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#56024 - 06/11/16 05:23 PM the real reason why the GPS clocks were slowed !!!
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
its obvious to me that the clocks on the GPS satellites
do not need to stay in sync with the GPS stations clocks
on the earth in order to send a radio signal at a known
interval of time.

as long as all of the mobile GPS receivers on the earth know
what the interval is then the mobile GPS receivers should experience no problems in finding their location on the earth using the directly above geographical location of the 3 orbiting satellites that are in the line of sight of the GPS signal receiving device.

the same goes for the GPS stations.

the satellites have no real reason to stay time synced with
the earth based GPS stations.

any time interval would work with the system as long as the time
interval is known by the ground based systems and devices.

the system could even use a range of intervals as long as
the ground based systems and devices know what that range is
to compensate programaticaly for the changes that occur.


I have examined both the special relativity and general relativity claims using the math involved and found both
instances to not only be false but outright misleading
and detrimental to previously adhered to math discipline.

my thoughts are that people who have a strong desire to cause the
einstein theories to gain credibility found a tiny
discrepancy somewhere in the system by inventing it using
the false equations I will call it a designer discrepancy
to match the designer math for now until I figure out what
it was or even if it really is.

personally I dont believe or even think that time can
become dilated so it may even be that in order to confuse
others who might want to build and set in orbit there own
set of GPS systems they may have claimed that the clocks were
slowed down but never were.

perhaps it may simply be that the atomic clocks themselves
function faster in lower gravity and that faster functioning
caused the need to slow down the clocks frequency which would make much more sense to me than any time dilation.

atomic clocks work because of decay right?

so perhaps decay in a low gravity environment is the true reason.

and the einsten groupies jumped in and claimed it as theirs.

the same way that the QM groupies try to claim anything
and everything that has ever happened in the past as being theirs.
_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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.
#56025 - 06/12/16 01:36 AM Re: the real reason why the GPS clocks were slowed !!! [Re: paul]
samwik Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/10/06
Posts: 1164
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: paul
its obvious to me that....

I have examined both....

my thoughts are that....

personally I dont believe or even think that....

until I figure out what it was or even if it really is.
...Paul, it is always nice to see what and how you think.

I'm surprised that you don't know about both effects; about how the lower gravity does affect the nuclear decay of the atomic clocks, just as the higher speed in orbit also does affect the nuclear decay of the atomic clocks.

How can you think that "perhaps ...the atomic clocks themselves function faster in lower gravity," yet the orbital speed (which appears to act like gravity) wouldn't also affect the atomic clocks?

~
_________________________
Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

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#56030 - 06/12/16 09:50 PM Re: the real reason why the GPS clocks were slowed !!! [Re: samwik]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
Quote:
the lower gravity does affect the nuclear decay of the atomic clocks, just as the higher speed in orbit also does affect the nuclear decay of the atomic clocks


thank you , I really didnt know that , it was just a thought I
had while trying to figure out the real reason why the
clocks were slowed down.

so it has nothing to do with time dilation then.

it really is simply that atomic decay occurs at different
frequencies while exposed to different environments.

I didnt think it did have anything to do with time dilation.

but I wasnt sure why , now I am.
_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#56031 - 06/12/16 09:56 PM Re: the real reason why the GPS clocks were slowed !!! [Re: samwik]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
Quote:
the lower gravity does affect the nuclear decay of the atomic clocks, just as the higher speed in orbit also does affect the nuclear decay of the atomic clocks


thank you , I really didnt know that , it was just a thought I
had while trying to figure out the real reason why the
clocks were slowed down.

so it has nothing to do with time dilation then.

it really is simply that atomic decay occurs at different
frequencies while exposed to different environments.

I didnt think it did have anything to do with time dilation.

but I wasnt sure why , now I am.

well Im not exactly sure , I will have to check this out
of course but it seems to be more of a real reason.
_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#56035 - 06/13/16 12:03 AM Re: the real reason why the GPS clocks were slowed !!! [Re: paul]
samwik Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/10/06
Posts: 1164
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: paul
Quote:
the lower gravity does affect the nuclear decay of the atomic clocks, just as
the higher speed in orbit also does affect the nuclear decay of the atomic clocks
thank you , I really didnt know that, it was just a thought I had
while trying to figure out the real reason why the clocks were slowed down.

so it has nothing to do with time dilation then.

it really is simply that atomic decay occurs at different
frequencies while exposed to different environments.

I didnt think it did have anything to do with time dilation.
...good to hear you're discovering something new under the sun, but I worry if you think...

===
"it really is simply that atomic decay occurs at different
frequencies while exposed to different environments."

...because of course there isn't any relationship between Time, and the Rate of atomic decay? ...I'm just asking. crazy
~
_________________________
Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

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#56036 - 06/13/16 02:11 AM Re: the real reason why the GPS clocks were slowed !!! [Re: samwik]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
Quote:
it really is simply that atomic decay occurs at different
frequencies while exposed to different environments.



Quote:
because of course there isn't any relationship between Time, and the Rate of atomic decay? ...I'm just asking.


over the years atomic decay has been used to standardize time
as closely as possible and from what I have read the cesium atom
has been the favorite , but I have also read that other materials
and processes can be used to make similar clocks.

the fountain clocks are extremely accurate to zero gain or loss
of a single second in over a hundred million years.

thats all good but if your out in space flying around in a
diverse number of gravity fields and changing your vector to
get to a certain position then a clock that is so drastically affected by both gravity and velocity or basically any change
in motion or local environment wouldnt really be the best
choice I wouldnt think.

so yes there is a relationship between time and the rate of
atomic decay.

but as it appears different material has different rates
of decay.

so the only material that adheres to the chosen rate is
the chosen cesium material.

all else will follow its natural rate of decay and is not
bound by the rate that cesium decays.

so what that tells me is that the time standard that we use
is related to the rate of decay of the cesium material.

so would time dilate faster or slower for cesium material
than it would for any other material?

what do you think?

can you say that all materials that are subjected to the
same amounts of gravity and velocity and basically any
change in local environment will undergo the same exact
rate of decay as the cesium?

if the cesium rate of decay changes due to gravity and velocity
changes as you say it does wouldnt that say that all other materials that undergo a natural rate of decay would also undergo a change in rate of decay like the cesium?

if they will all undergo the same rate of decay then why
would they only use cesium as their favorite material.

I dont believe that all materials would undergo the same
rate of decay change as the cesium material.

could it be that what you think is time dilation is only
occurring in the cesium material?

if not then why not simply use any material if all materials
that are exposed to the changes in gravity and velocity
and basically any changes to their local environment
are affected by the same amount of time dilation...




_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#56037 - 06/13/16 05:25 AM Re: the real reason why the GPS clocks were slowed !!! [Re: paul]
samwik Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/10/06
Posts: 1164
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: paul
so yes there is a relationship between time and the rate of atomic decay.
...
so would time dilate faster or slower for cesium material
than it would for any other material?

what do you think?
I think time would dilate the same for all matter/materials.

Originally Posted By: paul
I dont believe that all materials would undergo the same
rate of decay change as the cesium material.

could it be that what you think is time dilation is only
occurring in the cesium material?
I doubt it. Why would it only affect cesium?
I'd guess this has been tested with something other than cesium-based clocks, but I haven't checked.

Originally Posted By: paul
if not then why not simply use any material if all materials
that are exposed to the changes in gravity and velocity
and basically any changes to their local environment
are affected by the same amount of time dilation...
I'd expect that cesium has several advantages.
If I had to guess, it's probably the most cheaply abundant material, with some important property such as extremely weak electronegativity,
which might contribute to an easily detected vibration, but that is probably also easily researched.
===

If you want to see a demonstration:
The first of six episodes of "Genius by Stephen Hawking," is entitled "Can We Time Travel?"
I think that is the episode where, by moving one atomic clock to the top of a mountain,
it travels a bit in time ...relative to another synchronized atomic clock remaining back at the base of the mountain.

~ cool
_________________________
Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

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#56038 - 06/13/16 01:19 PM Re: the real reason why the GPS clocks were slowed !!! [Re: samwik]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
Quote:
I think time would dilate the same for all matter/materials.


well , Im not certain about this - yet.

but from what I understand so far what must be occurring
is the atomic clock is counting the
number of cycles that occur between the excited stage and
the de-excited stage of a cesium atom ...

ie ... counting the number of the changes in energy levels
that occur and the cesium atom naturally experiences
energy level changes at a frequency of 9,192,631,770 times
per second , I can use the word second here because the word
second is now defined as the amount of time that corresponds
with the frequency of the cesium atom ( 9,192,631,770 ).

each material has its own frequency.
pretty much everything has its own frequency if its the way
Im thinking it is.

anyway the only reason that there is a difference in the
change in frequency of the cesium atom on the top of a
mountain or inside a satellite is because of the changes
in magnitude of gravity and velocity.

and the reason that the changes in magnitude of gravity
and velocity affect the natural resonance frequency of
the cesium atom is due to the stresses placed upon the
electrons of the cesium atom by the changes in magnitude
of gravity and velocity.

all materials have a unequal resonance and this means
that the electrons of each of the diverse number of materials orbit their respective center at a different constant change
in velocity and at different distances from the center of the atom.

there is no way that the external forces that are presented
equally to the diverse number of materials could possibly affect
the electrons of each different material equally because they
do not share the same constant change in velocity nor do
they share the same distance from the center.

so if there is a cesium atom sitting beside a hydrogen atom
and they are exposed to the same external stresses the
the cesium atom would experience a unnatural change in its
natural frequency due to the external forces.

but the hydrogen atom would not experience an equal change
in its frequency.

it would experience a change however.

just not equal.

so all materials would experience a different change in frequency.


and since time is now based on the number of cycles of a
cesium atom each second then this means that the only material
that experiences the same amount of time dilation is the
cesium material.

all other materials would experience a different amount of
time dilation.

basically because time is defined as the frequency
of a cesium atom ... and time is inside the time dilation
equations.

you could just as well trade the t for time with a
symbol representing the cesium frequency inside the
time dilation equation.

so if the equation were true then the equations only say
that time slows down or speeds up for the cesium atom alone!!!

so the equation cannot be used to determine the amount of time
dilation for any other material unless the (t) for time is
replaced by a symbol that represents the frequency
of the material being subjected to the external stresses.

which would require a re write of the equation
because currently the equation is bound by the
time standard that is bound to the frequency
of the cesium atom.

and magic doesnt appear to work in classical physics.


LOL^3



_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#56042 - 06/14/16 07:43 AM Re: the real reason why the GPS clocks were slowed !!! [Re: paul]
samwik Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/10/06
Posts: 1164
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: paul
...the only reason that there is a difference in the change in frequency of the cesium atom on the top of a mountain or inside a satellite is
because of the changes in magnitude of gravity and velocity.
...
the only material that experiences the same amount of time dilation is the cesium material.

all other materials would experience a different amount of time dilation.
...even if it’s true that “each material has its own frequency” and “all materials have a unequal resonance,”
why wouldn’t you expect “the changes in magnitude of gravity and velocity” would affect all materials proportionally?


I can’t wrestle with your logic Paul, since there is no foundation upon which to stand.
We’ve both offered up our best guess as to how matter is affected by gravity or motion, but without much knowledge or any evidence.

It’s nice to see however, that you can acknowledge some "amount of time dilation" does occur, and that

...some "amount of time dilation" occurs, not only to cesium atoms,
but also that “all other materials would experience ...time dilation.”

...though I still expect time dilation would have the same effect, proportionally ...on all matter.

~ wink
_________________________
Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

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#56044 - 06/14/16 02:36 PM Re: the real reason why the GPS clocks were slowed !!! [Re: samwik]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
Quote:
why wouldn’t you expect “the changes in magnitude of gravity and velocity” would affect all materials proportionally?

I can’t wrestle with your logic Paul, since there is no foundation upon which to stand.


my foundation = an understanding of physics and in this case
the motion of objects and the reactions of objects in motion
when an object is subjected to external forces.

which is the best foundation to stand on ( in this particular case ) !!!

you do agree that all materials are affected by
gravity and velocity so lets start there.

lets look at a single atom with a single electron.

1) the atom as a whole has a velocity in a direction at any
time.

2) the electron has a velocity as it orbits the
center of its atom at any time.

as we are looking at the atom as a whole it is moving
horizontally in front of our eyes from left to right.
and the orbit of the electron is on the same plane
as the atoms direction.
so that as you look at the electron it it appears to move
from left to right then from right to left
as it orbits.

3) atoms are affected by gravity.

4) electrons are affected by gravity.

the atom as a whole has a velocity of .1 meters per second.

the electron has a angular velocity of the speed of light.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angular_velocity

we now add gravity into the picture.

the gravity source is directly below our feet and is pulling
on both the nucleus of the atom and the electron.

the nucleus of the atom has an amount of momentum that is
directed from left to right.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Momentum

the electron of the atom has an amount of angular momentum
as it orbits the nucleus.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angular_momentum

the force required to cause a desired amount of change to
the velocity of the nucleus and the force required
to cause the same amount of change to the angular velocity
of the electron is different.

this is due to the differences in momentum between the nucleus
and the electron.

when the nucleus begins to move downwards due to the external
gravity force the electron will not move downwards at the same rate of speed as the nucleus.

this causes the electron to shift its orbital plane depending
on its location in its orbit about the nucleus.

and results in a wobbling of the atom as a whole as the atom
moves downward due to gravity.

this wobbling sets up an externally driven resonance
in the atom.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resonance

Quote:
In physics, resonance describes when a vibrating system or external force drives another system to oscillate with greater amplitude at a specific preferential frequency.


therefore since all materials have a specific
frequency then all materials will experience
a different change in resonance when exposed
to external forces due to gravity and velocity.


Quote:
It’s nice to see however, that you can acknowledge some "amount of time dilation" does occur, and that

...some "amount of time dilation" occurs, not only to cesium atoms,
but also that “all other materials would experience ...time dilation.”


still Im not going to call these changes "time dilation"

my reasoning on this is that the true time would be the
number of cycles that a cesium atom that is not exposed to
any external stresses from gravity or velocity would undergo.

this says that the clocks that were slowed down on the
satellites due to the external forces that they are exposed
to in their orbit around the earth would have in fact been
closer to true time than the clocks that are located on the earth
if they were not slowed down.

ie ... all atomic clocks on the earth have been physically
slowed down because of the gravity and velocity that affects
the cesium in the clocks that are located on the earth.

this also says that any atomic clock that depends on the
decay of a material that is located on any planet or moon
or anywhere in the cosmos that does not share the same exact magnitude
of external forces due to gravity and velocity...etc
as an identical atomic clock located on the earth
will not keep the same time.

the true time itself is not dilated.

the definition of the word "dilated" is to make larger
or to expand.

therefore the natural frequency of a cesium atom that
is not exposed to external forces such as gravity and velocity
is not made larger nor does it expand.

so the true time does not dilate.

but all of the cesium in all of the atomic clocks located on
the earth are physically affected by the magnitude of gravity and velocity
that they are exposed to because they are located on the earth.

so all of the atomic clocks on the earth were designed to
account for or utilize the dilated constricted ( shorter number ) of cycles that
occur in a cesium atom located on the earths surface.

so when they slowed the atomic clocks down on the GPS
satellites they were simply making a correction to bring
the atomic clocks on the satellites closer to earth time
when they achieved earth orbit.

only because the cesium in the atomic clocks on the satellites
will be exposed to different magnitudes of gravity and velocity
than they would be exposed to if they were going to be
located on the surface of the earth.

if we are going to continue to use the decay of a material
as our time standard then we need to realize that we need to
understand that a measurement of true time using the decay of a material
can only exist in an environment where there are no external forces felt
by the decaying material and the measurement equipment itself would prevent
a measurement of true time because the equipment itself would cause a false
measurement.

so for now ( 2016 ) what we call time is only related to the
frequency of a cesium atom and that is where the relationship stops.

time is simply a word that we use to describe the number
of changes in energy levels that a cesium atom undergoes during a period
that we call a single second.

so for today (2016) time to us can be examined as a physical occurence of a physical object.

and just because we can manipulate the frequency of the cesium used in an
atomic clock does not mean that we can manipulate any of the other material
that the atomic clock is constructed from simply by manipulating the
frequency of the cesium alone.


_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#56045 - 06/14/16 04:46 PM Re: the real reason why the GPS clocks were slowed !!! [Re: paul]
Bill Offline
Megastar

Registered: 12/31/10
Posts: 1858
Loc: Oklahoma, USA
Originally Posted By: Paul
my foundation = an complete misunderstanding of physics and in this case


My edits in Red.

Bill Gill
_________________________
C is not the speed of light in a vacuum.
C is the universal speed limit.

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#56046 - 06/14/16 05:50 PM Re: the real reason why the GPS clocks were slowed !!! [Re: Bill]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
this picture is a really nice picture I think.

heres a link to its description and also the picture
itself so that you can form your own opinion.

_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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