Science a GoGo's Home Page Forums General Discussion General Science Discussion Forum lets discuss japans reactors

according to things I have read there are possibly 600,000
spent fuel rods in the 2 plants in fukushima japan.

how could these fuel rods be quickly cooled down?

would it be safe to drill a hole under the plants and set off a underground nuclear explosion that would
dig a big enough hole that the ocean would rush in
and keep the rods cool.

can a lead shield keep the rods from heating up?

would sand keep them from heating up as it might turn
to glass and keep air from getting to the rods?

any sudgestions?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1870730456324813920#

some of the above test look as if they could dig a smaller hole and drop the entire 1-4 straight down in a 300 ft deep
hole.

as in 8:10 into it.

but if your going to do that youd better drop all of them at the same time.


the two explosion are below.
#1 and #3 I think

1


2

according to the above videos it looks like
they could get more energy from the hydrogen produced.

Anything that mixes the radioactive material with the environment is bad. In the UK they've been having expensive problems trying to dig up old nuclear waste that was dumped in a hole in the ground. Now they prefer to keep things contained instead of permanently contaminating the water table.

Regarding the lead shields. They already tried putting boron in the water, which absorbs more of the neutron energy, I think, and slows down the reactions. I guess they can't actually climb in there to install parts.

well considering that they cant even find the missing
spent rods from one of the reactors that exploded I would
think that ground water contamination is already accomplished
and the entire area will be condoned off due to the hazzards
of radio active materials.

lets not forget that the first explosion of a reactor occured as the first wave rolled in.

any radio active material that mixed with that water was spread throughout the entire area.

any radio active material that fell into that water also mixed into the ground and will eventually make its way into
the ground water system.

then it snowed , more water to further wash the radio active material downwards in the ground.

it is a dead zone.

including any fishing areas that were available.

so they shouldnt worry about what has already been accomplished and worry about what will be accomplished if
they continue to allow these explosions and radio active releases to occur.

I say drop them as deep as you can get them to drop.

maybe multiple underground detonations to form both a cooling pond ( huge ) and a containment area to prevent the
cooling waters from readily mixing with the ocean.

lets all hope that they are not more concerned about their
pride than they are the safety of the rest of the world
because 600,000 fuel rods burning up and releasing material into the atmosphere would make chernobyl
look like a childs toy in comparison to a actual semi truck.

they are calling the japan reactors chernobyl on steroids.

Could be. But don't confuse the types of radioactive material. Water that's been irradiated becomes radioactive, but mostly with short lives atoms. This is a danger to people in contact with it at the time, but not for long term contamination.

On the other hand, fuel rods themselves are full of all sorts of heavy elements not normally found in water and the environment, and this can be more radioactive, and with longer half lives so it create a long term risk. That's the stuff they're trying to avoid being released into the air, and what was released into the air at Chernobyl.


Why? There isn't even a risk of a meltdown last I heard.

Full Meltdown under way --- Mar 30, 2011

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MognnB0g56Y

http://www.dcbureau.org/201103151304/Nat...mber-three.html



in 2010 reactor 3 started using MOX rods that are
part Uranium and part Plutonium.

Reactor #3 is the reactor that exploded March 14 2011

dont believe everything you dont hear.

look at 911 --- when those in charge of safety allowed
emergency workers to go into ground zero without proper
safety equipment.

trying to calm the masses with lies and deception.

I wonder how good of a radiation shielding material
that blue plastic tarp is?

when 36 inches of packed earth or 4 inches of pure lead
is required to cut it by 10.

and now .001 inches of blue tarp?

Blue tarp can stop solid dust particles escaping. That's the bigger worry. Actual radiation doesn't matter for people outside the plant, it just flies off into the sky (neutron radiation). The other types can't travel through air very far at all and aren't worth blocking.

First Off

each of those guys that are there is a HERO in my book.

they have decided to stay to save the world knowing that
staying will mean certain death either short term or long
term.

---------------

what I have seen so far on the tv and in videos.

cheap respirators.
paper suits.
the food they have to eat isnt enought to help their
bodies keep there imune system strong.

they dont seem to have a containment area where they can
rest and relax between the exposure intervals.

lead blocks are dirt cheap...

$1.30 a POUND...


since these HEROS are doing their best you would think that
the energy company there would at least compensate their efforts with a little enjoyment.
food !!!
showers!!!
a compartment for interval time and for sleeping!!!

and with better safety measures.

and if the blue tarp is to prevent the release of dust!

forget that , that wont work.

every step they take from the reactor to wherever they are going some of the dust they have gathered on their paper suits is falling off onto the ground.

they should have a fresh salt water shower before they leave the reactor area , but of course they would need something other than paper suits for this to work.

its amazing how technology falls by the wayside in emergencies.

I sure hope that this event will have some positive results
as far as safety and building and reactor design is concerned.

even the workers in chernobyl had air tanks for breathing.

and theres a U.S. Aircraft Carrier just off shore that has plenty of OBA's surely they could spare a few of them.

As odd as it seems, the first two are actually more than sufficient for what they are dealing with. contrary to poplar belief, the kinds of radiation released by reactors is generally of fairly low penetrating power. The main isotopes being released as Cesium-137 and Iodine-131. Both are beta emitters, and beta radiation is generally of minimal danger when we are exposed to it externally - most of their energy (and thus damaging potential) can be abrogated by a thin layer of low-density material like paper or plastic. Combined with the absorbency of the dead layer of skin overtop of the living skin, a paper suit is more than ample protection.

Ironically, paper is actually safer than lead or other dense materials. If you slow a beta particle too quickly it releases its kinetic energy as x-rays (Bremsstrahlung radiation).

The respirators are also ideal - while beta exposure to the skin is of minor concern, and easily abrogated with a paper/plastic suit, internal exposure via lungs or food is a major concern - that is where cancer (and if enough is consumed - radiation poisoning) comes from. But as cheap as their respirators seem, it is the industry standard because they work well. They look cheap because they are single-use units; which is far safer than trying to maintain a multi-use unit.

As for food, I lived in Japan for a few months and was astounded by how little they ate. But I doubt they're malnourished; the people I lived and worked with were far too vibrant for that...

Bryan

bryan

there may even be a lotion you could apply
instead of wearing any "clothing protection" at all.

perhaps they could just have a misting station that they could walk under and the lotion mist would attach itself to them.

or possibly they could have a room where a atomizer could
atomize the tiny minute particles that are needed for protection.

since there really is no concern for any radiation there
I think that just thinking that they are protected might even work.

there was probably more radiation in the concrete itself even before the meltdowns occured.

just naturaly occuring radiation is most likely more dangerous than any that is found in and around the japan reactors wouldnt you think?

of course the extremely unharmfull radiation couldnt possibly get into the workers eyes or pores or ears that are not covered by the respirators , that just isnt possible.

WOW..

makes you wonder dont it.

it just goes to show/prove that the smarter we get the stupider we become.

stupid smart people

I just found a really good video that shows how much
higher there sea wall needs to be.

the guy taking this video must have felt like the whole island was sinking.

he starts off on a lower level and keeps having to move upwards because of the ever increasing sea level.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2B-lp2hhTYM&feature=relmfu

it looks like 3 more meters of sea wall height would have diverted this disaster.

and this shows why governments need taxes and they need to
maintain a proper means of employment for those who pay taxes.

unlike the american republican politicians who have destroyed the american economy through trade measures
that are un constitutional.

republicans seem to think that governments dont need tax money to provide proper protection to their peoples and that their peoples dont need good jobs , but they do believe that the chinese need those good jobs more and a strong military and a rich government that can loan the american government money.

luckily the japanese government had the sea wall in place or this disaster would have been much more devastating.

because the sea wall reduced the speed of the water even if it did not completely stop the water from flowing over the sea wall.

Unlikely. To safely stop beta radiation requires a series of impacts between the betas and atoms in a low-density material. You'll not be able to replicate that effect with a "lotion", as ample protection would require it to be fairly dense, leading to Bremsstrahlung.


There is a concern; inhaled, ingested or otherwise internalised radioactive material is extremely harmful. I was simply pointing out that the percautians their workers are taking are appropriate for the radiation to which they're exposed.


The danger presented is relative. On a per-exposure scale, the stuff at the reactor is quite dangerous. Over a lifetime, the amounts the workers are being exposed to is minor.


Contamination via pores is extremely unlikely, due to the flow of material from the pores. Eyes and ears are covered by the protective equipment, although both represent poor conduates for material into the body.

Bryan

Well, I certainly would opt for the paper suit now that
I have a clearer understanding of how safe they are compaired
to the even less efective lotions I sudgested.

I can always carry a tampon in case the paper suit gets snagged on something , you know like a plug to seal out
the contaminants even though the paper suits are most likely
stronger than 4" of hardened steel.

maybe just a regular bandaid or some gauze pads !!

should be even cheaper and more effective when dealing with radioactivties n such.

and as far as the contaminants entering through the pores
Im sure these guys would not have any reason to sweat inside the paper suits or on any exposed parts of their skin.

however since sweat is continually exiting the pores
this would prevent any contaminants from sticking to the sweat and working its way down into the skin.

in much the same way that people working with fiberglass
insulation never have to worry about the fibres getting
into their skin especially when they sweat , because the sweat keeps the fibres locked out.

some say that the sweat is like a magnet however they
must be confused with something other than nuclear reactor workers sweat.


what I cant understand so far however is why do radiologist
wear a lead shield when taking a x ray?

dont they understand that lead will not absorb x rays.

http://www.pnwx.com/Accessories/LeadProducts/Aprons/Infab/MaternityFront/



see the above apron even has a specialty section in case
of a pregnancy.

maybe the doctors and nurses dont understand how lead
will not shield x-rays.

we should inform them about the more effective paper
protection suits or maybe someone could make paper aprons for them.

Hello Paul

You seem to be confusing several very different radiation problems. Here are some of them:

1) Radioactive material (i.e. dust) inside or on the body
2) Alpha particles
3) Beta particles
4) Neutron radiation
5) X-rays
6) Gamma radiation

1) A filter breathing mask can protect a person against inhaling radioactive material

1) The skin can protect a person against absorbing radioactive material.

1) A paper/plastic suit can stop radioactive material sticking to the skin and emitting alpha/beta radiation at closer range into the body.

2, 3) A small air gap (on the order of centimeters thick) can protect a person against alpha and beta radiation.

3) A paper/plastic suit can protect a person against beta radiation.

4) It's much harder to protect against high energy neutrons. That's what the thick reactor walls do.

5) A lead apron can protect a person against X-rays.

6) Gamma rays also require thick shielding if they're generated in high intensities and at the right energies to be damaging to the body.


Not all types of radiation are generated in dangerous levels by all materials that have been irradiated. But secondary radiation and chemical/biological behavior of different substances significantly alter the risks. Eg. water soluble substances can more readily contaminate water than heavy non-soluble elements.



Why not. But I expect if they get torn they would just go and get a new suit.



You should explain in what way sweat is like a magnet. Sure stuff sticks to it, as we all know if we've been sweating in a dirty environment. But the skin is very effective at preventing contamination, even chemicals and microorganisms, from entering the body. That's it's purpose!

I suppose that knowing that all that is needed to shield
radioactive material is a piece of paper the national labs could handle a budget cut for the amount / cost of the more elaborate and expensive 4" thick lead blocks pictured above.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_protection

would you just slip on some paper gloves and dissasemble the lead castle above and then pick up the radioactive material with your hands that are shielded by the paper gloves?

and then wrap the radioactive material with a better material like a paper towel?

and then slip it into the pocket on your paper suit and
carry it around with you for several weeks?

after all you dont need to worry about anything right!

come to think of it , maybe the workers in japan should be replaced by the workers in labs.

but maybe that would cost too much.

I will believe that paper suits are better than anything else when I see japans top government officials and scientist working alongside them.

wearing the same paper / plastic suits.

They don't know that because it's not true. The lead will be to absorb gamma rays and possibly x-rays and neutron radiation. Again, the required protection depends on the type of radiation. Some radioactive materials are beta or alpha emmitters, so they're safe to handle with a thin layer of shielding, other materials are not. Some release radioactive dust into the air so they require respirators, others do not.

There is another issue. The risk to the workers vs the risk to the whole area if they don't do the job. Many of them are being exposed to more radiation than a typical nuclear worker, but it's to protect a much larger part of the population. Obviously they can't wear lead castles. And we know that a radiologist's lead apron can cause more harm than good when used with beta radiation.

I suppose that only Alpha radiation is in play at the reactors.

because paper will not stop Beta radiation.

is this why you insist that the paper is sufficient because
a aluminum plate is required to stop a Beta particle.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation





that pretty much explains your boink stats imagegeek LOL

Kallog Im surprised that you did not catch the above that imagegeek posted - :0

however im not surprised that imagegeek didnt catch it.

200 tonnes of radioactive material released each day
as radioactive steam and water!!

disaster scenario planning has only been focussing on 1% of the fuel in 1 reactor melting !!!

so far in fukushima 70% of the fuel in 3 reactors have melted.


http://vimeo.com/21731200


Gunderson showing what happens to a fuel tube in a meltdown.
http://vimeo.com/22209827

notice what he says about hydrogen , and remember it was a hydrogen explosion that blew the walls and roof off of the reactors.

an obvious meltdown generated all that hydrogen.

Japan has raised the severity rating to 7 from 5


http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/A/A...EMPLATE=DEFAULT

considering there were 600,000 fuel rods before the disaster , and that 70% of the fuel rods in the reactors have melted already , there is a strong indication that the severity level will increase even further.

there are still 600,000 fuel rods that I suppose have for the most part become lost?

or as I believe they mostly melted away before the hydrogen explosions occured.

and them melting away was why the hydrogen explosions occured and where the hydrogen came from.

so it appears that the affected areas of contamination would be much wider than earlier estimates.

looking at the video of the 2nd explosion the wind seemed to be carrying the contaminated debri from the explosion towards Tokyo , this is a densely populated metropolis

if Tokyo were to be included in as a exclusion zone then where could all these people go?

you just cant move such a large populace around inside japan.

so they would need proper up front warnings and protective gear and imported foods and possibly imported drinking water.