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anyman Offline OP
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the amazon, according to recently discovered evidence, once flowed in the opposite direction (it now flows easward to drain in the atlantic)...and at a couple of points it flowed in both directions at the same time

midlife changes

don't buy the 100ma, but the rift between the african and s american continents (part of the breakup of "pangea"?), the andean uplift, continental tilt, etc would agree with a rapid (catastrophic) plate tectonics model

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Is there a theory of geology which says that plate tectonics doesn't cause extreme and violent upheaval?

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Andean uplift was rapid, was it? Sea level to 22,000 feet in how much time?


When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."
--S. Lewis
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I've got a great project for anyman and his ilk.

Produce a timeline for the uplife of the following.

1. Himalayas
2. Andes
3. Alps
4. Rockies
5. Hawaiian Island chain (each and every island)
6. Urals
7. Pyrennes
8. Kunlun
9. Gangdise

After they put this together we can ask them to fill in the next dozen or two into their timeline.


DA Morgan
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Another good one anyman. Thanks. You comment:

"the rift between the african and s american continents (part of the breakup of "pangea"?), the andean uplift, continental tilt, etc would agree with a rapid (catastrophic) plate tectonics model." Why is that necessarily so? The uplift can be very gradual yet still have the same result. I'm sure someone could tell us how rapidly Africa and South America are moving apart at present. Without evidence to the contrary there is no need to assume the movement was either faster or slower in the past.

There is some interesting geology where I live. You'd love it. Older rocks overly younger rocks. What could you make of that? A huge hunk of material slid down from the northeast during the mid Teriary. But it probably moved fairly gradually, a series of earthquakes, although geologists have found what they call slow earthquakes that are moving parts of NZ. If anyone's interested I'll try to find info on the net.

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Sudden dramatic uplift somehow totally unnoticed by all of the humans inhabiting the planet. How could that be? ;-)

Not a single story about the mountains growing, the rivers beginning to flow, what mountain goats did before there were mountains.

It is a miracle don't you think?


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anyman Offline OP
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Quote:
Sudden dramatic uplift somehow totally unnoticed by all of the humans inhabiting the planet. How could that be? ;-)
hmm...maybe because there weren't all that many humans inhabiting the planet shortly after the worldwide flood began (about which there are stories from ~240 different cultures)...most of this rapid plate tectonic activity that i propose as a serious possibility (after others, though this model is contested by still others that propose alternate flood/post flood scenarios...and i remain in the skeptic mode regarding all geochronologies) would have occurred during and shortly after the flood...it would have taken folks perhaps a few hundred years to get out to those other areas...nobody there to witness it; no stories

the one family (8 folks) that did survive the flood (along with many kinds of animals) in the ark...probably didn't see much of it either (although their boat is said to have landed in the mountains of ararat)...and they were likely more concerned with transmitting the story of the awful flood...rather than describing new mountains since mountains also existed before the flood...but the flood was a ONE TIME event and worthy of repeating and recording

Quote:
Not a single story about the mountains growing, the rivers beginning to flow, what mountain goats did before there were mountains.
mountains growing...see above

you may forget or, like so many that believe as you do, just don't know that young earth science proposes/predicts RAPID variation/speciation, particularly in the first several hundred to a thousand or so years after the flood

mountain goats are of the same family (bovidae) and subfamily (caprinae) as currently classified by taxonomists (taxonomy is just another of many of the sciences that we enjoy thanks to creationary scientist founders) as common sheep and goats

i use the terms species, speciation, genus, genera, family, etc in deference to those terms commonly used

i much prefer the term *variation*

we don't even have a solid definition of *species,* much less clearly defined genera, families, etc (if you'd like to dispute that, take a look inside the science of taxonomy where there is a raging and not seldom bitter debate between the old school and the cladists and the numerical taxonomists, etc...there is a regular call for a whole new system, but no one has anything yet better to offer :-)

there are regularly reassessments called for regarding various species and genera, etc (not to mention that the number of total species on the earth was recently revised downward from as high as 40+ million to as few as 5million :-)...then among the taxonomists, etc you have your *splitters* and *lumpers* (those who want to claim a new species every time they find something are *splitters* while the *lumpers* disagree and even suggest that there are already far too many species)...then you have the molecular biologists that prefer to classify via molecular data rather than anatomical data (and there's a whole lotta mess goin' on there! :-)

domestic sheep (ovis), domestic goats (capra), and mountain goats (oreamnos) are all of different genera (as presently and generally classified), but at least domestic sheep and goats have interbred producing viable offspring (though we are not yet certain whether or not they are sterile...one hybrid was isolated because he kept trying to mount the other sheep and goats and there was a concern for the herd)...could one or the other interbreed with mountain goats...not sure, but as uncle al is fond of saying "someone ought to take a look" :-)

in other words, mountain goats may not have been an original variety but rather may be a variation of an original kind

original kind = anything that was once able to reproduce itself...it may be as narrow as what is commonly called a species and as broad as what is generally called a genus, sub family, family, or perhaps in some cases even broader...for the most part we would put it around the genus or maybe family level

i said "was once able to reproduce" because *kinds* may in some sense be shrinking while varieties grow, thus the past tense...i mean that some variations have become more specialized (via the LOSS of genetic info, ie, dog, horse, bird, etc varieties) that they are no longer able to interbreed or perhaps are just not interested in interbreeding with one another or perhaps have been isolated from one another or perhaps have grown to such disparate sizes that it is no longer practical to interbreed, etc, etc, etc

that aside who says there weren't mountains before the flood (there were, they just may not have been as high as some today, then again maybe they were, or maybe they were seriously rearranged...either way it's not a real problem (go ahead and ask about the amount of water on the earth, i'm waitin' fer ya :-)

Quote:
It is a miracle don't you think?
well...uhmm...yeah...and no

and mostly no to the objections that you have thus far raised

i have little doubt that some aspects of the flood and the resultant modification of the earth's geosphere were indeed due to miraculous cause...(i mean noah didn't need to go out looking for all the critters, his boss caused them to come to him :-)

but most of it is just plain ol' good geology, geophysics, and molecular genetics :-)

remember...you asked :-)

the good news is...we all gonna know the answers someday :-)

btw -- there are lots of other questions on the board that i'd like to answer/should answer, and many of which can answer; just ain't got the time to get to all of them...too bad, so sad :-(

wouldn't have the time to get to all of them even if i had nothing else to do...so just because i don't answer doesn't mean i can't answer or that no answer exists...and then there is the caveat: just because we don't know the answer now doesn't mean we won't tomorrow or 5000yrs from now :-)

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Wow!

anyman, I'd be interested in your take on the "speciation" discussion over on "360Mya fossil lampry..." on Origins forum.

A bit noisy; but just the posts on page 2 from eternautu & samwik down to terrytnz are the relevant ones.

Sorry to be so "off topic" here, but your post above reminded me of the "speciation" question.
New thread for Origins??
Thanks,
~samwik


Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.
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anyman wrote:
"hmm...maybe because there weren't all that many humans inhabiting the planet shortly after the worldwide flood began"

As samwik says ... Wow!

You mean Noah got those Koala's back to Australia, the polar bears back to the Canadian Northwest Territories, the Lions back to Africa, and the Penguins back to Antarctica without help. It is a miracle.

So that leaves exactly how many weeks for the differentiation of languages, differentiation of genetic code, differentiation of cultures, and for most of the planet's inhabitants to forget that they all descended from Noah and his family.

Double Wow!!

You see a scientist ... with the integrity to admit he/she doesn't have all the answers would just say "I don't know but maybe someday we will find the answer." I guess that is too much to expect from a true-believer. No, from you we are treated to make-it-up-on-the-spot answers with no grounding in either science or theology. Fascinating.

Triple Wow!!!


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Anyman. You may find this interesting. It really belongs in the "Fossils" (re. foraminifera)thread on origins but I haven't noticed your paricipation there. Of course yoy could say it's just one person's opinion but I look forward to any commenr you care to make.

http://home.entouch.net/dmd/micro.htm

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Anyman, (and anyone else who's interested) seems creationists do accept mutations lead to differences between species. How's this from one of your sites:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v22/i3/ligers_wolphins.asp

Quote: "In the case of three species, A, B and C, if A and B can each hybridize with C, then it suggests that all three are of the same created kind ? whether or not A and B can hybridize with each other. Breeding barriers can arise through such things as mutations."

Wow! We move closer together. We can now consider species at the phylum level to have evolved from the same "kind". Darwinian evolution.

Re. the sheep goat hybrid:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheep-goat_hybrid

Surely once you concede that two species descended from a single "kind" can develop some degree of infertility, total infertility of two species descended from a single "kind" is no problem. We can then readily accept humans and the various ape species descend from a single "kind".

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anyman Offline OP
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Quote:
You mean Noah got those Koala's back to Australia, the polar bears back to the Canadian Northwest Territories, the Lions back to Africa, and the Penguins back to Antarctica without help. It is a miracle.

So that leaves exactly how many weeks for the differentiation of languages, differentiation of genetic code, differentiation of cultures, and for most of the planet's inhabitants to forget that they all descended from Noah and his family.

Double Wow!!

You see a scientist ... with the integrity to admit he/she doesn't have all the answers would just say "I don't know but maybe someday we will find the answer." I guess that is too much to expect from a true-believer. No, from you we are treated to make-it-up-on-the-spot answers with no grounding in either science or theology. Fascinating.

Triple Wow!!!
dano, dano, dano...you are fond of calling others trolls but there is no greater troll than you are

i have responses to your jazz above...but i don't think the climate is right at the moment, nor is this the thread in which, to continue this here

we can take it private, though i would prefer my response to your jazz be public...you choose, private or we move it to origins or the nqs board (and since the origins board has a better chance of surviving the sadly unnecessary but probably inevitable reorganization of sciagog, i propose it would be a better choice :-)

btw -- i can't find your "gone silent" comment in regard to disease, etc but i have responses to that jazz too :-)

again, just because i don't have time to get to every comment worthy (or not so worthy but requisite all the same) of a response, does not mean i have no response, or that in the event that a response is beyond me at present (which is not the case here), others may have the answer...

and then, the caveat again...

just because we don't know the answer now, doesn't mean we won't tomorrow or 5 or 50 or 500yrs from now

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anyman Offline OP
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ttnz,

i have been at less than my best all week, healthwise (some unusual bp spikes, of which i have no history but my family does, and i'm just getting to an age where i am just not as young as i once was and things like this can jump on ya...tueday and wednesday bp was normal but i was vomiting and dizzy for hours on end...don't know what's up with all that but i'll go get a serious look from the docs next week)

anyway, i haven't forgotten your foraminifera post and haven't checked the other but will get back to it when i can

i have a response for your (glenn morton's) foraminifera post...bear with me :-)

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anyman wrote:
"i have responses to your jazz above"

Of course you do. Sure. You betcha.

While your at it explain why ALL male mammals have nipples.

Bet you've got one for that too. ;-)


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Anyman. Sorry to hear you're not well. Good luck (or whatever it is that gets us through) for a speedy and complete recovery.

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Rest up bp and take care of yourself.

bp spikes are often an early sign of diabetes. See your doc.


DA Morgan

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