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Earth and ET Life, and Intelligence
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(1) The preoccupation of some humans with possible existence of off-Earth "intelligent life" and their efforts in search of it are,
in our present state of comprehension of the nature of life, futile and pitiful. Our own base life elements, our genes, many of which we
share with many other Earth organisms, fulfil their sole purpose/role which is survival/proliferation, without human-culture-like toolings. Their RNA and protein toolings and chemical communications are, for their purposes, superior to our toolings for our needs and purposes. Human-culture-like traits are just a chance diversion in the course of Earth life evolution.

Other life forms might have occurred elsewhere in the universe and evolved and developed in other modes with other types of toolings and communications. They may also be devoid of human-culture-like traits/capabilities.

In order to plan and conduct an effectual search for ET life it would be wise and prudent to first agree and define the basic nature of life that may be common to all possible forms of life. And as life must evolve from life, and in view of the characteristics of life and death, life in general is most probably a "bubble of energy system", an energy-storing system initiated and maintained by energy to locally halt or reverse the direction of the observed universal thermodynamic drive to a state of ever dissipating order and energy.


(2) A common argument in favor of searching for intelligent ET life is that for examining any phenomenom it is beneficial to have several examples of it, especially if the phenomenom is intelligent and we may be able to exchange information with it.

The answer to this argument is that for a scientific examination of a phenomenom it is beneficial, but not necessary, to have several
examples, and that a huge number of phenomena were scientifically examined successfully without exchange of information between us
and the studied phenomena.


(3) About the relationship between studying the nature of Earth life and the search for intelligent ET life the question arises what is it in the human constitution that prompts most of them to have a different approach to the scientific study of life, especially human's, than to the study of anything else? Is it an apprehension of facing a dismaying realization that humans are, after all, just one of the many organisms on Earth (or in the universe...)?.

Many think that our search for intelligent ET life has much to do with our need to learn more about ourselves and that projects like SETI and exploration of space will prove much more productive for this purpose than any theoretical discussions on 'what is life'.

I posit that the possibility and probability of humans ever finding ET "intelligent" life are extremely small. After all also we are a rare enough random occurrence on Earth. Our difficulty to learn about the nature of our life is not an objective difficulty but an inherent human subjective difficulty of approach and of acceptance of findings. Exploring/understanding the nature of life here and by us has been held-up/hindered by human reticence to learn and face
the findings and their consequences, and enthusiasm for searching life there yonder while the study of it is very hesitating here is one of the symptoms of this reticence.

A determined resolute objective logical examination of Earth life will prove productive, much much more than searching for clues in the wild wild yonder by means that might or fail to deliver clues who knows when and to whom...


(4) I am not suggesting we should'nt look for ET life. I am positing that there is a near zero chance to find an ET intelligent life. We being a rare random mutation on Earth, it is staggering to reflect on the odds of a life evolving in a random energy/chemical constellation followed with a tremendous number of random mutation junctions along the stretch from a single archaic gene or even archaic cell to the rise of intelligent human.

And about our reluctance to face the probable findings re the natrure of life, a most essential, uniquely human, ingrained/inherent need for our kinsmen is some degree of self-esteem, extrapolated to esteem of our family and extended to all humans. This esteem is the basis of human cultures and civilizations which are neatly the creations of human mind and upon which is founded the existence of human individuals and of human communities of all sizes. Now just imagine how this enormous functioning edifice might be shaken, as our self-esteem is shaken when we realize the facts of the basic nature-of-life; we shall be faced with a vital need to re-formulate our culture, to anchor and build our life edifice not on faith/belief as it presently is but on deeply convincing scientific rational/ moral/ethical/social criteria...


(5) The above view is supported by the fact that there are no end of biologists, ecologists, zoologists, botanists, biochemists,
microbiologists, geneticists, and so on and so forth, all of whom investigating mechanisms and other aspects of living systems, but only very few tackling the basic nature of life.

All Earth organisms presently known are genetically interrelated. Most persons with scientific views suggest/accept that life began with individual cell(s), from origin and in manner not yet known. Some persons, myself
included, postulate that per Pasteur's "life comes from life" cells are evolutionary products, preceded by and evolved from not-yet-celled archaic RNA genes associations. In this scenario the yet-unknown is the origin and manner of occurrence of the early gene(s).

Going backwords in time to either the pre-cell life scenario or to a pre-cell-ex-machina life scenario, to a pre-Pasteur scenario, there most probably occured a constellation in which the combination of energy flow/balance plus combined presence of RNA- or pre-RNA type oligomer with its entourage of associated predecessor molecules
happened to be in an energhetic direction favourable to replication of the oligomer, initiating life in the form of an archaic gene.

The probable above scenarios raise the question if life is a unique or rare random "energy bubble" phenomenon only on Earth, where so far
we have not found life unrelated to us, or in the universe?, or if life is a universally ubiquitous phenomenom of energy bubbles.


6) There were two similar revolutionary evolutions in the history of Earth's Life Evolution:

The first was celling of the pre-celled archaic genes-associations plus their (nucleolus like?) retinues and plus their support and
environmental menues. The revolutionary aspect of this evolution was being no longer at the mercy of all environmental circumstances but,
instead, controling most of them. (Some genes associations celled without their essential menues, becoming viruses that exploit their
rich relatives). The following Darwinian evolution of poly-celled life has been a continuation and an extension of this revolutionary evolution.

The second, recent, revolutionary evolution has been initiated, in a similar vein, by some primates that adapted from life in semi- or
tropical forests to life on plains. As their changed living posture and circumstances led to modified perceptive/adaptive capabilities and to language communications, humans have gradually
replaced physiological adaptation to changing circumstances with self-evolving cultures/civilizations for control and modification of their circumstances. This is essentially similar to life's earlier celling evolution, but with culture functioning for humans in lieu of RNA and protein toolings that function for in-cell genomes.

Human cultural aspects, ALL cultural aspects, function for individual humans and for human communities of ALL sizes and all phenotypes
(distinct ethnic/national/cultural communities) in the same manner and for the same ends as biological systems function in cells. This is plainly in accord with the fractal nature of Earth life. The edifice of humankind's cooperative existence is based, though, on
faith/belief that induces/convince humans to cooperate in building and maintaining the human edifice, and the faith/belief is based on
the self-esteem of humans.

I posit that with the evolving fresh comprehension of the nature of life and of our culture we must actively participate in a worldwide effort to undergo the third revolutionary evolution, namely to replace
the faith/belief basis of culture with a scientifically rational foundation of values based on deep conviction.

end. DH.

I posit that you are a troll.

I strongly support the search for extra-terrestrial intelligence because, based massive amounts of evidence such as your post, there precious little of it here.

Second your motion DA Morgan, Dov is a troll. Allow me to take him apart piece by piece : 1:signal/order to noise/chaos is called ENTROPY, as stated in the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. 2:You assume that an INTELLIGENT alien would even WANT to call on you in your rabbit hole? 3:Ever read the BIBLE? Has it ever dawned on you that the miracles of Jesus can be explained by Arthur Clarke's 3rd Law-a sufficiently advanced technology will seem like MAGIC to a less advanced technology<2000 years ago in palestine>. 4:Jurassic Park-"life finds a way"-ever read about Darwin's survival of the fittest? Dov finally ends in anthro-centric humanism = science is superior to religion; wrong again, science and religion will shortly CONVERGE into one coherent picture, again read the BIBLE, esp REVELATION. We have oodles and gobs of info on aliens from abduction reports, wanna know how they do the missing time trick? It's in this equation : W=P ; can you decipher it?

Dear DA Morgan,

"Play nice, stick to science and science related topics. Postings containing... obscenity, those that are abusive...or otherwise inappropriate will be..."

I'm sure we'd all be interested to learn something from your comments re specific points in the post, please.

Best season's greetings.

" Science Discussion Forum " ?

Or maybe our planets are'nt even in the same galaxy...

Timer:

You wrote:
"3:Ever read the BIBLE? Has it ever dawned on you that the miracles of Jesus can be explained by Arthur Clarke's 3rd Law...."

Actually he can be explained far more easily than that. Lets look at those characteristics that define Jesus Christ.

1. Born of a virgin
2. In a stable
3. 3 days after the winter solstice (December 25)
4. Worshiped on Sundays
5. Shown with a nimbus, or halo, around his head
6. Had a last supper with his followers then returned to his father
7. Believed not to have died, but to have ascended into heaven
8. Believed to would return at the end of time to raise the dead in a physical resurrection for a final judgement, sending the good to heaven and the wicked to hell, after the world had been destroyed by fire
9. Granted his followers immortal life following baptism.
10. followed a leader called a 'papa' (pope), who ruled from the Vatican hill in Rome
11. Celebrated sacramenta (a consecrated meal of bread and wine), termed a Myazda (corresponding exactly to the Catholic Missa (mass), using chanting, bells, candles, incense, and holy water, in remembrance of the last supper

Does that pretty much sum it up?

Well The emperor Constantine was a follower of Mithra until he declared December 25 the official birthday of Jesus in 313 CE and adopted the cult of Christianity as the state religion.

For more on Mithra try google.com or click here:
http://www.iowastatedaily.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2004/12/08/41b689a9c9804

Meanwhile all you Pagans ... celebrate celebrate celebrate.

A few variances from this CHRISTIAN on CHRISTMAS eve : 1:Alien implant of fertilized seed in a virgin, like we see aliens doing to human women now<well documented>. 2:It may have been a cave rather than an outbuilding. 3:Dec 25 is JUPITER's birthday, christians just took it over from the romans. Jesus was probably born later in the winter. 4:True 5:Halo=symbolizes the mental control of the central, polar-axial electrostatic charge in the macro-galaxy ring. 6:Last supper=most beautiful and heartfelt prayer of parting friends. 7:The Turin linen tells the whole story : intense magnetic field, slam freeze body to 0 deg K, excess heat radiates as intense up/down gamma ray burst on +z/-z axis, creating scorch-image. He tells Mary Magdelene not to touch him<crogenic burns>. 8: Again, intense magnetic field from 2 anti-podal rings at N/S poles, retro-spin removes 10% of earth's SAM<lightning from the east even unto the west=Lenz's Law>. By Mom. of Inertia, earth's equator drops 1-2 miles=richter 15 earthquake=2500 deg F lava covers the whole earth. 9:immortal life to BELIEVERS. 10:Cart before the horse, eastern church pre-dates the roman<western>church. 11:Mithra was similar to christianity but no central human figure that conquered DEATH. That's what the Romans feared the most. They knew all about WAR, but what if your enemy leader can bring back to life his troops that you just killed? Like Lazarus? That's what gave them the willies...someone who had clearly defeated DEATH...

The only thing I can add from the past to the present words of wisdom by the above two of the three wise men is :

Roses are red
Violets are blueish
If it were'nt for X'mass
We'd've all been Jewish

Hope you all had a pleasant holiday
and wishing you all a good coming year...

Timer: Grow up: You wrote:

5:Halo=symbolizes the mental control of the central, polar-axial electrostatic charge in the macro-galaxy ring.

Yeah. There was a lot of consideration of polar-axial electrostatic charge 2000 years ago.

Sure. You betcha. See a competent psychiatrist.

dov:

You all are. As are all Moslems but don't tell them as they get really upset.

All three religions base their origin on the very same Abraham (Ibrahim in Arabic).

Almost all of modern history consists of a Jewish civil war. Jew against Jew, Jew against Moslem, Moslem against Christian, etc. etc. ad nauseum.

It seems they made their god in their image rather than the other way around.

This thread is not appropriate for a science forum. "Alien implant of fertilized seed" is nonsense. Sorry.

Is this the best you can do? Quoting tatty little nursery rhymes? In a Science forum? You are misguided and maldirected.

As a minister I am dismayed at your abuse of the hospitality this site offers one and all, to wit, "Speak Science, and enter!". What you have done is the equivalent of walking into a person's home and throwing around the furniture. You made a bad first impression.

As a scientist I am disturbed at the misapplication of so much intellect and intelligence aimed toward knowing the unknowable aand solving the unsolveable, when there are so many plagues of mankind begging for research to find a cure, such as cancer or depression or fibromyalgia, that would benefit greatly from that energy and enthusiasm.

Finally, as a moderator at this site, I must take a stand that what you are selling is Religion, not Science. If you truly desire it, we can arrange to have your posts confined to some other dimension of this forum. Which of the nine circles of Hell do you prefer? The Abyss, the Void, Limbo, the Inferno? Or perhaps someone else may wish to offer a suggestion?

This can be done; it is within Kate's power. We are not here to debate about belief and religion. We are here to discuss and disseminate and promote Science. Take a lesson from the teacher you so earnestly profess to follow. Render unto Science what is of Science; render unto faith what is of faith.

And if I had to put down money on the question, I'd surely bet that Science and Research is going to find a cure for my Fibromyalgia and Rheumatoid Arthritis a darn sight faster than your faith will.

As Moderator, sincerely, please heed my kindly warning. This is a Science site, and those who love and respect it will keep it so. Speak Science, and you are welcome. Flaming will not be tolerated unless you're very sophisticated at it. Disrupt, insult, and abuse others and your tenure here will be foreshortened.

And a very happy holiday season to one and all.

parting is such sweet sorrow...

enjoy yourself, minister, together with your flock.

Dov Henis
(Biochem Ph.D., Univ of Pittsburgh, Pgh,Pa.)
(present residence in Hod-HaSharon,Israel)

Kate shows a certain wave-particle/left eye-right eye blindness in not understanding a thing when seen THIS way but perfectly understandable when seen this OTHER way. "alien implant of a fertilized seed" is seen as whacky-nonsense because it sounds far-out, now try IN VITRO FERTILIZATION, a common medical practice these days; and using non-biological mother-carriers as "host" mothers because the true bio-mother has had past problems carrying a fetus to birth. If you're going to be a proper moderator Kate, learn to think with both sides of your brain...TRUTH, like the wave-particle duality of complementarity and quantum wierdness often presents a quixotic dilemma...get with nature's quixotic program.

Kate and Rose:

Feel free to kill threads like this when you see them.

The intellectual content of the web is not enhanced by such trash.

Timer,

Thanks for the neurological health tip.

You obviously believe passionately in what you talk about. Passion is a good thing to have but too much can turn into less useful things, like obsession. Most of the people on this board like to talk about scientific things, things that can be observed and measured, rather than speculative notions.

All are welcome in my faith, who come in peace and seek truth. Can you say the same for yours? The website for "Our Lady of the Perpetually Peaceful Pixels" is on the drawing board even now. But it is nothing to do with this board. I very well know the difference between "Moderator" and "Minister". And I know where Religion leaves off and Science begins.

Sorry, Kate, for stepping on your line. It was completely inadvertent. Please accept my apology.

I beg to differ with some of the comments relating to extra terrestrial life. I wholly support Dov to some extent concerning his theories relating to 'life out there'. You see until man discovers the relationship between time and space and how they fit into the universal scheme of things. It is true that ET life will be difficult to find. But some day when man discovers how to skip through time and space then it will not be so infitismal to find life out there.

For your information, I can state for the record that I and five other friends once had an Extra terrestrial encounter. Whenever we chance to meet we puzzle and ponder our experience, because we know what we saw and saw what we know. Four space craft approached each other one evening, one from the east, others from the west, south and north. They hovered equidistantly from each other for about half an hour while we watched spell bound, before they flew up into space at a phenomenal speed. They do exist and in time we will find them.