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#3512 09/24/05 01:42 AM
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Fact, warm seas feed hurricanes.
Could the gradual saponification of the oceans surfaces, by man, lessen surface tension?
If not now then in the future.
Effect on water vapour uptake?


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#3513 10/26/05 10:29 AM
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paging Uncle Al ... , paging Uncle Al ... ,

#3514 10/26/05 03:20 PM
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All right, off topic but funny. I'll choose to leave it here for a while.

#3515 10/26/05 05:51 PM
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Mike asks:
"Could the gradual saponification of the oceans surfaces, by man, lessen surface tension?"

Could is an awfully general word so I would be inclined to say "yes" but realistically I think the chances minimal and putting that much digestable organics into the ocean more likely to lead to an algae bloom of some sort.

Interestingly enough, though, the result might be the same as algal blooms have a direct relationship to water vapour uptake.


DA Morgan
#3516 10/26/05 05:56 PM
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Quote:
Could the gradual saponification of the oceans surfaces, by man,
Nothing dissolved wthin the bulk or layered on the surface increases the vapor pressure of water over the bulk fluid.

The simple way to starve a hurricane is to reduce the vapor pressure of the ocean. This could be accomplished by spreading something on the surface, Enviro-whiner caterwauling aside. OK, let's run the numbers: a cylinder one millimeter thick with a 25 mile radius to blanket the ocean:

(0.1 cm/mm) thickness
(5280 feet/mile)(12 inches/foot)(2.54 cm/inch)(25) = 4,023,360 cm radius

Cylinder volume is h(pi)r^2
(0.1 cm)(pi)(4,023,360 cm)^2 = 5.085x10^12 cm^3 or 5.09x10^9 liters or 5.09x10^6 cubic meters or 6.65x10^6 cubic yards

6.65 million cubic yards of anything is a whole bunch. If it is mariner's linseed oil (spread on troubled waters) with a density of 0.93 g/cm^3 you are looking at 4.7 million metric tonnes or ten billion pounds. How will you transport it? How will you disperse it?

It is obvious that no anthropogenic anything will result in 10 billion pounds of anything in a 25-mile radius of ocean. The numbers are much worse for soluble stuff. Oh yeah - waves disrupt the surface.

Not even wrong.

BTW, saponifaction is aqueous alkaline hydrolysis of an ester. You are talking out of your butt.


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#3517 10/26/05 09:07 PM
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It may be easier to build a dam from South Florida to Cuba and then to Yucatan, and then drain the Gulf of Mexico. laugh

#3518 10/26/05 09:42 PM
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If you do that you're going to be faced with some huge engineering problems, like diverting the Mississippi River to run into the Atlantic, cutting across the whole Southern Bible belt. There are other problems with the idea, many rivers would have to be diverted to keep the Gulf of Mexico basin from refilling. Probably not a feasible option, but an interesting mind experiment.

We might even discover some relics of ancient civilizations under the Gulf waves.

#3519 10/26/05 09:48 PM
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Quote:
It may be easier to build a dam from South Florida to Cuba and then to Yucatan, and then drain the Gulf of Mexico.
Look at depth charts before talking up Fluor Constructors or Halliburton. Looks to Uncle Al that some of your dam will be rather extensive, top to bottom,

http://www.gulfbase.org/facts.php

Good project, though! After we suck out all the oil we fill the hole with industrial and nuclear reactor waste, then let the water back in. Safe storage plus cooling for 10,000 years, no sweat.


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#3520 10/28/05 01:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Al:
Quote:
Could the gradual saponification of the oceans surfaces, by man. Effect upon water vapour uptake? (Mike Kremer said that)
Nothing dissolved wthin the bulk or layered on the surface increases the vapor pressure of water over the bulk fluid.

The simple way to starve a hurricane is to reduce the vapor pressure of the ocean. This could be accomplished by spreading something on the surface, Enviro-whiner caterwauling aside. OK,

6.65 million cubic yards of anything is a whole bunch. If it is mariner's linseed oil (spread on troubled waters) Oh yeah - waves disrupt the surface.

Not even wrong.

BTW, saponifaction is aqueous alkaline hydrolysis of an ester. You are talking out of your butt.
Well Uncle Al,I'm talking out of my butt, but, you seemed to have answered my question indirectly, When you say that spreading linseed oil upon troubled waters could starve a hurricane. by reducing the vapour pressure above the ocean.
Ok Good.
Now surely the gradual mixing mixing OF SOAP into the oceans would lessen the surface tension of its turbulent surface, producing more spray and waves...therefore increase the surface area exposed to the winds, and thus alolowing water vapour to be taken up, quicker.
Certainly quicker than your linseed oil spreading
Since you mentioned oil might starve a hurricane, so now I am assuming that I have a case. For the quicker takeup of water vapour due to less surface tension. ie So what goes up must come down as more, or heavier rain?

Sapon is the French derived word for soap, as a Chemist I am sure you know that. I meant the natural increase of soaps into the oceans, as hair shampoos, washing powders and others.
My word Saponification was probably a poor attempt at creating an adjective.
I did not write your word 'Saponifaction' I presume that is one of your chemical terms, of which I have no knowledge of.


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"You will never find a real Human being - Even in a mirror." ....Mike Kremer.


#3521 10/28/05 07:18 AM
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The problem with hurricanes is heat.
We have the tools: Promising Clean energy technologies, Carbon credits, Biotechnology's for agriculture and energy, and if need be theoretically promising techniques for sequestering carbon like ocean fertilization (1 LB of iron can hatch enough plankton to sequester 100,000 lb. of CO2). This is probably the only cost effective ways to reduce Hurricanes.


CO2 credits are the best system to bring the private sector around to CO2 control. Brazil just implemented them.


Erich J. Knight
#3522 10/28/05 08:05 AM
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I like the hurricanes. It makes oil cost more, meaning Norway make more money pumping our oil, and meaning I earn more on my work. Resulting in me being able to buy a SUV (which unfortunately costs about 5 times as much as in the states). Let's all hope for more extreme weather, man-made or not!


Johan VS

-Timing has a lot to do with the outcome of a raindance.
#3523 10/28/05 02:37 PM
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At least someone is profiting from the misery of millions. Too bad we can't ship the storms to your part of the world so you can experience firsthand the effects of "extreme weather".

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A dam seems pretty harsh, how about "flood gates" (between Cuba and Yucatan)? There would have to be navigable passages year round for shipping, and most of the year the "gates" could be left open, only closing them for hurricane season? No need to build one from Florida to Cuba since the first one would keep the Loop Current out, hopefully causing sufficient cooling of the Gulf to dampen hurricanes.

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Oil on troubled waters may stop hurricanes
Oil can be considered as an antagon of surface tension. The areas of different surface tension coming from surfactant impurities are sometimes directly visible by surface capillary waves from distance.


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