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#9776 - 10/27/06 12:43 AM "Don't Fence Me In"
Mike Kremer Offline

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Registered: 10/16/04
Posts: 1696
Loc: London UK
First we had:-
The Great Wall of China.
Then, Hadrians Roman wall in the UK.
The Berlin Wall
The Israeli Wall.
And now the-
Mexican/USA Wall.
Seven hundred miles of an eventual 2000 miles has just been approved by Bush, about to be built.

Although its a fence, it will also extend some 12 feet into the ground where nessesary, to prevent tunneling. And be equipped with detection apparatus.

Is it needed? Is it political? Or too late?
Can anyone think of any other divisional walls that might be approved of, in the future?

Some things in the world never change.

--------------------
"You will never find a real Human being - even in a mirror." .....Mike Kremer.

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"You will never find a real Human being - Even in a mirror." ....Mike Kremer.



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#9777 - 10/27/06 01:10 AM Re: "Don't Fence Me In"
terrytnewzealand Offline
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Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 1031
Loc: Whangarei New Zealand
History shows the walls are only effective for a short time. Then the tides of human migration take over once again. I can see the USA having to build walls in Iraq to form three separate countries though; Sumeria, Assyria and the Hittite region.

As you say Mike "Some things in the world never change."

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#9778 - 10/27/06 03:36 AM Re: "Don't Fence Me In"
DA Morgan Offline
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Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Take a look at your calendar.

It is 2 weeks before the electrons.

It is a stunt.

A meaningless, worthless, stunt.

It isn't intended to keep illegal aliens out ... it is intended to keep Congressmen in(-office).

Likely in two weeks it will fail at the first purpose. And over the following months and/or years it will fail at the second.
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#9779 - 10/27/06 04:31 AM Re: "Don't Fence Me In"
terrytnewzealand Offline
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Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 1031
Loc: Whangarei New Zealand
That's politics. They are even saying now that Pharaoh Bush is not actually a fundy. He just pretended to be to get the votes. I don't actually believe the story of course. He shows so many symptoms of being one. Like all fundys he has this stunning ability to fool himself.

Immigration is always usually a reliable one though unless you need cheap labour. John Ralston Saul (I hope you are familiar with him) suggests modern politics is based on "the tecnique of fear". Seems to work every time.

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#9780 - 10/27/06 04:39 AM Re: "Don't Fence Me In"
DA Morgan Offline
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Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
The chance of Bush truly believing in anything is nearer zero than liquid helium.

To believe something requires the ability to formulate a thought. I've yet to see evidence that he is more than a trained parrot.
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#9781 - 10/27/06 10:20 AM Re: "Don't Fence Me In"
dehammer Offline
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Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
the only thing about this political stunt that actually bothers me is that the mexican president and many others compare it to the berlin wall.

the berlin wall was built to keep people that wanted to leave ligitamately from doing so. people in the usa can leave when every they want. we are not building it in mexico. for that matter, the people of mexico can leave when ever they want, and even can come to america, if they do so legitmately.

comparing it to the berlin wall is basically saying that mexican nationals have the right to enter the us without permission of the us goverment.
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#9782 - 10/27/06 07:14 PM Re: "Don't Fence Me In"
DA Morgan Offline
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Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
dehammer wrote:
"the only thing about this political stunt that actually bothers me is that the mexican president and many others compare it to the berlin wall."

Mexico's entire foreign policy toward the US is sending workers north so that the workers can send dinero south.

That US corporate interests are willing to sacrifice a country for their short term gain is criminal: Thus they support Mexican foreign policy.
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#9783 - 10/27/06 09:52 PM Re: "Don't Fence Me In"
terrytnewzealand Offline
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Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 1031
Loc: Whangarei New Zealand
Dehammer, you don't like to compare the wall to Berlin. However it is very like the Israeli wall. This tends to support the argument many make that Israel is just another state of the USA. Or is it that the USA is a state of Israel? I forget which.

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#9784 - 10/27/06 10:38 PM Re: "Don't Fence Me In"
DA Morgan Offline
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Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Lets get real here. They didn't vote a single dollar to build it ... it will never be built.

There is, however, a big difference between what is happening in the US and what is happening in Israel.

So far not a single Mexican has snuck into the US with a bomb.
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#9785 - 10/27/06 10:48 PM Re: "Don't Fence Me In"
dehammer Offline
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Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
there is a major difference, tnz, with the israeli wall and this one. this wall is to keep mexico from stealling our money, while israel is trying to keep their citizens very life safe. Just because two different countries are fighting simular situations, albet one more dangerous than the other, does not mean that they are connect to each other.
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#9786 - 10/28/06 01:01 AM Re: "Don't Fence Me In"
RicS Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/26/06
Posts: 310
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Most countries have rather high fences around their airports which are their "borders" for a great many visitors. No one would complain about these fences. They are there for the security of the planes but also to stop illegal immigrants.

Australia built a fence several thousand kilometres long to keep Dingos out of the east and south. It worked. It was also in the middle of our country.

If I don't want someone in my backyard I can build a 2 metre fence (3 metres with special permission).

Isn't the only difference between these types of boundaries and the Israel and US fences a matter of size?

If I had a nation very close to my border whose national policy was the destruction of my nation and another neighbour actually developing nuclear weapons that their president says should be used against Israel, I'd actually think the fence was too little. The controversy about the fence is not that it keeps those that do not belong in the country out, it is that it disects Palestinian's farms, villages, etc, making their life quite difficult. Of course the Palestinian question might be a little simpler if any other Arab nation would accept any of them as refuges. They'd rather that they live in squallor and be a thorn in the side of Israel.

If Mexico doesn't like the wall, perhaps they should do something that allows their population to live a little better, or discourage their citizens from illegally crossing into another country.

It may be a political stunt (the US one, not the Israel one) but really what is the big deal? It is their borders (both Israel and the US) and they really should be able to decide who comes into their country. And dehammer, I'd actually think the US/Mexican border illegal crossings causes more deaths than the Israeli one. This border is used to smuggle people and smuggled people are often little better than slaves and do die. It is used to smuggle in terrorism. It is a route that various terrorist organisations have used in the past. It is used to smuggle drugs. Whether the drugs are the killers or the drug pushers are the killers makes little difference to the fact that it is still a danger.

If I was a US senator proposing the wall I, Mike, I wouldn't mind it being compared with the Great Wall of China or Hadrins wall. Both were built to keep out hostile forces into territory under a legitimate government control. I guess you could get picky about Romans and Britain but during that era, someone was going to attempt to control territory. At least the Romans brought roads, plumbing, sound laws.

If it is technically possible and cost effective (border patrols don't seem to work all that well and must cost a great deal to run each year) isn't it just another form of border protection, just like the border patrol or the Coast Guard. Mike, do you suggest that there should be no border protection?


Regards


Richard
_________________________
Sane=fits in. Unreasonable=world needs to fit to him. All Progress requires unreasonableness

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#9787 - 10/28/06 08:22 PM Re: "Don't Fence Me In"
terrytnewzealand Offline
Megastar

Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 1031
Loc: Whangarei New Zealand
As I said near the beginning:

"History shows the walls are only effective for a short time."

Sooner or later the inevitable tide of evolution takes over and the wall fails to work any more.

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#9788 - 10/29/06 03:32 AM Re: "Don't Fence Me In"
eternauta Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/23/06
Posts: 16
Loc: BC, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by dehammer:
this wall is to keep mexico from stealling our money,
stealing money? I had the impression that the mexicans went to do the kinds of work americans don't want to do
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#9789 - 10/29/06 07:08 AM Re: "Don't Fence Me In"
Mike Kremer Offline

Megastar

Registered: 10/16/04
Posts: 1696
Loc: London UK
Quote:
Originally posted by RicS:
Most countries have rather high fences around their airports which are their "borders" for a great many visitors..................>
>....................or Hadrians wall. At least the Romans brought roads, plumbing, sound laws.
................>Mike, do you suggest that there should be no border protection?

Richard
Quote:
Hi Richard.
Yes you have made an excellent argument as to why borderwalls should be be there.
Your Airport fences are a good point
Reluctantly I have to agree with you.
Hadrians wall and other ancient walls, separated the educated Romans from the more barbaric Britons. But the Romans, as you say, had a lot to offer. Building, villas, roads and water supplies, and agriculture. So that the ancient Britons came to accept the style of life, even after the Romans left Britain.
There ought to be a learning curve in there somewhere. But the ancients willingly learnt about living, from their more educated conquerors. Today the conquered learn about a life style that is unobtainable within their lifetime. Prehaps its just as well for us, that they broadcast their own Satellite footprints. Their own electronic wall. Helps keeps things orderly?

You mentioned Drugs, Nuclear weapons etc....and there are a myriad more, like:- the uneducated poor, diseases, oil, moral differences,terrorism, and the almost insurmountable differences in the basic thinking of peoples. ie... in religion, the freedom of women, and surprisingly - that Communism AND Democracy are incompatible with Islamic teachings.
In modern times it seems that the greater the differences in life styles, the more likely that there will be separation, culminating in a physical wall?
Since its always the richer of the two sides that always builds these separation walls, one should properly address the builders, as to the reasons why.
One thing we hav'nt mentioned is that occasionaly the "separated side" are often forgotten about by the outside world. In particular, I have never been able to understand as to why Saudi Arabia, one of the richest countrys in the world has never openly given help to the Palestinians, in the shape of desalination plants, buildings, or just plain money.

Id like to think 'Terrytnewzealand' had a point when he said that:-
"History shows the walls are only effective for a short time. Sooner or later the inevitable tide of evolution takes over and the wall fails to work any more".

What kind of evolution does he mean? Multi-national, multi-cultural, and multi-religious?
There are only two countries in the world that purport to hold these fine attributes.
The United States of America, and the United Kingdom, but both are skating thin on the multi-cultural aspect. I believe there are differences today that will always remain.
All the more so, because Earth scanning satellites alert both sides as to any military infringments. Infringements that would have been secretly 'taken care of' by a local war, before the advent of satellites.
Democracy and Differences are now forced to live together, walls or no walls.

--------------------
"You will never find a real Human being - even in a mirror." .....Mike Kremer.

.
_________________________
.

.
"You will never find a real Human being - Even in a mirror." ....Mike Kremer.



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#9790 - 10/30/06 02:47 AM Re: "Don't Fence Me In"
RicS Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/26/06
Posts: 310
Loc: Sydney, Australia
G'day,

"Effective for a short time". The Great Wall of China had its uses for around a thousand years. I'm not sure that I would call that all that short in human terms.


Richard
_________________________
Sane=fits in. Unreasonable=world needs to fit to him. All Progress requires unreasonableness

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#9791 - 10/30/06 02:49 AM Re: "Don't Fence Me In"
RicS Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/26/06
Posts: 310
Loc: Sydney, Australia
G'day,

By the way, this isn't science. It is political. It is fleetingly interesting but doesn't belong here.


Richard
_________________________
Sane=fits in. Unreasonable=world needs to fit to him. All Progress requires unreasonableness

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#9792 - 10/30/06 03:48 AM Re: "Don't Fence Me In"
terrytnewzealand Offline
Megastar

Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 1031
Loc: Whangarei New Zealand
Mike, you asked:

"What kind of evolution does he mean?"

I mean the kind of genetic change in regional human populations that has always happened. From the expansion of Indo-European and Austonesian-speaking people about 5000 years ago, the Mongolian and Turkish-speakers 1000 years ago, European expansion in the last few hundred years, to East Asian and African people's expansion more recently. Your post way back as "Out of Asaia - Not Africa" hints the same process was involved in Homo erctus evolution and I have provided a link for the chimp/human split that shows the same process was involved then.

RicS wrote:

"The Great Wall of China had its uses for around a thousand years."

Yes. But it was never totally effective.

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#9793 - 10/30/06 05:38 AM Re: "Don't Fence Me In"
dehammer Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
Quote:
Originally posted by eternauta:
Quote:
Originally posted by dehammer:
this wall is to keep mexico from stealling our money,
stealing money? I had the impression that the mexicans went to do the kinds of work americans don't want to do
that is more political jive turkey from those who want to open the door to immagrations. Speaking as someone who has done those kinds of jobs, there are a lot of people, born to this country, that want those jobs, but we expect to be paid a wage that allows us to live in this country.

those who come to this country illegally, leave their families in mexico where its cheaper to live, and while they stay here, live in environments that are not considered safe, secure and dont have the basic necissaties. They know they are going this for their families, so they are willing to share an appartment with a dozen other people, living in a space designed for one. This is how they get the jobs, because the people that give them to them know that they dont have to pay the legal minimum wages. Then you have americans living on welfare because they cant get the job because they expect to be paid the legal minimum wage.

these are the jobs that bleeding hearts say they take from no one. these are the jobs supposedly americans dont want: sub mimimun wage, hard jobs, 40+ hours weeks with no overtime. If illegal immagrants were not here, these would not exist because the bosses would have to comply with american laws.
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the more man learns, the more he realises, he really does not know anything.

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#9794 - 10/30/06 08:39 AM Re: "Don't Fence Me In"
eternauta Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/23/06
Posts: 16
Loc: BC, Canada
Understood. maybe the government efforts' should be put on controlling the corporations (and smaller employers too) and effectively enforcing labour laws. Wouldn't that discourage illegal migration more than the wall?

Well, I guess this thread will finally be censored for un-scientific.
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#9795 - 10/30/06 01:55 PM Re: "Don't Fence Me In"
dehammer Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
they do that as much as possible. unfortuantely there are limits to what you can do with that. the people have to be in the country doing the work before they can be found. since it prevents them from getting paid, the illegal workers do their best to hid. Since it would cost them loads of fines and higher wages, the employers do their best to hid. It would cost more than the cost of the fense every year to completely enforce those rules and no one wants to pay that.
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