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#8030 - 08/11/06 12:45 AM Re: Evolution
dehammer Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
Quote:
Originally posted by Sue Hindmarsh:
Individuals bonding together, united by shared attachments and values, find that their needs and wants are met better by the group than if they had to act entirely independently. But; this also means that some attachments held by an individual may need to be suppressed, so as to not cause unrest or disorder in the group. For example: say a group comprises of three females and one male - with all the females depending on the male for food and protection. And say one of the females falls in deep water and is drowning. The male has to consider the possibility that, if he dives in to rescue her, he too might drown. This would mean that the other two females would be left alone and in peril. If he does decide to dive in to save her, it shows that he has either a greater attachment to her than to the other two females, or he is attached to his own abilities and strengths ? enough so to make him believe that he will succeed in saving her without falling victim himself. (From experience, we know that people who ?believe? they can do something often find out the hard way that they cannot.) No matter which way the story ends, what is clear here is that the male is at the mercy of his attachments.
the problem with this arguement is that it predisposes that the persons stops and thinks about the dangers and consequences of that act. as has been proven many times, such as proven by your comment that "From experience, we know that people who ?believe? they can do something often find out the hard way that they cannot", it is rare for someone to stop to think in these cases. people react from gut reactions. either their fear stops them from acting, or their desire to aid is strong enough to overcome the all too human fear. this is why people go out into danger to save a total stranger. this is why a mother will throw away her life to protect a child. this is why men battle beast that have, at least in the past, had a great chance of killing them or their families. people dont rush into a burning building to save another persons life because they want rewards. they do it because the other person will die if they do not act and act quickly. people dont rush out to save a person drowning because they want to get their name in the papers. they do it because the other person is in peril.
_________________________
the more man learns, the more he realises, he really does not know anything.

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.
#8031 - 08/11/06 01:33 AM Re: Evolution
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
I don't know Sue. What do you think causeed the concept of waffling, weaving, spin-doctoring, disembling, and obfuscating?

Everyone that comes to this forum comes as a stranger. We form opinions of them based upon what they post and whether they can put forward a cogent argument. Right now, my evaluation, is that you:

avoid answering direct questions
avoid providing references
express personal opinions as fact at the level of "Why?" ... "Well because I say so"
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#8032 - 08/11/06 01:36 AM Re: Evolution
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Well said dehammer. So far Sue has provided not a single reference to support her statements and has done everything possible to ignore answering a direct question.

Perhaps we should remind her of the whites that participated in ending slavery in the US or the Germans that helped smuggle Jews out of Germany.

But why bother. She'd probably make some oblique reference to Pliny or Zeus or Gatoraide.
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#8033 - 08/11/06 03:35 AM Re: Evolution
esin Offline
Member

Registered: 06/04/05
Posts: 60
Loc: LI, NY
Quote:
What do you think caused the concepts of ?virtue? and ?altruism? to arise in man?

-
Sue
imo, the confluence of time and Nature...survival/be survived~


dehammer wrote:
"is this altrusism, ill leave that for others to decide. all i can tell you is i had to go and that this is why."

DA Morgan wrote:
Yes it is!

Yes it is! ~regards

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#8034 - 08/11/06 04:39 AM Re: Evolution
Sue Hindmarsh Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/08/06
Posts: 20
Loc: Australia
dehammer wrote:

[QUOTE]you obviously were not around after the vietnam war. the soldiers comeing home and even those who served in other areas were dispised and taunted. there were no parades then, no one showering them with the 'value' of their sacrifice.[QUOTE]
-
Yes they did ? they showed that they did not value their sacrifice.

As you experienced, humans can be quite contrary. One minute you?re the greatest; next you?re the scum of the earth. It all depends on the circumstances at the time.
-
[QUOTE]you obviously have never served. few if any serve for the "greatest happiness in these sorts of high-danger jobs", mainly because its not the danger that makes them happy. I did not go to the military because i wanted glory. i went because of my sister, who could not even read the oil stick in her car, nor figure out how to take care of it. i went because of my brother, who great as i believed he was, could never live outside of a small farm town. i went because of a friend that wanted to be a rock singer. i went because of a cousin that wanted to be a teacher when she grew up. do you think these people would have had the choise to be what they wanted under communism, under a dictator, nor could hundreds of other people's sisters, cousins, brothers or friends. My father is a farmer. he choises what crops to plant. would he have that ability under many of the regimes that have announced they were going to rule us. Did these people know why i went, no. it was never mentioned. they did not know. many did not care, nor would they if i had told them. my wife went for simular reasons. Did she go for the glory. what glory? a 2 inch picture stuck between the weddings announcements and the obits? who but here family would even notice? many of here family did not even care to notice. there is no "happyness in the danger" of repairing cameras. there is no "happyness in the dangerous job" of repairing an aircraft. My wife died flying from one air field to another, something that could have happened in civilian life. there was no more danger than to be happy about than in civilian life. people do not volenteer for service out of happyness in dangerous professions. nor do they do it for glory. they do it to serve and protect those who cant protect themselves. If my brother had to, he would have jumped off the tractor and picked up a gun, but it was not something he choise to do. i chose to do so, so that he would not have to, so that others would not have to. most others that i know that made that choice did so for simular reasons. is this altrusism, ill leave that for others to decide. all i can tell you is i had to go and that this is why.[QUOTE]
-
People make decisions based on their attachments. Go to war, or go to jail. Go to war for my family and friends, or stay at home and suffer guilt and shame.

Attachments carry people along on a roller coaster ride of happiness and sorrow.
-
Sue

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#8035 - 08/11/06 04:54 AM Re: Evolution
Sue Hindmarsh Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/08/06
Posts: 20
Loc: Australia
DA Morgan wrote:

Sue wrote:
"Yet to refuse to donate organs, or give bone marrow may bring more ?risks? than if you had. For example: if you live in a culture, family or couple where the other member/s value donating a kidney, etc,"

[QUOTE]
I'll grant that if you'll grant that it is not true for most the the inhabitants of the planet. And certainly not for those in first-world countries.[QUOTE]

-
The example I gave could easily be turned the other way round: that is, if you did agree to donate organs and your culture, family, etc, didn?t want you to, and threatened to disown you, or not respect you anymore ? you may then feel that your desire (whatever it may be) is not worth losing your loved ones for.

It all comes down to how strong your attachment is.
-

[QUOTE]
You seem to misuse the word "ego" in what you've written. If you want people to understand some pseudo-Freudian usage you need to explain your intent.[QUOTE]

-
Ego = Attachments.
-

[QUOTE]You seem awfully determined to be RIGHT. They just did it equates in the real-world with intrinsic behaviour ... we call it instinct. And it is altruistic. You are mincing words at the expense of intellectual integrity.[QUOTE]

-
Are you suggesting that ?intrinsic behaviour/instinct? is not subject to cause and effect?
-

[QUOTE]
Blacknad challenged you to provide a reference and you didn't. I know it is terribly unfriendly to do so and often gets in the way of people who wish to pontificate. But this IS a science forum and you really do NEED to provide some supporting material other than torturing the English language to support your point-of-view. Can you?[QUOTE]

-
Are you saying that an individual must always have his or her intellectual authority acknowledged by others before YOU can establish for yourself if what they are saying is true or not?

If that is the case ? where is your reference?

Not that it would influence me one iota ? as I judge people by their minds ? not by what others think of them.

-
Sue

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#8036 - 08/11/06 05:02 AM Re: Evolution
Sue Hindmarsh Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/08/06
Posts: 20
Loc: Australia
DA Morgan wrote:

[QUOTE]
Been there.
Done that.
Got the T-shirt too.[QUOTE]

-
Do you reduce life down to these few sentences because you feel jaded?

What about this forum? If you are not at all curious about life, the universe and everything ? why then write to a forum which strives to explore these things?

-
Sue

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#8037 - 08/11/06 05:27 AM Re: Evolution
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
What's wrong Sue? Why can't you answer the question about the shark and the child?

Did you not understand the question?

Do you not understand how it relates directly to the topic we have been discussing which is altruism?

Do you fail to realize that it is a situation faced in the real world, from time-to-time, by real people?

Which is it Sue? Are you going to swim toward the child or the beach?

Perhaps you could just respond with a single keystroke: "B" for "BEACH" or "C" for "CHILD".
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#8038 - 08/11/06 05:45 AM Re: Evolution
Sue Hindmarsh Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/08/06
Posts: 20
Loc: Australia
dehammer wrote:

[QUOTE]the problem with this arguement is that it predisposes that the persons stops and thinks about the dangers and consequences of that act. as has been proven many times, such as proven by your comment that "From experience, we know that people who ?believe? they can do something often find out the hard way that they cannot", it is rare for someone to stop to think in these cases. people react from gut reactions. either their fear stops them from acting, or their desire to aid is strong enough to overcome the all too human fear. this is why people go out into danger to save a total stranger. this is why a mother will throw away her life to protect a child. this is why men battle beast that have, at least in the past, had a great chance of killing them or their families. people dont rush into a burning building to save another persons life because they want rewards. they do it because the other person will die if they do not act and act quickly. people dont rush out to save a person drowning because they want to get their name in the papers. they do it because the other person is in peril.[QUOTE]

-
As I?ve said already ? our attachments are deeply rooted in us ? so much so, that we do not have to ?think? before we act. That is why some people do the most horrible things to each other in the name of love, peace and kindness.

For example: a woman tells her husband that she will love him forever, but then meets someone who she finds more attractive, and runs off with him. The husband reminds her that she had said that she would love him forever. She replies that that was then, and this is now.

Armies fighting on different sides of the battle field both feel that they are fighting for what is right.

A man runs into a burning house to save his neighbour, only to perish himself, whilst his neighbour survives. His heroic deed leaves behind a wife and two small children, who end up losing their home and lifestyle because they have lost their sole breadwinner. The neighbour helps out for as long as he can, but he too has a mortgage to pay, and small children to feed and educate.

As we can see, the combination of attachments and circumstances is what comprises our existence. If we did take our lives more seriously and consider our attachments, we would then be able to understand our actions better and thereby deal more wisely with circumstances as they arose.

-
Sue

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#8039 - 08/11/06 09:59 AM Re: Evolution
Sue Hindmarsh Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/08/06
Posts: 20
Loc: Australia
DA Morgan wrote:

[QUOTE]
What's wrong Sue? Why can't you answer the question about the shark and the child?

Did you not understand the question?

Do you not understand how it relates directly to the topic we have been discussing which is altruism?[QUOTE]

-
Could you explain how it relates to this topic?
-

[QUOTE]
Do you fail to realize that it is a situation faced in the real world, from time-to-time, by real people?

Which is it Sue? Are you going to swim toward the child or the beach?

Perhaps you could just respond with a single keystroke: "B" for "BEACH" or "C" for "CHILD".[QUOTE]

-
I never bothered to respond to that paragraph because I've made clear in all of my posts what the answer is. But to stop your nagging, here is my answer.

"Child or Beach"? It of course would depend on my attachments at that time. Having lived on an Island when I was younger, I've spent a lot of time in the ocean swimming, deep-sea fishing, snorkeling, etc, and therefore have run into quite a few sharks. Perhaps because of this experience, I might go the child?s rescue. The fact that I?m now middle-aged and unfit would make any rescue attempt more difficult, but I still might give it a go.

As I keep saying: our attachments are always changing due to changing circumstances. Because of this fact, it is impossible to predict what will happen in the future.
-
Sue

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#8040 - 08/11/06 10:12 AM Re: Evolution
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
Quote:
Originally posted by Sue Hindmarsh:
As I?ve said already ? our attachments are deeply rooted in us ? so much so, that we do not have to ?think? before we act. That is why some people do the most horrible things to each other in the name of love, peace and kindness.

For example: a woman tells her husband that she will love him forever, but then meets someone who she finds more attractive, and runs off with him. The husband reminds her that she had said that she would love him forever. She replies that that was then, and this is now.

Armies fighting on different sides of the battle field both feel that they are fighting for what is right.

A man runs into a burning house to save his neighbour, only to perish himself, whilst his neighbour survives. His heroic deed leaves behind a wife and two small children, who end up losing their home and lifestyle because they have lost their sole breadwinner. The neighbour helps out for as long as he can, but he too has a mortgage to pay, and small children to feed and educate.

As we can see, the combination of attachments and circumstances is what comprises our existence. If we did take our lives more seriously and consider our attachments, we would then be able to understand our actions better and thereby deal more wisely with circumstances as they arose.

-
Sue
Sue,

There is no content here.

You write - 'As we can see...'

I wouldn't take that forgranted. I don't see that your points coherently bring us to 'see' anything.

Is there anything you can point to that backs up your position besides your own 'infallible' logic - or did you just have a eureka moment in the bath one day?

This may be acceptable in high school but you can't get away with it here. I direct you to:

www.psychomumbojumboagogo.com

Blacknad.

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#8041 - 08/11/06 02:44 PM Re: Evolution
TheFallibleFiend Offline
Megastar

Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 1940
Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp...
TheFallibleFiend wrote:

tff: "The altruism debate seems related to the freewill debate. It's something that I just don't think we have enough knowledge to definitely answer right now."

SH: "So that is your "definite answer" on the issue?"

TFF: "That is my answer until I stumble on to a stronger conclusion that has some consensus in the scientific community."

tff: "Just because something can reasonbly be explained by X doesn't mean that X is the explanation."

sh: "What about reason and logic - are you saying that it is absolutely impossible for us to use those tools to uncover the truth about things? "

What about reason and logic? It takes more to be reasonable and logical than merely to invoke the words. A thing can sound reasonable and be logically consistent and yet have no discernable correspondence with physical reality. That's why science exists - a scientific theory has to produce testable hypotheses which would disprove it, if it were wrong. This is the central point that separates modern science from religion.

I'm not asserting that altruism is more than illusory, nor am I asserting that the question is inherently unanswerable. Right now you have explanations - that's a good start. Are there experiments you might devise that could disprove a generalized statement of these explanations, if it they are wrong?

Top
#8042 - 08/11/06 05:34 PM Re: Evolution
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
I wrote:
"What's wrong Sue? Why can't you answer the question about the shark and the child?"

Sue responded:
"Could you explain how it relates to this topic?"

No I can't Sue. It is just a question you seem wholly incapable of confronting and answering so I will ask it yet again.

If you look out into the water and see a child swimming and a shark's fin in the area do you swim toward the child or the beach.
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#8043 - 08/11/06 09:50 PM Re: Evolution
dehammer Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
Quote:
Originally posted by Sue Hindmarsh:
DA Morgan wrote:

[QUOTE]
Been there.
Done that.
Got the T-shirt too.[QUOTE]

-
Do you reduce life down to these few sentences because you feel jaded?

What about this forum? If you are not at all curious about life, the universe and everything ? why then write to a forum which strives to explore these things?

-
Sue
he used those words to indicate to me that he had been in the same place as i and understood where i was coming from. there was no need for more.
_________________________
the more man learns, the more he realises, he really does not know anything.

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#8044 - 08/11/06 09:59 PM Re: Evolution
dehammer Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
Quote:
Originally posted by Sue Hindmarsh:
Yes they did ? they showed that they did not value their sacrifice.
so where did they get satisfaction from the value of their sacrifice being showered on them. you claimed this was the reason they went. If this was the reason, why did those who saw this think they would get it instead when they returned.

Quote:
People make decisions based on their attachments. Go to war, or go to jail. Go to war for my family and friends, or stay at home and suffer guilt and shame.

Attachments carry people along on a roller coaster ride of happiness and sorrow.
-
Sue
what jail. that is only for those who are avoiding the draft. there are ways to do it even during the draft that does not involve having to "suffer guilt and shame". during peace time when there is no draft, there is do discussion of avoiding jail. during these times it is a choice of where to go and when. just because there are connections that make you want to go, IE, family and friends, does not mean that you have to go. few people feel any guilt or shame from not going to the military during peace time. Is it any less altruistic to join the military to safeguard your family and friends during peace time, just because you have friends and family. My family would have been much happier if i had stayed on the farm and helped the family rather than risking my life to go where i needed to be to protect them.
_________________________
the more man learns, the more he realises, he really does not know anything.

Top
#8045 - 08/11/06 10:14 PM Re: Evolution
dehammer Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
Quote:
Originally posted by Sue Hindmarsh:
As I?ve said already ? our attachments are deeply rooted in us ? so much so, that we do not have to ?think? before we act. That is why some people do the most horrible things to each other in the name of love, peace and kindness.

For example: a woman tells her husband that she will love him forever, but then meets someone who she finds more attractive, and runs off with him. The husband reminds her that she had said that she would love him forever. She replies that that was then, and this is now.

Armies fighting on different sides of the battle field both feel that they are fighting for what is right.

A man runs into a burning house to save his neighbour, only to perish himself, whilst his neighbour survives. His heroic deed leaves behind a wife and two small children, who end up losing their home and lifestyle because they have lost their sole breadwinner. The neighbour helps out for as long as he can, but he too has a mortgage to pay, and small children to feed and educate.

As we can see, the combination of attachments and circumstances is what comprises our existence. If we did take our lives more seriously and consider our attachments, we would then be able to understand our actions better and thereby deal more wisely with circumstances as they arose.

-
Sue
it appears to me you are arguing against yourself. the man that runs into the burning house does not take the time to consider that he will leave his wife and child without a husband and father who brings home the bacon. according to you, he would never go in because of the high possibility that he would leave them without food and shelter.

the wife that leaves her husband after telling him that she loves him, either never did (she lied possibly to herself) or something happen (wife beating husband?) to make her change her feelings for him. what does that have to do with altruism.

the armies fight for what they believe, and what they believe the enemy believes. I once heard a story of a German pow during ww2 who was very depressed. a guard tried to cheer him up saying that the pow might be home by Christmas. the pow was shocked to find out that the people he had been fighting for 5 years believed in Christ, something he had been told only Germans did. a large number of the Nazi soldiers were fighting a holy war to take christianity to the rest of the world. a large number of Japaneses believe that their emperor was from god (or a god) and that he would bring the world to peace. does these facts mean that they were less altruistic than the allies? some of the leaders may have been criminals but the soldiers were not.
_________________________
the more man learns, the more he realises, he really does not know anything.

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#8046 - 08/11/06 11:11 PM Re: Evolution
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
dehammer wrote:
"here are ways to do it even during the draft that does not involve having to "suffer guilt and shame"."

Yeah. And if you did them well you could some day grow up to be the President, Vice President, or Secretary of Defense of the United States.

Does anyone see them expressing sincere regret?

dehammer asks:
"Is it any less altruistic to join the military to safeguard your family and friends during peace time"

No it is not. Many of those currently in Iraq joined during peace time: Probably almost all of them. Life doesn't come with guarantees

Now Sue about the child and the shark. Can you answer a simple question? Swim for the child at some personal risk or the safety of the beach?

And while you are contemplating this incredibly difficult problem of ethics, morality, personal value system, bravery, and cowardice ... tell us about how it is all about ego again.

And a few quotes, Sue, to contemplate while facing the most difficult question of your life:

?Bravery is the capacity to perform properly even when scared half to death.?
~ General Omar Bradley

?Firemen are going to get killed. When they join the department they face that fact. When a man becomes a fireman his greatest act of bravery has been accomplished. What he does after that is all in the line of work. They were not thinking of getting killed when they went where death lurked. They went there to put the fire out, and got killed. Firefighters do not regard themselves as heroes because they do what the business requires.?
~ Chief Edward F. Croker
Chief of Dept. NYFD

Oh and Aristotle who you dared to reference:
?Moral excellence comes about as a result of habit. We become just by doing just acts, temperate by doing temperate acts, brave by doing brave acts.?
You should read him sometime.

And here's one for you in honor of your fear of a simple question:

?The brave may not live forever but the cautious do not live at all.?
~ Meg Cabot
_________________________
DA Morgan

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#8047 - 08/12/06 01:28 AM Re: Evolution
Sue Hindmarsh Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/08/06
Posts: 20
Loc: Australia
Blacknad wrote:

[quote]
There is no content here.

You write - 'As we can see...'

I wouldn't take that forgranted. I don't see that your points coherently bring us to 'see' anything.

Is there anything you can point to that backs up your position besides your own 'infallible' logic - or did you just have a eureka moment in the bath one day?

This may be acceptable in high school but you can't get away with it here.[quote]

-
But you do agree to allow each other to ?get away with? sitting in your little sewing circle and gossiping amongst yourselves. What you will not allow here, is serious debate.

You continue to ask me to ?back up? my argument when not once has anyone presented an argument for the true existence of altruism ? unless you expect me to accept your wishy-washy sentiments instead of a rational argument. That, I can not do; as I value rationality, and not sentiment.

I?ve present examples of the logical truth that altruism doesn?t exist time and time again. Now it is up to you to do the same.

Come on guys ? surely having a deep interest in getting to the roots of all life, has meant that you don?t take anything as truth unless you first push reason to its very extreme, and in so doing, ensure that any tenets you live by, accord with reason and logic. No one wants to live a lie ? do they?

-
Sue

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#8048 - 08/12/06 01:43 AM Re: Evolution
Sue Hindmarsh Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/08/06
Posts: 20
Loc: Australia
TheFallibleFiend wrote:

[quote]
That is my answer until I stumble on to a stronger conclusion that has some consensus in the scientific community.

Just because something can reasonbly be explained by X doesn't mean that X is the explanation.[quote]

I wrote:
[quote]What about reason and logic - are you saying that it is absolutely impossible for us to use those tools to uncover the truth about things?[quote]

TFF replied:
[quote]What about reason and logic? It takes more to be reasonable and logical than merely to invoke the words. A thing can sound reasonable and be logically consistent and yet have no discernable correspondence with physical reality. That's why science exists - a scientific theory has to produce testable hypotheses which would disprove it, if it were wrong. This is the central point that separates modern science from religion.[quote]

-
Well you guys are doing a good job of masquerading as religious fundamentalist with all your sentimental irrational posturing.

Why can?t you stand by your own thinking on this matter? You?re prepared to trust some other people?s opinions on topics, but not your own?

Why not try? Construct a ?logically consistent? argument for the existence of altruism, and we?ll debate it.

I?ve done it by showing that altruism doesn?t exist due to all human action being caused by our attachments. I?ve explain very clearly that it is impossible for us to do things unselfishly whilst we have an ego. This is a logical statement, based on the Law of Identity: A=A. That is: on the one side we have the non-existence of altruism equallingthe fact that each and every one of us has an ego, which causes us always to act in self interest. It can?t get any simpler than that.
-

TFF continued:
[quote]I'm not asserting that altruism is more than illusory, nor am I asserting that the question is inherently unanswerable. Right now you have explanations - that's a good start. Are there experiments you might devise that could disprove a generalized statement of these explanations, if it they are wrong?[quote]

-
Well, how about you think about it for a while, and then come back when you are ready to put forth an argument on this matter.

-
Sue

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#8049 - 08/12/06 01:52 AM Re: Evolution
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Again Sue about the child and the shark. Can you answer a simple question? Swim for the child at some personal risk or the safety of the beach?

What is it about this question that you can't face?

Anyone over 6 years old could answer it with ease? I say that because I had the opportunity, today, to ask a 6 year old what the right thing to do was. She didn't seem nearly as paralyzed with fear about it as you are.

So again Sue about the child and the shark.
_________________________
DA Morgan

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