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#9816 - 11/04/06 08:59 AM Re: "Don't Fence Me In"
terrytnewzealand Offline
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Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 1031
Loc: Whangarei New Zealand
RicS. A very long but well reasoned diatribe. I agree with most, if not all, of what you said. My ancestry is a combination of Scot and Irish after all.

Mike made an interesting observation earlier when he said "Since its always the richer of the two sides that always builds these separation walls, one should properly address the builders, as to the reasons why." This is possibly not true of the Berlin wall but maybe the wealthy East germans wished to protect their status.

I'm perhaps sorry for bringing up the subject of Indigenous Americans. However I think it has provoked some thoughtful comments. We seem to all agree that wrongs were committed in the past. In a previous post I asked:

'But if we see the same wrongs being committed today should we just sit back and say "let evolution do as evolution does"?'

Admitted we cannot alter the past but there are expansionist regimes at present committing much the same crimes against humanity as colonial powers committed in years past. What should we do about this?

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#9817 - 11/04/06 03:16 PM Re: "Don't Fence Me In"
DA Morgan Offline
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Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
To fight current injustices is a good and worthy fight.

To fight injustices created in the past by inflicting new injustices upon others is guarantees they will do the same to you. A never ending circle of destructive behaviour.
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DA Morgan

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#9818 - 11/05/06 03:17 AM Re: "Don't Fence Me In"
Mike Kremer Offline

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Registered: 10/16/04
Posts: 1696
Loc: London UK
Quote:
Originally posted by DA Morgan:

To fight injustices created in the past by inflicting new injustices upon others is guarantees they will do the same to you. A never ending circle of destructive behaviour.
"A never ending circle of destructive behaviour"

Which of course is the very reason that physical walls are built. I would even go as far as to say, -Any wall built today encourages a form of apartheid?
Differences in the world are increasing, not decreasing. Those with differences, tend to congregate together.
Differences just don't die out, they multiply when left alone.
If persecuted, they move on, and then go build walls if needed.
Gone are the old maxims of - 'love thy neighbour, and turn the other cheek'.
Life is too complicated, with too much at stake for that to work today.
Then there are those other 'creeping walls', that further add the overall picture.
The financial walls, the political walls, the trade barriers, etc. Even invisible walls, where subtle change, and acceptance become a matter of course. Like...'The Worlds Largest Ship' I posted earlier...dumping cheap goods?

I'ts my considered belief that physical walls and barriers will increase, as time go's on,....even that it may well become the accepted norm in the near future.

--------------------
"You will never find a real Human being - even in a mirror." .....Mike Kremer.
....And never behind a wall...!
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_________________________
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"You will never find a real Human being - Even in a mirror." ....Mike Kremer.



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#9819 - 11/05/06 08:49 AM Re: "Don't Fence Me In"
terrytnewzealand Offline
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Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 1031
Loc: Whangarei New Zealand
Mike Kremer wrote:

"The financial walls, the political walls, the trade barriers, etc. Even invisible walls"

The walls between species. Perhaps the walls between different groups of people may lead to speciation in future? I remember a topic on SAGG where the consensus was the human species would grow closer together rather than speciate. In the words of the Nigerian singer Prince Nico Mbarga "Who knows tommorrow?"

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#9820 - 11/05/06 09:16 AM Re: "Don't Fence Me In"
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
Quote:
Originally posted by Mike Kremer:
I'ts my considered belief that physical walls and barriers will increase, as time go's on,....even that it may well become the accepted norm in the near future.
It is paradoxical that the world becomes smaller and the global village gets bigger and yet divisions increase.

Many aspects of life are becoming increasingly polarized. In Western countries the gap between rich and poor is growing exponentially. In many areas we now have walled estates (common in places like Hollywood, but springing up everywhere) where the well-off live in sheltered, gated areas that the average Joe cannot access. The logical extension is huge self-contained apartment blocks where people have all the amenities they need, like Malls and grassy roof park areas, and never need to set foot outside to tangle with the 'undesirables'.

We now have many distinct ethnic communities within the UK, showing that at least for us, Multi-Culturalism has failed. There are places now where I would be unwelcome in my country of birth and this demonstrates the growing fragmentation and division.

We have diametrically opposed causes which in large part define many people's lives and mean that there is enmity and no common dialogue between groups. Things like feminism, pro choice & pro life, animal rights & pro hunting, environmental campaigners & big business. These things increasingly define and divide people.

The strange thing though is that politics appears to be bucking the trend. In the UK all parties have moved towards the centre and we no longer have left and right wing. There is so little to choose between the main parties that people are reduced to personality politics - we vote in the leader we like the most and not the one who?s policies we most agree with because their manifestos are virtually identical.

The strange thing about the Mexican/American wall is that it is proposed by people who promote the unrestrained Free Market and believe that if left to itself the market will effectively self organise, and yet don't see the inconsistency of putting protectionist barriers and artificial structures in place to prevent the market from doing exactly that.

Blacknad.

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#9821 - 11/05/06 10:08 AM Re: "Don't Fence Me In"
samwik Offline
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Registered: 10/10/06
Posts: 1164
Loc: Colorado
Haven't followed this thread much, but I saw Kinky Friedman recently say he was against the wall because he worried that in 10 years WE may want to be getting out of here!
~sa
_________________________
Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

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#9822 - 11/05/06 09:04 PM Re: "Don't Fence Me In"
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Again ... lets get real about the wall ... it will never be built.

The cost of the proposed wall is $2,000,000,000.00

The only part of that that was funded was the 0.00.

It was political posturing before an election based upon the theory that the American electorate is composed of a large number of stupid people.
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#9823 - 11/05/06 11:23 PM Re: "Don't Fence Me In"
dehammer Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
I suspect it will be build in sections, not as much by the goverment, as by states and groups of individuals. perhaps one day it will be complete, or it could just fall in disrepair into another legacy of the political party of the time.
_________________________
the more man learns, the more he realises, he really does not know anything.

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