Welcome to
Science a GoGo's
Discussion Forums
Please keep your postings on-topic or they will be moved to a galaxy far, far away.
Your use of this forum indicates your agreement to our terms of use.
So that we remain spam-free, please note that all posts by new users are moderated.


The Forums
General Science Talk        Not-Quite-Science        Climate Change Discussion        Physics Forum        Science Fiction

Who's Online Now
0 members (), 181 guests, and 2 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Posts
Top Posters(30 Days)
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,031
T
Megastar
OP Offline
Megastar
T
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,031
I found this rather interesting little link. Has the countries of the world listed according to how few believe in a God. Seems Sweden is the least God-believing country in the world.

http://evolutionspace.wordpress.com/2007/05/03/worldwide-atheism-trend-and-pattern-a-summary/

From the article:

"In general, we can conclude that non-believing is noticeably higher in developed countries, in particular the Scandinavian countries. One interesting exception is that of Vietnam, which ranks in second place due to the “coercive atheism” - atheism imposed by dictators. Europe, which has been termed “secular Europe” by some, shows convincingly that it has the highest rate of non-believers. Japan and South Korea come as no surprise in the top 10, as both countries are historically and traditionally non-God-believing societies. Japan is often cited by me as an example against the stupid assertion that you cannot have morality without God. It is a country with one of, if not the, lowest crime rate in the world, and according to the two studies referenced by the article, it has 64% and 65% of its population not believing in God (and somewhat surprisingly, 55% not believing in Buddha). Israel is actually a huge surprise on the list"

I liked a comment from a reader:

"Myself I am confortable with being an ignostic.
That is, I don’t accept the question of existence of a “god” as a valid one, since “god” is a human invention without any verifiable empiric methods to test it. You might as well ask yourself if an invisible teacup is orbiting mars. Both are nonsense questions and can be ignored as such."

.
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,840
R
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
R
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,840
It seems that there has always been, for the inquiring human mind, the need to know the ultimate purpose of existence. Even Japan had its gods. People of many nations and cultures appear to be abandoning irrational, divisive 'God hypotheses', but I strongly suspect that most retain an essential insight into an inexpressible 'purpose'. Such insight doubtless fails to qualify, in the conventional sense, as theistic; yet it was probably always behind the failed hypotheses and, in itself, it is the answer to that age old question 'why?'.


"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 192
T
Tim Offline
Senior Member
Offline
Senior Member
T
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 192
"Japan is often cited by me as an example against the stupid assertion that you cannot have morality without God. It is a country with one of, if not the, lowest crime rate in the world."

That is true, but I have heard that that statistic is due to public executions and hangings; which use fear to show others what would happen if they do such. And Japan has a noble and chivalrous system (well, it did, but I am guessing that is now lessening due to globalization, as the samuris (sp?) are dwindling (no more?).

"It seems that there has always been, for the inquiring human mind, the need to know the ultimate purpose of existence."
Bingo! I am reading a book entitled "View from the Center of the Universe" which examines such and our current view of the universe. It quotes Hawking saying something along the lines of 'It seems logically improbable that the universe would even had existed in the first place, I do not know why it does.'
Each and every culture (with perhaps a few excetions) had their own mythology or gods or beings they worshipped. The ancient Egyptians, the Greeks, Romans, native Americans, Christians, Buddhists, Eskimos, Aztecs, etc. But today, asserts the book, we do not have a unified beleif. Since we are so globilized and so tolerant of beleifs, the Western world has thousands of mythologies, creation accounts, scientific theories, and creeds. Accordingly, we have no defining beleif of our universe at the current time, and have not since the Newtonian revolution (says the book).

I have not finished it yet, so I do not know the solutions the writers suggest. But so far it is saying that all the mythologies, like the Romans', were correct for them, as the Judeo-Christian stories were true to their beleivers, as were the stories of Quetzal were to the ancient Aztecs living in Mexico. It is not for us to hypocritically say that evolution and a however-billion-year-old universe is Fact with a capital F, for the ancient Egyptians thought the same about Osiris as the keeper of the dead.

Why?

Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,840
R
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
R
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,840
Originally Posted By: Tim
"Japan is often cited by me as an example against the stupid assertion that you cannot have morality without God. It is a country with one of, if not the, lowest crime rate in the world."

That is true, but I have heard that that statistic is due to public executions and hangings;

Tim, that appears to be unfounded hearsay:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Japan
and
http://web.telia.com/~u15509119/ny_sida_11.htm - "executions in Japan are still carried out in silence, and the public and the relatives are informed late."

Tim

From your last paragraph, it appears that the authors fail to distinguish between the modern understanding of evolution and the ancient Egyptian understanding of their pantheon. I find it hard to believe that scientists are confusing science with metaphysics. There's no hypocrisy in making the distinction.

I just read the Introduction of the book (The View from the Center of the Universe):

http://viewfromthecenter.com/excerpts/introduction.html

"Prescientific people had believable answers to big questions that became impossible to answer once we started to demand scientific accuracy. Does time run in one direction or is it cyclical? Has the universe always existed, or did it come into being? If it had a beginning, how did it start? What is it made of? How does it work? How do we humans fit in? People hardly even ask such fundamental questions any more..."

People what? Are they kidding? grin

"Mythic language is not the possession of any specific religion but is a human tool, and we need it today to talk about the meaning of our universe"

So, it looks as though the authors are proposing a new mythology as a substitute for the old (I could be quite wrong, not having read the book). If they are, they have every right to do so; but all I would ask of a scientist is to do the science and avoid confusing it, in the public mind, with metaphysics.



"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 264
W
Senior Member
Offline
Senior Member
W
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 264
Public Execution in Japan is hard to imagine but here's an anecdote from a guy I worked with. He's a Filipine National who worked ten years in Saudi Arabia (Construction) before coming here to Samoa. He didn't like to hang around the area near the Soccer Stadium in Riyadh because of one bad experience he had there. One day, out of nowhere, a bunch of cops started rounding people up, shaking these little steel rods at them, herding them into the Stadium. It was to witness Hangings and dismemberment of the hands or feet of convicted criminals. The proceedings were in Arabic, so he didn't understand what was coming over the Loudspeakers, but the message was clear. "DON'T TRY ANY [censored]".

He said that just before the trapdoor would open, or the ax would fall, the whole arena would shout, in unison,"Something about Allah".

If you take a cold, analytical look at it, you'll see that Religion is a "tool", and a pretty effective one, at that. Cultural mores play a huge part in the moderation of Human Behaviour. For example, the "Wave", ubiquitous at Sporting Events in the US and Canada, is NEVER done in the Islamic World. Apparently it's the height of rudeness to raise your arms in public like that. Cut peoples' hands off, sure, but just don't do The Wave.

Last edited by Wolfman; 08/03/07 11:20 PM.
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,840
R
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
R
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,840
Wolfman: "If you take a cold, analytical look at it..."

Ayaan Hirsi Ali takes a cold, analytical look at it: http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfai...id=opinionsbox1

How fortunate it is to have been born in a geographical region strongly influenced by 'infidel' atheist ideologies.


"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 264
W
Senior Member
Offline
Senior Member
W
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 264
C'mon, now, that's Yellow Journalism if I've ever seen it. She's a woman with a mission, no boubt about that, but to really appreciate how strongly those woman are oppressed in the Islamic World, you have to go there. It took me about 6 weeks to go from the Pakistani-Indian border to Istanbul in 1972. Aside from an Irish girl in Kabul, I didn't see a woman's CALF in all that time. And when I did, it almost blew me away. She was getting out of a taxi in Istanbul, I'll never forget it.

And the thing is, the women don't even know how suppressed they are, it's the only thing they know.
If you get a chance, have a read of the Life of Muhammad written by Ibn Ishaq 100 years after the Prophet died. You may have to visit a University Library, I think it's no longer in publication. Muhammad was far from the "Christlike" figure that Muslim Scholars would have us believe. Apparently there are four Rules of Jurisprudence regarding the treatment of Infidels (Jews, Christians, Zoroastrians, Hindus, Bhuddists)as mandated by Muhammad. As I recall they were Death, Slavery, Ransom or Release. Release is heavily frowned upon by Allah, but nothing exhalts the Almighty Allah quite like Death by Beheading. Muhammad himself once sanctioned the beheadings of between 600 and 900 Male members of the Quariza, a tribe of Jews. The Women and Children were enslaved and Muhammad himself purchased a nubile young woman named Ryana. The men were lined up next to a long trench where their heads were deposited, with the women and children forced to watch. Yes it's hard to picture Jesus doing anything like that.

For years Mulim leaders have struggled trying to live up to the standards set by Muhammad. The founder of the Mughal Empire, a short-lived "Empire" that stretched as far Northern Pakistan and India, Babur, is today regarded as a paragon of Muslim Tolerance. After ransacking the city of Iberian Toledo, he had all the heads cut off all Infidels who had been captured or had surrendered, and had a tower built of their skulls. Boy, I'll bet Allah was impressed!

If "Fervor" is a measure of any given religions authenticity, then Islam wins, hands down, fughedabadit. Log on to a site called "BEHEADING EUGENE ARMSTRONG" if you don't believe me. He was a 54 year old American Construction Contractor captured in Baghdad a few years back. Be warned, it's not for the faint-of-heart. And don't have a small child peering over your shoulder at the monitor.

Last edited by Wolfman; 08/04/07 10:17 PM.
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,840
R
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
R
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,840
Wolfman: "that's Yellow Journalism if I've ever seen it".
- I disagree.

"but to really appreciate how strongly those woman are oppressed in the Islamic World, you have to go there"

- I do agree with that. I've been there. I travelled that route, west to east, in 1975.

I recall the news of Eugene Armstrong. It's happening now in the south of Thailand. It's what Muslims do, or when they don't do it, it's what they passively support, for Allah etc. I don't see the any outcry from the Muslim public. Incidentally, my brother-in law, working for the UN, narrowly escaped being butchered in Indonesia. His friend wasn't so lucky. I won't relate the details. It won't help.


"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

Link Copied to Clipboard
Newest Members
debbieevans, bkhj, jackk, Johnmattison, RacerGT
865 Registered Users
Sponsor

Science a GoGo's Home Page | Terms of Use | Privacy Policy | Contact UsokĀž»­¾W
Features | News | Books | Physics | Space | Climate Change | Health | Technology | Natural World

Copyright © 1998 - 2016 Science a GoGo and its licensors. All rights reserved.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5