Science a GoGo's Home Page Forums General Discussion General Science Discussion Forum Large Brains Not Essential

As part of a discussion on the blivet board there was a suggestion that humans are the most advanced species and the only ones that can read, write, and do rithmatik. Well imagine my surprise when just a day or two later I found this:

Animals do not need a big brain to be able to teach each other, a new study suggests.

Animal behaviourists in the UK believe they have found the first evidence of two-way teacher-pupil communication between ants, suggesting that teaching behaviour may have evolved according to the value of information rather than brain size.

For more information go to:
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn8567

Ants 'learn' the way back?! I thought they just followed chemical signals left by other ants!

One can diagnose future high intelligence in kindergarten children simply by measuring their skulls' circumference. It's about an 80% correlation. Mensa, the international high IQ society, has only one hat size: large.

Grey parrots are apparently marvelously intelligent (if you like Liberal Arts). While any loud mouth can be Jacques Derrida, it requires rather a larger, more functional, and better trained brain to be James Clark Maxwell.

Dolphins have a larger brain/body weight ratio than humans. Their neurons are volumetrically larger and more loosely packed. A large proportion of capacity is devoted to sonar processing. Decades of research have been uselessly devoted to decoding (there's Derrida again) dolphin clicks and squeaks. They are broadcasting holistic sonar images, you idiots, not linear strings of language.

Uncle Al wrote:
"Mensa, the international high IQ society, has only one hat size: large."

Not my hat size. Where did you get this misinformation?

We looked. Every now and again at a Sociables or an RG the topic arises. Mensas overall have large heads. A not insignficant proportion have really large heads.

In contrast, there is a racially-correlated incidence of small skulls. Brain volume has to go somewhere, what there is of it, causing the formation of an "occipital bun." It is a statistically inefficient way of packaging intelligence.

Of course, all races of Homo sapiens have equal intellgence as all dogs are equally intellgient. Beagles apparently know how to hide it.

"Of course, all races of Homo sapiens have equal intellgence as all dogs are equally intellgient. Beagles apparently know how to hide it."

I have some small experience training dogs - not professionally, but personal. When I was growing up , at different times, we had a Great Dane, several German Shepherds, labs, beagles, a poodle, a husky/wolf mix, and a "dog" that just showed up one day that I believe to have been a full siberian wolf. My first dog, at a very young age, was a chihuahua/bulldog mix. Also, I earned some cash as a preteen in AK cleaning up dog poop and caring for several other breeds.

I corresponded with a former professional dog trainer once who insisted that all dogs really are equally intelligent. I can't argue with it except to say that his no doubt well-informed opinion is contrary to all of my experience.

Beagles are wonderful pets and very loving, but they are in general, not very smart. Poodles, otoh, are brilliant. I taught my mother's poodle to do an extremely complicated indoor obstacle course in 2 days. I have talked to many other poodle owners who unanimously agree that they are indeed exceptionally intelligent as dogs go.

Currently I have a JRT (Jack Russell Terrier). Technically it's my kids' dog, but she doesn't know that. When I go away on travel, the family tearfully reports that she sits by the door and waits for my return. This dog is also extremely intelligent - not so much as the poodle - but she is one of the most instinct-driven animals I've ever encountered. That's not exactly the right thing to say. I suppose all animals are driven by instinct. But she is only barely able to control it most of the time. She will sit with me on the deck for hours and stare at squirrels - the entire time quivering as if she can't contain herself. When I let her off leash, she takes off after things - and has only recently gotten to the point where she'll return immediately when called - but even then she takes her seat next to me and watches the object of her attention while quivering uncontrollably.

I'm sure there are individual differences between dogs. It could be that the smartest dog in the world is a beagle or that the dumbest one is a poodle. But the trend to me seems so obvious and inescapable that I just can't bring myself to agree with the opinion of the professional dog trainer.

All dogs are dogs, but not all breeds are equally intelligent any more than all breeds are equally tall or equally fast.

Thanks for the clarification Al.

very intersting question.
Infact Brain has been overrated in its ability to bring phenomenonal understanding.
Its the whole body structure which plays its part.
Including Heart and Physiology.

That'll no doubt be because Jack Russels were originally selectively bred for hunting purposes.
Specifically to be sent into fox earths to bolt the prey.

The size of the brain is not necessarily an indication of intelligence. People are born with only a few mm of brain tissue lining the skull but still have an IQ high enough to get into college.

http://www.unexplainedstuff.com/Mysteries-of-the-Mind/Living-without-a-Brain.html

Baz

And if their daddy's have enough money they can some day graduate from Yale and become President of the United States: What a world.

Oh yeah this is the serious science side of the house ... ahh ... ahh ... ahh ... Yeah well how about this?

Up to three million men around the world could be descended from a prolific medieval Irish king, according to a new genetic study.

It suggests that the 5th-century warlord known as "Niall of the Nine Hostages" may be the ancestor of about one in 12 Irishmen, say researchers at Trinity College Dublin, Ireland. Niall established a dynasty of powerful chieftains that dominated the island for six centuries.

In a study of the Y chromosome - which is only passed down through the male line - scientists found a hotspot in northwest Ireland where 21.5% carry Niall?s genetic fingerprint, says Brian McEvoy, one of the team at Trinity. This was the main powerbase of the Ui Neills, which literally translated means "descendants of Niall".

Modern surnames tracing their ancestry to Niall include (O')Neill, (O')Gallagher, (O')Boyle, (O')Doherty, O'Donnell, Connor, Cannon, Bradley, O'Reilly, Flynn, (Mc)Kee, Campbell, Devlin, Donnelly, Egan, Gormley, Hynes, McCaul, McGovern, McLoughlin, McManus, McMenamin, Molloy, O'Kane, O'Rourke and Quinn.

Source:
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn8600

The links on that site don't provide original studies. It's not clear whether the reporters have gotten the essential correct. Were these "no-brainers" really normal in their reasoning facility? What is the resolution on the CAT scan they were using? I don't think it's a mystery THAT the brain can compensate for damage, although I'm sure there's a lot to be done to figure out HOW it happens.

"No detectable brain" doesn't mean "no brain."

"That'll no doubt be because Jack Russels were originally selectively bred for hunting purposes.
Specifically to be sent into fox earths to bolt the prey."

Correct. I never heard of JRTs until my kids found ours in the pound. I did a little research before committing. Though I'm not sure of the accuracy, most of it has seemed to hold true. All the terriers were originally bred as ratters. The JRT's were diverted especially for fox hunting - but they still have their roots in chasing rats. Anything small and furry and running around is fair game. "Small" is anything not at least twice her size.

When my hamster is on his wheel or when I clean his cage, she'll sit and stare at him for hours.

Birds, bugs - anything that scurries, flies, crawls, creeps, or darts is a potential victim.
I've tried to calm her ... I have a training bunny and squirrel I use ... to no avail. I would compare her instinct to something like a rat and a snake, except I just read an article on msn about a rat-snake that was actually friends with a rat.
I don't think that's training, though, even if the article isn't a hoax.

Back to my original point - not all dogs are equal. They have different things they're good at . Bassetts and bloodhounds are better than other dogs at smelling. Afghans are better runners. Most labs don't have to be "trained" to retrieve - they're trained to drop the bird after they bring it back. They're eager to please. Collies and cattle dogs have a natural instinct to want to control other animals. Pit bulls are tenacious in a fight. (It's not true that their jaws lock. But they ARE extremely tenacious.)

Are there exceptions? Of course. Plenty. I've met a pit bull that was terrified of other dogs - would wet itself and roll over. I've met a lab that was not that eager to please. I've met terriers that were indolent. So my general statements above are not universally true. But they're pretty good statements about the differences between the dominant characteristics in the breeds relative to other breeds.

I'm pretty well convinced that the smartest dogs are poodles. Also I think some of the herding dogs are pretty smart. Though I've never owned one, I'm impressed with the work I've seen them do. (My grandma owned a border collie mix that I loathed, but the dog would pinch our behinds if we tried to sneak out of the yard through a hole in the fence.) I think my girls' JRT is pretty smart, but it's also just about the stubbornest little thing I think I've ever seen. Labs and German shephards are smart. The hounds in general (with a few possible exceptions) just aren't as smart as other dogs - blue ticks, red ticks, coon hounds, blood hounds, bassetts. (I'm not sure about afghans and greyhounds, etc.) They're loving and devoted, but they just aren't that smart.

This firm opinion is based entirely on personal experience and conflicts with the conclusions of a professional who I'm sure must have more experience than I do. (OTOH, I've spoken with at least one professional who agreed with me.)

not much experience with the dog business..i fell size of the brain is not the fact to be considered but the convolutions in it. Mosly when Einsteins brain was studied it had some special modifications in a particular side with reference to any average rated human brain ..thus enabling him without mumbling with the big Math problems..still obscure Idont put an ant which had the higher capacity to carry a burden 10 times heavier than its body and can learn more interestingly ...i still amaze at the ability of the mans best friend to learn and be with its master..