Welcome to
Science a GoGo's
Discussion Forums
Please keep your postings on-topic or they will be moved to a galaxy far, far away.
Your use of this forum indicates your agreement to our terms of use.
So that we remain spam-free, please note that all posts by new users are moderated.


The Forums
General Science Talk        Not-Quite-Science        Climate Change Discussion        Physics Forum        Science Fiction

Who's Online Now
0 members (), 388 guests, and 4 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Posts
Top Posters(30 Days)
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
#30180 04/05/09 05:32 AM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 2
M
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
M
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 2
Einstein postulated that gravity results from matter distorting space-time. This was a remarkable observation as it suggested that space-time was 'malleable'.

What if the big bang was so violent that it itself distorted space-time. That is, space-time does not expand 'smoothly' and has massive 'eddies' or distortions.

Matter interacts or 'sees' these distortions as gravity. This would explain seeing the influence of gravity without detecting matter.

Dark Matter would be in fact no matter!

.
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,840
R
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
R
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,840
To some degree, you're idea is consistent with the current widely accepted inflation theory, which I quote.

"What if the big bang was so violent that it itself distorted space-time. That is, space-time does not expand 'smoothly' and has massive 'eddies' or distortions."

- Big Bang conditions were such that quantum fluctuations gave rise to inhomogeneities (or "distortions") that were, after the inflation event, magnified (astronomically!). So, the inflaton field had inhomogeneities and when it decayed into matter these inhomogeneities initiated the structure that we observe today. Even though space-time may expand smoothly, the inhomogeneities (your "eddies"), remain.

"Matter interacts or 'sees' these distortions as gravity."

- matter (and 'dark matter') causes the distortions in space-time that we refer to as gravitation.

http://www4.ncsu.edu/unity/lockers/users/f/felder/public/kenny/papers/inflation.html

"All of these results of inflation are theoretically attractive as explanations of the features we observe in the universe at large scales. Probably the most important success of inflation, however, is its explanation of the origin of inhomogeneities in the universe. I noted in the rubber sheet analogy above that any fluctuations existing before inflation get stretched out so much that we can no longer detect them. However quantum mechanics predicts that some fluctuations will always be produced at small scales. During inflation quantum mechanics causes microscopic fluctuations to be generated and inflation stretches these fluctuations out to large distances. The quantum fluctuations produced early in inflation get stretched out so much that we can't see them. As before it's as if we were standing on a hill so wide it looks flat to us.Fluctuations generated close to the end of inflation, however, produce "hills" whose width is still small enough today for us to see from one end of them to the other. The height of these hills, i.e. the differencein energy density from one place to another, is small because the quantum fluctuations that produced them represented small perturbations in the energy density.

When inflationary theory was developed in the 1980s people used this theory of stretched out quantum fluctuations to predict the differences that should be seen in the microwave background radiation from one part of the universe to another. These differences are so small that they weren't detected at all until the 1990s. More than just predicting the existence of thesefluctuations, inflation predicts in some detail the shape that they will have. Only in the last few years of the 1990s were measurements taken with enough accuracy to test the detailed predictions of inflation regarding thesefluctuations, and to date the data match these predictions perfectly.

It is primarily the successful prediction of the form of the microwave background fluctuations that has caused inflation to be generally accepted today by most early universe physicists. Since these small inhomogeneities are what later gave rise to galaxies, stars, and us, all of the structure we see in the universe arose because of quantum fluctuations."

"After inflation the energy in the inflaton field** would have quickly decayed into other particles and fields until eventually the universe consisted mainly of long-lived forms of energy such as protons, neutrons, electrons, and electromagnetic radiation."


** The inflaton field is the scalar field said to have caused inflation an instant after the Big Bang.


"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 498
Z
Superstar
Offline
Superstar
Z
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 498
Originally Posted By: matthewh
Dark Matter would be in fact no matter!
By my opinion dark matter is probably formed by both components: by so called cold dark matter, which is formed just by deformation of space-time and by so called hot dark matter, consisting of antimatter and matter particles, which are trapped by the space-time deformation.

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3
K
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
K
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3
definition of matter is anything that occupies space and has mass. if darkness seem to dont possess mass, then it could not be a matter. it would go that way, wounldnt it?

Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 498
Z
Superstar
Offline
Superstar
Z
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 498
Originally Posted By: kyle82
definition of matter is anything that occupies space and has mass. if darkness seem to dont possess mass, then it could not be a matter. it would go that way, wounldnt it?
What does it mean "it possess mass"? If it could mean "it exhibits a gravitational lensing" for example, then the dark matter indeed "possess mass".

Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 415
S
Senior Member
Offline
Senior Member
S
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 415
Originally Posted By: matthewh

Dark Matter would be in fact no matter!


===================================

Dark energy may be vacuum:
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2007-01/uoc-dem011607.php

====================

Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 498
Z
Superstar
Offline
Superstar
Z
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 498
Originally Posted By: socratus
..In modern terms the cosmological constant is viewed as a quantum mechanical phenomenon called the 'energy of the vacuum'. In other words, the energy of empty space. It is this energy that is causing the universe to accelerate. ..
The only problem is, dark matter attracts the visible matter and it increases the cohesion of galaxies - while dark energy accelerates their mutual repulsion...

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 2
M
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
M
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 2
Dark Matter - Changing the facts
"If there is a discrepancy between fact and theory - change the facts"- Einstein

Fact: Matter creates a space time distortion - gravity ('that sticks around').
Corollary: Gravity (that sticks around) must be caused by matter.
If matter as we know it can not be found to describe the existence of gravity there must be a new type of undetected matter causing it - dark matter.

Theory: Energy can create gravity (that sticks around).

The energy of the big bang created massive shock waves or distortions in space time which expand the universe. Matter interacts with these distortions to create the galaxies etc and is being pulled along by this expansion. This interaction 'anchors' these massive distortions and conserves the energy which created the distortions. We can actually 'see' these this on a cosmic scale i.e. Sloan Great Wall etc

I think in time the dark matter theory will be similar to the defunct 'stationary luminiferous ether' theory of the early 19th century which also proposed the existence another kind of unknown matter.

Thoughts?

Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 415
S
Senior Member
Offline
Senior Member
S
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 415
Originally Posted By: matthewh
Dark Matter - Changing the facts
"If there is a discrepancy between fact and theory - change the facts"- Einstein

Fact: Matter creates a space time distortion - gravity ('that sticks around').
Corollary: Gravity (that sticks around) must be caused by matter.
If matter as we know it can not be found to describe the existence of gravity there must be a new type of undetected matter causing it - dark matter.

Theory: Energy can create gravity (that sticks around).

The energy of the big bang created massive shock waves or distortions in space time which expand the universe. Matter interacts with these distortions to create the galaxies etc and is being pulled along by this expansion. This interaction 'anchors' these massive distortions and conserves the energy which created the distortions. We can actually 'see' these this on a cosmic scale i.e. Sloan Great Wall etc

I think in time the dark matter theory will be similar to the defunct 'stationary luminiferous ether' theory of the early 19th century which also proposed the existence another kind of unknown matter.

Thoughts?

================================
The Dark Matter is another official dogma of our astronomy.
/ V. H. Vergon. /
================================

Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 498
Z
Superstar
Offline
Superstar
Z
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 498
Originally Posted By: matthewh
...which also proposed the existence another kind of unknown matter...
I never heard of such stuff. Do you have some more detailed info about it?

Dark matter is consequence of omnidirectional space-time expansion in connection to limited speed of light. Why not just to connect well known and confirmed phenomena?

Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 93
M
Max Offline
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 93
In the 19th century, they thought that matter was in three forms. Gas, solid, and liquid. Then we discovered plasma, the fundamental state of all matter.

Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 498
Z
Superstar
Offline
Superstar
Z
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 498
Originally Posted By: Max
In the 19th century, they thought that matter was in three forms. Gas, solid, and liquid. Then we discovered plasma, the fundamental state of all matter.
IMO, plasma is only specific form of gas, I mean an ionized gas. We can consider a degenerated neutron or quark-gluon plasma as another forms of matter - but it still doesn't explain, what the matter really is.

Any ideas?

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 962
Superstar
Offline
Superstar
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 962
A Bose-Einstein condensate is another form of matter. That makes four. And quarkonium makes five.


If you don't care for reality, just wait a while; another will be along shortly. --A Rose

Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 498
Z
Superstar
Offline
Superstar
Z
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 498
Originally Posted By: Amaranth Rose II
A Bose-Einstein condensate is another form of matter. That makes four. And quarkonium makes five.
Why not. So we should develop a more general definition of matter. In AWT everything is made of nested space-time deforms, which appear/behave like pin-point particles from sufficiently large space-time perspective.

Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 415
S
Senior Member
Offline
Senior Member
S
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 415
#

God has to be a real fool to think
that the >99% Hidden Universe
has no control of his <1% Visible Universe. And if he
knew this then he would not be a god but a physicist.

And if he was a smart physicist he would be laughing
at just how much less than 1% a universe really needs
to appear really real.
/ O'no. /
===============================

Joined: May 2010
Posts: 410
I
Senior Member
Offline
Senior Member
I
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 410
Originally Posted By: matthewh
Dark Matter would be in fact no matter!


I think people seriously misunderstand what is meant by dark matter. Dark matter is simply non-luminous matter - i.e. stuff that isn't stars (or illuminated sufficiently by stars to be visible). As such, dark matter may be nothing more than planets, chunks of rock, etc. No need for grandiose, complex explanations.

Dark matter is also a fact - by which I mean its effects are observable (or, to be accurate, dark matter is the explanation for things we've observed). Notably, dark matter explains the rotation of galaxies (which rotate as though they weigh much more than the luminous matter in them would suggest) as well as gravitational lensing by galaxies (lensing being consistent with mass greater than that observed in the lensing galaxy, and the lensing patter being consistent with a spherical lens [galaxies are generally non-spherical])

Bryan


UAA...CAUGCUAUGAUGGAACGAACAAUUAUGGAA
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 410
I
Senior Member
Offline
Senior Member
I
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 410
Originally Posted By: Max
In the 19th century, they thought that matter was in three forms. Gas, solid, and liquid. Then we discovered plasma, the fundamental state of all matter.


Plasma is not a "fundamental state of all matter". Plasma is a state of matter in which the electrons are no longer present in orbitals around the nucleus. Most other forms of matter (solids, liquids and gas) have electrons bound in these orbitals; meaning they bear no resemblance to plasma. If anything, plasma is the outsider.

I say "most" instead of "all" other forms of matter, as I'm unsure of the electron configurations of the quark matter and condensates Rose brought up. "Most" may be "all but plasma".

Bryan


UAA...CAUGCUAUGAUGGAACGAACAAUUAUGGAA
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,100
K
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
K
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,100
Haha, who's resuscitating an old thread now? :P

I reckon those spam robots are pretty cool because they do that all the time. Sometimes conversation fizzles out on here otherwise.


Link Copied to Clipboard
Newest Members
debbieevans, bkhj, jackk, Johnmattison, RacerGT
865 Registered Users
Sponsor

Science a GoGo's Home Page | Terms of Use | Privacy Policy | Contact UsokÂþ»­¾W
Features | News | Books | Physics | Space | Climate Change | Health | Technology | Natural World

Copyright © 1998 - 2016 Science a GoGo and its licensors. All rights reserved.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5