Welcome to
Science a GoGo's
Discussion Forums
Please keep your postings on-topic or they will be moved to a galaxy far, far away.
Your use of this forum indicates your agreement to our terms of use.
So that we remain spam-free, please note that all posts by new users are moderated.


The Forums
General Science Talk        Not-Quite-Science        Climate Change Discussion        Physics Forum        Science Fiction

Who's Online Now
0 members (), 619 guests, and 1 robot.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Posts
Top Posters(30 Days)
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
#11095 03/10/06 08:21 AM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 4
R
rose Offline OP
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
R
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 4
some people believe that finger prints on the hand can tell their future. there are incidents when the predictions came true in certain parts of Asia.it's amazing that
every person on the earth has unique prints on his hands.it's bemusing that some people believe in horoscopes.how many of you think that these beliefs are of any substance

how many of you think that finger prints on hand can predict future
single choice
Votes accepted starting: 01/01/70 12:00 AM
You must vote before you can view the results of this poll.
.
#11096 03/11/06 02:01 AM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 92
D
Member
Offline
Member
D
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 92
Finger prints can tell who done it but not whose going to do it. They can mess up a wine glass and show you didn't wash your car. I give it two out of 10.

#11097 03/13/06 07:26 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 191
J
Senior Member
Offline
Senior Member
J
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 191
"On Snowflakes and Fingerprints"

throw in zebra stripes and there's the beginnings of a poem here, Amaranth.

How about it? Anyone feel creative today?


~Justine~
#11098 03/14/06 06:59 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 191
J
Senior Member
Offline
Senior Member
J
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 191
I'm wondering if anything natural, besides the elements of the periodic table, are truly identical.

No two eyes are alike, no two mouse tails, no two rose petals, no two quartz points, no two rivers or clouds, no two personalities, etc.

Is everything organic unique?


~Justine~
#11099 03/14/06 08:37 PM
A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A
The uniqueness of such things is, IMHO, one of the best arguments for random developmental origin of those things, in other words, favoring chaos theory over ID. If things were ID'd there would be only one way for things to develop and all would adhere strictly to that one design. The multiplicity of variance points to development along certain main lines with random (fractal?) variations in the final product. For example, everyone has finger prints (unless they have been burned off or otherwise destroyed) yet no two are exactly alike. Form follows function; the purpose of fingerprints is to give a grip on things, the form is random enough to give them uniqueness.

#11100 03/15/06 10:35 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 901
B
Superstar
Offline
Superstar
B
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 901
Amaranth said - "If things were ID'd there would be only one way for things to develop and all would adhere strictly to that one design."

- Surely any entity intelligent enough to design would be able to design a system where fractal (I like your use of that word) variations are inherent. I can't see that it automatically follows that all things would adhere to one design. An intelligent designer wouldn't be so limited that it couldn't manage a bit of variation and uniqueness. In fact as chaos plays such a part, why wouldn't the whole system fall apart due to chaotic butterfly effects. It seems we have just enough chaos to be useful.

Not that I would argue for an intelligent designer that constantly meddles in creation because it was unable to get it right from the outset.

It's precisely the outset where the question sits. The Cosmological Constant is interesting because it points to some exceptionally fortuitous circumstances or some intelligent fine tuning. In fact this universe is shot through with profound coincidences of structure.

Fine Tuning of the Physical Constants of the Universe

Parameter ............... Max. Deviation

Ratio of Electrons:Protons .......... 1:10 to the 37
Ratio of Electromagnetic Force:Gravity .......... 1:10 to the 40
Expansion Rate of Universe .......... 1:10 to the 55
Mass of Universe .......... 1:10 to the 59
Cosmological Constant .......... 1:10 to the 120

?These numbers represent the maximum deviation from the accepted values, that would either prevent the universe from existing now, not having matter, or be unsuitable for any form of life.?

- godandscience.org

Regarding the ratio of electrons:protons:

?One part in 10 to the 37 is such an incredibly sensitive balance that it is hard to visualize. The following analogy might help: Cover the entire North American continent in dimes all the way up to the moon, a height of about 239,000 miles (In comparison, the money to pay for the U.S. federal government debt would cover one square mile less than two feet deep with dimes.). Next, pile dimes from here to the moon on a billion other continents the same size as North America. Paint one dime red and mix it into the billions of piles of dimes. Blindfold a friend and ask him to pick out one dime. The odds that he will pick the red dime are one in 10 to the 37.?

- Big Bang Refined by Fire by Dr. Hugh Ross

The list of fine tuning needed for the outcome we see just goes on and on.

This universe is, by the admission of many atheists, improbable.

?In an article entitled, "Disturbing Implications of a Cosmological Constant" researchers from Stanford and MIT examined some of the "problems" associated with a cosmological constant. In their paper, they stated that the implications of a cosmological constant "lead to very deep paradoxes, which seem to require major revisions of our usual assumptions." They admit that "there is no universally accepted explanation of how the universe got into such a special state" and that their study, "Far from providing a solution to the problem, we will be led to a disturbing crisis." They also admit, "Some unknown agent initially started the inflation high up on its potential, and the rest is history."

- http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/hep-th/pdf/0208/0208013.pdf

So it is at the front end of the universe ? its coming into being ? that I look to for the possibility of intelligent design. I wouldn?t even bother trying to argue from the physical laws and ongoing processes. They were set up to achieve the outcome we see. Evolution was an inevitability, and we were the inevitable outcome of evolution. Of course, others disagree.

Related quotes from non-religious scientists:

Fred Hoyle (British astrophysicist): "A common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a superintellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as with chemistry and biology, and that there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature. The numbers one calculates from the facts seem to me so overwhelming as to put this conclusion almost beyond question."

George Ellis (British astrophysicist): "Amazing fine tuning occurs in the laws that make this [complexity] possible. Realization of the complexity of what is accomplished makes it very difficult not to use the word 'miraculous' without taking a stand as to the ontological status of the word."

Paul Davies (British astrophysicist): "There is for me powerful evidence that there is something going on behind it all....It seems as though somebody has fine-tuned nature?s numbers to make the Universe....The impression of design is overwhelming".

Paul Davies: "The laws [of physics] ... seem to be the product of exceedingly ingenious design... The universe must have a purpose".

Stephen Hawking (British astrophysicist): "Then we shall? be able to take part in the discussion of the question of why it is that we and the universe exist. If we find the answer to that, it would be the ultimate triumph of human reason - for then we would know the mind of God."

Roger Penrose (mathematician and author): "I would say the universe has a purpose. It's not there just somehow by chance."

Ed Harrison (cosmologist): "Here is the cosmological proof of the existence of God ? the design argument of Paley ? updated and refurbished. The fine tuning of the universe provides prima facie evidence of deistic design. Take your choice: blind chance that requires multitudes of universes or design that requires only one.... Many scientists, when they admit their views, incline toward the teleological or design argument."

Antony Flew (Professor of Philosophy, former atheist, author, and debater) "It now seems to me that the findings of more than fifty years of DNA research have provided materials for a new and enormously powerful argument to design."

Blacknad.

#11101 05/06/06 10:18 PM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 636
J
jjw Offline
Superstar
Offline
Superstar
J
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 636
Finger prints, as of now, have been secured from less than half of the people on this earth. The prospect for duplicates is still out there and the prospect for machines to lack the skill to make absolutely positive distinctions is always with us.

http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/200311/msg00095.html

I never did criminal defense but had I done so fingerprints would have been a major area of research for me. I just do not trust them. We now know that DNA can be planted quite easilly by hair, sperm, bodily substances and in other ways, especiallly blood. Fingerprints are also subject to the whims of techknowlogy- you leave them everyplace you go. In the absence of an air tight alabi you can be convicted because of the common belief that these items are unique.
jjw

#11102 05/07/06 05:26 PM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,136
D
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
D
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,136
Even if there is a second set of identical fingerprints out there ... so what.

The odds of the police accidentally picking up the wrong person but having identical prints is so low that no jury would let the defendant walk.

Eye witness testimony is worthless and yet the number of convictions remains high.


DA Morgan
#11103 05/07/06 11:24 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,089
D
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
D
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,089
my understanding of predictions based on a palm, orb, tea leaf, or what ever is the seers ability to see the future in these, not in anything inherent in the palm, orb, tea leaf or what ever.

then again it could just be the ability of the seer to be vague enough to allow you to find the answers after she or he sends you into that direction, based on things he or she observed about the person whos future is "read".


the more man learns, the more he realises, he really does not know anything.
#11104 05/08/06 12:47 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 636
J
jjw Offline
Superstar
Offline
Superstar
J
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 636
DA:

Your conviction that you know something is not well suited.

People are out there duplicating and/or manufacturing finger prints. Now in your case, given the opportunity, I might be tempted to plead you guilty- but that was not my thing.
jjw


Link Copied to Clipboard
Newest Members
debbieevans, bkhj, jackk, Johnmattison, RacerGT
865 Registered Users
Sponsor

Science a GoGo's Home Page | Terms of Use | Privacy Policy | Contact UsokÂþ»­¾W
Features | News | Books | Physics | Space | Climate Change | Health | Technology | Natural World

Copyright © 1998 - 2016 Science a GoGo and its licensors. All rights reserved.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5