Science a GoGo's Home Page Forums General Discussion Not-Quite-Science Forum Evolution and Creation in the news.

Good news: http://msnbc.msn.com/id/14137751/
Balance of power in the Kansas Board of Education shifts away from the ignorant fanatics.


Bad news: http://msnbc.msn.com/id/14122311/
Ignorant fanatics to open $25M museum in Petersburg, KY next May. They're worse than cockroaches.

TFF, I like reading your posts and you're normally measured, but this is adopting the language of the fundamentalists.

Blacknad.

But I do feel angry at this stupid museum. These Christian's scriptures tell them to go out and feed the hungry, clothe the naked etc. and what do they do?

They spend $25,000,000 on this pointless project. What a disgrace.

Blacknad.

its one thing to feed people and preach while your at it. but to try to claim, without any science to back you up, that all the dinosaurs and things died at the same time (IE flood) shows a total disinterest in the truth.

what bothers me most is that the polls and things that they used to show that people support this, presupposes that the people that will take the polls are Christians. Its basically says either your a christian or your not an American and therefore your vote does not count.

Dear Blacknad,

You're right. It was petty of me.

I do believe they are promoting ignorance.

I do believe they are not attempting to win an argument, so much as create confusion in the minds of the unwary.

I do believe they are very dishonest.

They are not like cockroaches, but they are a nuisance.

promoting is definitely the right word. the people wanting the bibles version of history to be taught next to the scientific versing are saying that anyone can make up their own mind, but if it is taught to young kids whose parents are into it in a big way, how are they going to be able to argue with the statement many will make; "if it was not real they would not teach it in school". Adults would see though that in a heartbeat, but young kids are a lot more impressionable.

I'm not really sure if you can really call them dishonest, since they believe it wholeheartedly. just because its wrong does not make promoting it dishonest, not if they really do believe. Think of people that believe in Tinkerbell. they do everything they can to get to never never land.

Blacknad wrote:
"But I do feel angry at this stupid museum. These Christian's scriptures tell them to go out and feed the hungry, clothe the naked etc. and what do they do?

They spend $25,000,000 on this pointless project. What a disgrace."

Well said Blacknad. You might take a moment to reflect on our past exchanges and my argument that the problem is not what people choose to believe but rather the hypocrisy.

No IFF: They ARE cockroaches AND they are a nuisance.

dehammer wrote:
"I'm not really sure if you can really call them dishonest, since they believe it wholeheartedly"

That's what they claim but I don't believe it. People who truly believe don't feel the need to shout about it in public. The ones that raise their voices the loudest are the ones most insecure in their belief.

or perhaps the ones that believe their beleif must be shared by everyone. of course there is no reason they could not be both insecure and at the same time want everyone to believe it. after all if everyone believes then it has to be true :rolleyes:

seriously ive known many of these type people. they believe it is their god ordered right and responsiblity to force everyone into believing it. well, at least some of them really do believe that.

Dehammer,

I know many Christians in the UK and not one of them believes they have the right to force anyone to believe anything. For a start, they are simply not stupid enough to think that enforced belief actually IS belief, or that it has any value. I don't even know of any personally who believe they have the right to talk about their beliefs with someone who doesn't want to listen.

I know the people you are talking about exist but in my experience they are the tiny minority. I do have suspicions though that the American Christian is more likely to be a less reasonable creature. Don't know whether that is true or if so why it is.

We don't have a big problem over here with single issue Christians like your anti-abortionists or your creationists or your gay haters etc. America, however, seems to be able to churn them out by the bucket load. I cringe every time I see one of your Tele-Evangelists. If I didn't find them so excruciating, I would watch them for the sheer comedy value.

Blacknad.

there is a wide spectrum of people in the belief here. we have everyone (or so it seems) from those who can get along with people of all beliefs to those who are not nearly as smart as those you mention. Although, i really believe its more stubbornness than stupidness.

small but very vocal. part of the problems is that there are so many of them and human behaviour runs the full guantlet with them too. smart to stupid, stubborn to flexible, tolerant to very intolerant, its all there. no matter what someone believes, there is some other christian that will tell them they have the correct answer to the problem.

it would be funny if they were not so serious and painfull about it all.

Blacknad wrote:
"I do have suspicions though that the American Christian is more likely to be a less reasonable creature."

Again ... it is a minority on a country-wide basis. But in some regions, The South-East through Texas it is a very sizable minority. These folks are among the planet's worst hypocrites ... citing precendents that don't exist and pontificating about the founding fathers' intent when they are so ignorant of the facts as to be comical. Not 0.1% of them has ever actually read Adams or Jefferson. If they did they'd probably have their likenesses removed from the country's money.

To give you a sense of how large the disconnect:

John Adams, second president of the US, labeled the Christian religion as the "most bloody religion that ever existed."(1) The Senate, during Adams presidency, ratified the Treaty of Tripoli that proclaimed, "the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion."(2)

(1) John Adams, letter to F.A. Vander Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816.
(2) Treaty of Tripoli, 1797, Article 11.

and

James Madison, 4th President of the US:
Proclaimed Christianity to cause "pride and indolence in the clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry
and persecution."(3)

(3) James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785.

and my personal favorite:

Ethan Allen stopped his own wedding until the presiding judge affirmed that "God" referred to the God of Nature and not to the God of the Bible.(4)

(4) Sense of History compiled by American Heritage Press Inc., p. 103 (1985, American Heritage Press Inc., New York NY)

BTW: Tele-evangelism = legalized fraud

I have the misfortune to be a witch in the bible belt. I find it rather irratating that most christians here seem to believe that all the signer of the decleration were christians and that the freedom of religion basically spells out as freedom to believe in christanity. freedom of religion means all religions from athiesm to christanity to wicca to anything else. many of the signers of the decleration were deities, who dont believe in christ being the son of god. tell that to a some christians around here and youll end up with black eyes and worse if your lucky.

thanks for those quotes and sourses da, ill keep those handy. btb, i like that definition.

To the vast majority of people in the US ... freedom of religion means the freedom to be a Catholic or a Lutheran or a (white) Southern Baptist.

Dehammer,

Sorry about the situation you find yourself in. American Christianity (in the main) disgusts and scares me at the same time.

It must be so much worse for those who have to live amongst it.

I spent some time debating with some right wing American Christians on godandscience.org and I came away amazed at what they were capable of believing.

Blacknad.

DA, i cant agree that its the vast majority, but instead, the loudest minority. otherwise your right.

thanks blacknad. its scary how some people can be so smart at most things, then just show a major steak of stupidity when it comes to religions.

Dan,

Even if the founding fathers had intended for America to be Christian and follow Christian morality etc. it should make no difference.

Solutions to issues should be decided solely on their merits. It is irrelevant who agrees or who intended what.

Maybe I can only say that because we don't have a constitution here in Blighty and I probably don't understand the full implications of what it is to have a constitution.


And as for the powerful Christian lobby over there, their numbers and wealth seem to have added to their corruption. I'm okay with them wanting to impact society (you may not be) and try to effect change in accordance with their conscience, but they should do do it openly, honestly and fairly and not manipulate the political process as they seem to do.

They should realise that even a fair outcome, unfairly won, is never fair.

Even from the Christian position, God gave people a mind to freely choose for themselves, so who are Christians to disrespect that right, and trample over it by manipulation, fear or even violence.

As for Tele-Evangelists, I couldn't agree more - they are frauds and corrupt, and they should (at the very least) be banned from asking for money on TV.


Oh and don't get me started ? What are the 'noble and good' US Christian lobby doing while my wife's country is being flattened by Israel? Where is their voice? Or is a little death here and there acceptable as long as it's not on their doorstep?

Blacknad.

im afraid that they are very NIMBY (not in my back yard) orinted.

dehammer wrote:
"its scary how some people can be so smart at most things, then just show a major steak of stupidity when it comes to religions."

That's what brainwashing does. I have no doubt that the people in Germany today shiver at the thought of what happened in 1939 and wonder how it happened.

Look at America 2006 and you can catch a glimpse.

now THATS a scary thought