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#7910 - 07/14/06 11:17 PM Evolution
Megalotis Offline
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Registered: 07/13/06
Posts: 6
Loc: Aridzona
One of the hardest things to get from a true believer is an account of what evolution actually is, and how evolution occurs.

Everything that I observe in nature tells me that evolution does not occur. Take three examples of birds that were transplanted to the western hemisphere for sporting purposes: ringneck pheasants, gray partridges and chukar partridges. All have been successful pioneers on this new (to their species) continent, but only within the realm of their original habitat. They all look exactly like their ancestors, and none have "evolved" the ability to expand their range into apparently friendly habitats that border their range.

Why have these species not been able to adapt and expand into new range? What prevents their adaptation?
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#7911 - 07/14/06 11:26 PM Re: Evolution
DA Morgan Offline
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Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
True believers? ROFL!

I can easily answer your questions by referring you to everything from the FACT that AIDS is evolving to the fact that everyone is worried that BIRD FLU may evolve. Apparently you flaming hypocrites only complain about evolution when it comes to humans.

Your fine with DNA mutating ... but not fine with the result of that DNA mutation might affect future generations.

What you think adaptation, in a very finite number of years, has to do with evolution is beyond my wildest imagination if I assume you are at least 15 years old and attended middle school in a first world country.

Open minds are rare when they are inside the skulls of the willfully and wantonly ignorant.
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#7912 - 07/15/06 01:27 AM Re: Evolution
Megalotis Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/13/06
Posts: 6
Loc: Aridzona
This is the sort of response I always get when I ask about evolution. Attacks on maturity, intelligence, education level, etc. are par for the course. Unfortunate.

Can I assume that you have no answers? I thought that perhaps on this forum, there might be a proclivity for open discussion.

I understand that micro-organisms mutate to a degree. But do they actually change from one species to another? I don't know, therefore I ask.

The genetic imperative is that if two parents of a given species mate, their offspring will be of the same species. So how does evolution occur? Most mutations do not help an individual organism to thrive, let alone survive. I'm not aware of any mutations occurring in captive populations of aquarium fish, for example, that would aid in their survival in the wild. Are mutations considered to be the principal cause of evolution? If not, what is?

Informative responses are honestly encouraged.
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#7913 - 07/15/06 01:56 AM Re: Evolution
Pragmatist Offline
Member

Registered: 03/10/06
Posts: 84
Loc: N.W. U.S.
Pehaps this will answer your question:
http://www.nature.com/news/2006/060710/full/060710-11.html

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#7914 - 07/15/06 09:07 AM Re: Evolution
dehammer Offline
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Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
meg, what you are ignoring with your diatribe is that

1)man has not allowed them to expand beyond a certain boundary

2) evolution takes time. it does not occur in one generation (save as the result of something like a major virus attack, which i don't believe has ever happen, or the intentional intervention of a scientist, which is likely still beyond their capacity), or even several. it takes dozens of generations for even small change to affect a large part of the population.

3) moving into a new area is not evolution. its territorial migrations. that usually only occurs when the old territory is too small for the population, which in this case hunters have seen to it not happening, or it becomes to dangerous to remain. since hunting only occurs during a small part of the year, and is only allowed for the hunting of males, its not felt to be that dangerous for the species.
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#7915 - 07/15/06 03:53 PM Re: Evolution
Uncle Al Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 540
Loc: Southern California
Quote:
Everything that I observe in nature tells me that evolution does not occur
Darwin's finches if you have patience, methacillin-resistant staphloccous-A if you don't. The French after Napoleon selectively killed tall aggressive Frenchmen while diddling with Moscow. Hand vasculature response to severe cold, Esquimos vs. Europeans. Thalassemia and sickle cell anemia vs. malarial resistance in Mediterranian Whites and Equatorial Blacks, respectively. Corn from teosinte. Melanotic forms' incidence and the Industrial Revolution,

Google
"industrial melanism" 28,300 hits
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http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
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http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/qz3.pdf

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#7916 - 07/15/06 05:00 PM Re: Evolution
dehammer Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
point being, if you have not noticed any sign of evolution in nature, then your not looking at nature.
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the more man learns, the more he realises, he really does not know anything.

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#7917 - 07/16/06 01:37 AM Re: Evolution
Mike Kremer Offline

Megastar

Registered: 10/16/04
Posts: 1696
Loc: London UK
Quote:
Originally posted by dehammer:
meg, what you are ignoring with your diatribe is that

2) evolution takes time. it does not occur in one generation (save as the result of something like a major virus attack, which i don't believe has ever happen, or the intentional intervention of a scientist, which is likely still beyond their capacity), or even several. it takes dozens of generations for even small change to affect a large part of the population.

Hi dehammer,
As you state. "Evolution takes time"
Surely that depends upon the form of life involved?

Simple life forms, such as Viruses seem to adapt rather quickly? Or would you say mutate? Or call it evolvement?
Evolvement to me - requires it to be a change into something better, and permanent?

Also the higher up the animal kingdom we go the slower the evolution. Is that true?
If it is, would you say that is because Nature has produced a more stable DNA in the higher life forms? Higher life forms are more perfected?
Since any mutation/evolvement would tend to be less than perfect, even detrimental?
With us Humans, I am really not sure what evolvement, for our long term (good), has ever occured since the beginning of our history?

In fact come to think of it, couples with large Victorian families, theoreticaly, should evolve
faster than couples with small families. Would you agree with that?
Then again, with all the mixings of the human races that is going on today, is'nt that actually preventing our Evolution, per se?
(I'm not considering our final brown/yellow color) Since, would'nt a complete mixing of the human races actually prevent (visible) Evolution?

You mentioned Viruses might cause evolvement.
Interesting. Do you mean we would become resistant to diseases? ie Plague, Ebola, Aids etc
I'd be interested re your comments. Tnx, Mike
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.
"You will never find a real Human being - Even in a mirror." ....Mike Kremer.



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#7918 - 07/16/06 05:00 AM Re: Evolution
Megalotis Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/13/06
Posts: 6
Loc: Aridzona
Dehammer said:

Quote:
1)man has not allowed them to expand beyond a certain boundary
Not the case at all. This sort of limitation would be impossible to effect. In fact, man has tried with limited success to greatly expand the range of all three species through introduction of both wild-caught and captive-raised individuals. The introductions are either successful or not, based on the ability of the species to adjust to local conditions. In no case has any of the three species been able to colonise territory that is dissimilar to their native range in the eastern hemisphere.

What, for instance, stops the gray (Hungarian) partridge from moving south into central/southern Nebraska and Kansas? For some reason, after dozens of generations, the species has been unable to expand southward. Why no adaptation?

Quote:
2) evolution takes time. it does not occur in one generation (save as the result of something like a major virus attack, which i don't believe has ever happen, or the intentional intervention of a scientist, which is likely still beyond their capacity), or even several. it takes dozens of generations for even small change to affect a large part of the population.
Understood. However, all three species have been here (the western hemisphere) for dozens of generations. In the case of the ringneck, over 100 generations.

Quote:
3) moving into a new area is not evolution. its territorial migrations. that usually only occurs when the old territory is too small for the population, which in this case hunters have seen to it not happening, or it becomes to dangerous to remain. since hunting only occurs during a small part of the year, and is only allowed for the hunting of males, its not felt to be that dangerous for the species.
Right, but my point was that if these species are adapting (why wouldn't they in a world of evolution) why are they unable of themselves to colonize territory over that of their original territorial expansion?

What has happened in the case of all three is that, once released into acceptable habitat, they expand rather quickly to inhabit all of the contiguous territory that meets their habitat needs. Something of a population explosion. Then predation steps up to the challenge, "discovers" the new species, and the population dynamics of all concerned organisms adjust and adapt to the new situation. Eventually, population equilibrium is reached within a few generations, and the new species becomes subject to the regular population swings that we see in nature.

Hunters, by the way, account for a small fraction of the population in any given year. It is true that hunting is limited to males only for ringneck pheasants, but the partridges do not offer the degree of sexual dimorphism that would allow for quick sexual identity as required in a hunting situation. In addition, the partridges are generally monogamous, so hunting males exclusively would be counter-productive.
_________________________
An open mind is a rare and precious thing. If you agree with me, you are open-minded.

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#7919 - 07/16/06 05:12 AM Re: Evolution
Megalotis Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/13/06
Posts: 6
Loc: Aridzona
Uncle Al said:

[quote]Darwin's finches if you have patience, methacillin-resistant staphloccous-A if you don't. The French after Napoleon selectively killed tall aggressive Frenchmen while diddling with Moscow. Hand vasculature response to severe cold, Esquimos vs. Europeans. Thalassemia and sickle cell anemia vs. malarial resistance in Mediterranian Whites and Equatorial Blacks, respectively. Corn from teosinte. Melanotic forms' incidence and the Industrial Revolution [\quote]

So we're left with nothing but short, pacifistic Frenchmen? LOL!

I agree and fully acknowledge that there are some obvious examples of adaptation over generations (survival of the most capable). What I don't see is adaptation that results in new species. And, as in the gamebird example given above, an obvious inability of higher organisms to adapt in many situations.
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An open mind is a rare and precious thing. If you agree with me, you are open-minded.

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#7920 - 07/16/06 06:12 AM Re: Evolution
Pragmatist Offline
Member

Registered: 03/10/06
Posts: 84
Loc: N.W. U.S.
" What I don't see is adaptation that results in new species."
And unless you are studying fruit flys or bacteria, you won't.
The theory is that the changes occur slowly.
You don't live long enough to see a species differentiate over many generations.
You can only look closely enough to see the 'tracks` of the process.

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#7921 - 07/16/06 11:53 AM Re: Evolution
dehammer Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
Quote:
Originally posted by Megalotis:
Not the case at all. This sort of limitation would be impossible to effect. In fact, man has tried with limited success to greatly expand the range of all three species through introduction of both wild-caught and captive-raised individuals. The introductions are either successful or not, based on the ability of the species to adjust to local conditions. In no case has any of the three species been able to colonise territory that is dissimilar to their native range in the eastern hemisphere.

What, for instance, stops the gray (Hungarian) partridge from moving south into central/southern Nebraska and Kansas? For some reason, after dozens of generations, the species has been unable to expand southward. Why no adaptation?
insufficent time, insuffient pressure, other reason, all the above.

Quote:
Understood. However, all three species have been here (the western hemisphere) for dozens of generations. In the case of the ringneck, over 100 generations.
dozens of generation is not enough for major changes. even a slightest reading of evolution will show you that the various species evolve due to a new variation giving it an advantage over the older variation. with sufficent food, and suffecient nesting places, and sufficent things to meet their other needs, what variation would give them and advantage and lead to them moving to another unknown area?

Quote:
Right, but my point was that if these species are adapting (why wouldn't they in a world of evolution) why are they unable of themselves to colonize territory over that of their original territorial expansion?
simple. what adaption would happen that would make them want to colonize another territory. to put it in simple terms, change occurs due to difficulty. man became a wonderer because the area that he was in before became cooler, and thus had less food, and it was harder to live there. as various groups expanded into different areas, they found different conditions that worked and over thousands of generation they adapted to those different conditions.

in the habatats those three species live in, there is plenty of food, plenty of everything they need. new variations would compete for the same food, etc., so would have to have to be better than the old one to show up quickly (100 generations is not that long esp in short lived species that the older generation does not compete for food with the younger one). a variation that would lead to the species changing its location would require that there be a reason for it to before it appeared. that has not happened.


Quote:
An open mind is a rare and precious thing. If you agree with me, you are open-minded.
this is very closed minded. open minded does not mean agreeing with just one person. perhaps you should be open minded and agree with others.
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the more man learns, the more he realises, he really does not know anything.

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#7922 - 07/17/06 01:27 AM Re: Evolution
Megalotis Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/13/06
Posts: 6
Loc: Aridzona
dehammer said:

Quote:
this is very closed minded. open minded does not mean agreeing with just one person. perhaps you should be open minded and agree with others.
Well, yeah! The sig line is of course tongue-in-cheek. I guess I'll remove it, since it's not understood.
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An open mind is a rare and precious thing. If you agree with me, you are open-minded.

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#7923 - 07/17/06 03:05 PM Re: Evolution
TheFallibleFiend Offline
Megastar

Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 1940
Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp...
"Everything that I observe in nature tells me that evolution does not occur. "

Try reading a book on the subject that has been written by actual scientists - scientists who are active and practicing in their fields and who have made significant contributions to their fields.

Avoid a reading diet consisting solely of creationist materials written by 4th and 5th tier "scientists" who write more for the religious magazines than for scientific journals.

There is plenty of information about how evolution occurs. The only way you could avoid seeing it is not to have looked.

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#7924 - 07/18/06 12:44 AM Re: Evolution
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Read a book?

What kind of commie pinko running dog paper tiger atheistic anti-christ kind of subversive are you? You monster.

They don't need to read books. They have the truth directly from the source ... the multi-millionaire preacher on TV.
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#7925 - 07/18/06 03:48 AM Re: Evolution
DrBarr Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/17/06
Posts: 22
Loc: Deutschland
I don't really want to get involved in this discussion, but I would like to get some things off my chest.
Please...I beg you...everyone, stop with the lame response "it takes a really long time". You all know this is an unacceptable response. Imagine if physicist said "we know the speed of light is finite but we can't figure out what it is cause it's just so damn fast". Please, there is nothing wrong with not knowing, just admit it, scientist do it all the time.

DA Morgan, AIDS does not evolve, it adapts. Evolution necessitates speciation.

Furthermore, I just can't ignore the fact that several thousand generations of fruit flys have yet to produce a single advantageous mutation.
?It is a striking, but not much mentioned fact that, though geneticists have been breeding fruit-flies for sixty years or more in labs all round the world?flies which produce a new generation every eleven days?they have never yet seen the emergence of a new species or even a new enzyme.? Gordon Rattray Taylor (former Chief Science Advisor, BBC Television), The Great Evolution Mystery (New York: Harper & Row, 1983), p. 48.

On a lighter but still baffling note. I find that pork challenges evolutionary theory. How could an animal evolve to be tastier. wink

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#7926 - 07/18/06 12:17 PM Re: Evolution
dehammer Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 1089
what you don't seem to understand is that evolution does not simply occur in a vacuum. evolution occurs due to natural selection overcoming a problem. in order to breed something you have to give it the best environment. with no problems to overcome, there is nothing for a new species to prove its better at, thus being selected over a proven variety.

lets take homosapiens. we were better hunters than are predecessors, thus they died out while we populated the globe. why? because food became more scarce as the climate changed. our predecessors were geared to a wetter, warmer environment, where we were more adjustable.

if a fruit fly shows up that is faster than the others, but is not close enough to get to the food when there are thousands of others closer, it will not have an advantage in a closed environment. in an open environment it would. therefore, breeding them does not encourage evolution, but rather discourages it.

evolution only occurs when a species is no long comfortable in its environment.
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#7927 - 07/18/06 12:26 PM Re: Evolution
TheFallibleFiend Offline
Megastar

Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 1940
Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp...
DrBarr wrote: "Furthermore, I just can't ignore the fact that several thousand generations of fruit flys have yet to produce a single advantageous mutation."

The biggest impediment that people have with evolution is in understanding what the theory actually says. They spend a lot of time and effort refuting what evolution doesn't say. The second biggest impediment is a lack of clear logic.

Evolution does not guarantee that any specific adaptations will occur. We can attempt to try to alter the natural course, but nature is still smarter than we are. We've discussed this tangentially in another thread. "Advantageous" is highly nonspecific term.

That said, we have witnessed advantageous mutations in nature and there are plenty of references already on here that point to that fact.


On another topic, Gordon Rattray Taylor's comments are interesting and he has a right to say them, but he's not a scientist and while it's true that he "studied natural sciences," that's not the same thing as getting a degree in them, much less in practicing science.

His comments disagree with what I read at talkorigins
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/speciation.html

Check out section 5.3.1 - a new species WAS formed in the lab and it was reported in
Dobzhansky, Th., and O. Pavlovsky, 1971. "An experimentally created incipient species of Drosophila", Nature 23:289-292.

Mr Taylor is not a scientist, though, and so I guess we can forgive him for his ignorance.

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#7928 - 07/18/06 12:29 PM Re: Evolution
TheFallibleFiend Offline
Megastar

Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 1940
Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp...
db: "DA Morgan, AIDS does not evolve, it adapts. Evolution necessitates speciation."

No. Evolution does not "necessitate" speciation. Evolution causes speciation. Learn what evolution is. Then you can lecture, Mr. Morgan.

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#7929 - 07/18/06 12:56 PM Re: Evolution
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
Quote:
Originally posted by DrBarr:
Furthermore, I just can't ignore the fact that several thousand generations of fruit flys have yet to produce a single advantageous mutation.
?It is a striking, but not much mentioned fact that, though geneticists have been breeding fruit-flies for sixty years or more in labs all round the world?flies which produce a new generation every eleven days?they have never yet seen the emergence of a new species or even a new enzyme.? Gordon Rattray Taylor (former Chief Science Advisor, BBC Television), The Great Evolution Mystery (New York: Harper & Row, 1983), p. 48.
Dehammer, because there is no shortage of food and no predators, each line of fruit flies is preserved. So it seems to be ideal conditions for mutations to flourish and run their course.

Okay...60 years of breeding...offspring every 11 days...say 1000 different fruit fly ancestral lines being bred across the world (surely a huge underestimation)...gives us 1,968,000 generations. Human equivalent 20 years a generation gives us 39,720,000 years of evolution without a single detectable change. Okay, all very rough but still makes me wonder when I think about the total mutational changes needed to arrive at a creature as incredibly complex as a human.

Blacknad.

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