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#56034 - 06/12/16 11:52 PM Re: special relativity time dilation formula is false [Re: paul]
samwik Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/10/06
Posts: 1164
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: paul
I dont concern myself with algebra
I never have , I only use math on spreadsheets and
in computer programs.
"Ye shall know them by their fruits."

Before rejecting something outright, you might first seek some insight,
and then make a choice about your concerns.

[...ruminating on 'home schooling' possibilities and possible circumstances] frown
===

As I said in the other thread, "Paul, it is always nice to see what and how you think."
It's always nice to know where one stands, however frightening the perspective might be.

But now I think I can see why you can't conceive that this "time dilation formula" is true.

~ tired
_________________________
Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

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#56039 - 06/13/16 07:44 PM Re: special relativity time dilation formula is false [Re: samwik]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
Quote:
Before rejecting something outright, you might first seek some insight,
and then make a choice about your concerns.


I remember taking algebra at some point in the past.

and that is why I dont concern myself with algebra.
to me and the way I use math its not necessary in fact in
would probably be a problem trying to code an application
and trying to use algebra to do it with.

a computer program could use algebra but only if the programmer
for some strange reason wanted to waste a lot of time in
doing so.

a computer performs math in much the same way as what we
were taught in grade school... but coding the math and
assigning values to variables so that the program will perform
the needed math routines is strictly the responsibility of the
computer programmer.

I take a working equation such as the one that we are discussing
and I start at the first calculation and work my way through to
the last calculation.

and I have to assign variables to the numbers that I use to
perform the calculations other wise all I end up with is
a number.

as in

v = 5
c = 100
t = 1
t1 = 0

when I press the calculate button

v=v*v
c=c*c
t=v/c
t=sqrt(t)
t=1-t
t1=1*t

t1 is then output to a textbox.

and thats it.

theres no need for me to get any further into it than
the simple math.

same for a spreadsheet.

of course I could have spent several days writing 1000 lines of
code to make it look technical , but thats just not the way
that I am.

getting technical can slow down the computing time of the equation.

Quote:
...ruminating on 'home schooling' possibilities and possible circumstances


I cant remember taking a computer programming course that
lasted longer than the time it took to boot me from the
class because I couldnt type fast enough however.

I even had the entire paragraph memorised that the speed typing test was given for thinking that that could at least
reduce the time it took to glance back and forth to the
page.

programming isnt about speed typing its about having the intelligence to know how to form code to perform a desired
result.

so I didnt feel bad about it , it informed me that the majority
of people who did complete the course were rushed through it
so fast that when they graduated they couldnt remember anything
that they had studied in the course.

which is a lot like possibly more than 99.999 percent of all algebra course graduates.

ask them !!!


_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#56040 - 06/13/16 10:55 PM Re: special relativity time dilation formula is false [Re: paul]
Bill Offline
Megastar

Registered: 12/31/10
Posts: 1858
Loc: Oklahoma, USA
Originally Posted By: Paul
and I have to assign variables to the numbers that I use to
perform the calculations other wise all I end up with is
a number.

as in

v = 5
c = 100
t = 1
t1 = 0

when I press the calculate button

v=v*v
c=c*c
t=v/c
t=sqrt(t)
t=1-t
t1=1*t

t1 is then output to a textbox.

I'm afraid I am confused with what you are doing. I see that you are reusing all of your variables, and that confuses me.
Why don't you define some intermediate variables to make sure that you aren't changing something that shouldn't be changed. For example:

v = 5
c = 100
t= 1
a = v*v
b = c*c
d= a/b
e = 1 - d
f = sqrt(e)
t1 = t * f

That is an accurate representation of the relativistic time contraction formula, setting aside that in the formula C is a constant equal to approximately 300 million meters/second.

And of course I would probably combine those all into one long formula, rather than doing it one step at a time. But if you aren't comfortable using shorthand then this way will give a correct answer.

Maybe you really should refresh your memory of algebra.

Bill Gill
_________________________
C is not the speed of light in a vacuum.
C is the universal speed limit.

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#56041 - 06/14/16 02:12 AM Re: special relativity time dilation formula is false [Re: Bill]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
I find its easier to do it the way I posted.

theres not as many variables to keep track of.

and its easier to do an initial build of a equation
one line at a time.

but sure you could do the equation like this.

dim v=5:c=100:t=1:t1=0:v1=0:v2=0
v1 = 1-(v*v)/(c*c):v2 = sqrt(v1):t1 = t * v2

or something like that I just dont do it that way
Id rather do 1 calculation on 1 line
it makes stepping through the calculations easier
and less confusing when you are dealing with hundreds of variables.

and unlike the above I would name the variables so that they
are more recognizable to me ... like the speed of light c would be sol and the speed of light C would be SOL

v1_m1
v1_m2
v1_m3

etc... having easier to find variables makes finding errors
in equation building much easier.

and I try to reuse the same variable as I go along in the calculations then I simply give the named variable the value of the variable that I used to work the equation.

also this way you dont have too many variables storing
unnecessary data.

and I try to never have duplicate equations if possible
by sending values of variables to a routine that handles
that specific equation.

as in

100 if a >= 100 then a = 0
101 if add_10=1 then goto 600
102 if a < 101 then goto 500
103 goto 100
500 a=a+1:add_10=1:goto 100
600 a=a+10:add_10=0:goto 100

the above loop will never stop.
it will add 1 to a
then it will add 10 to a
then 1
then 10

etc...etc...etc...
this way you can set up multiple routines
in the same loop.

if you dont already program you should try it
I think you would like it.
and its free.

visual studio express.

https://www.visualstudio.com/en-us/products/visual-studio-express-vs.aspx




















_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#56043 - 06/14/16 01:12 PM Re: special relativity time dilation formula is false [Re: paul]
Bill Offline
Megastar

Registered: 12/31/10
Posts: 1858
Loc: Oklahoma, USA
Originally Posted By: Paul
I find its easier to do it the way I posted.

theres not as many variables to keep track of.

And you can lose track of what you are doing much more easily. That way you can claim that you have disproved something when you have made major errors in your math.

I would probably write it as:

t1 = t*(sqrt(1-(v^2/C^2)))

That way I can see what the equation is and only have
3 variables, t, v, and t1. t and v of course are the input values and t1 is the output value, while C is a constant.

Bill Gill
_________________________
C is not the speed of light in a vacuum.
C is the universal speed limit.

Top
#56047 - 06/14/16 05:56 PM Re: special relativity time dilation formula is false [Re: Bill]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
c is a constant but the computer does not know
that c is a constant.


v , c , t and t1 = 4 variables.
_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#56050 - 06/14/16 10:38 PM Re: special relativity time dilation formula is false [Re: paul]
Bill Offline
Megastar

Registered: 12/31/10
Posts: 1858
Loc: Oklahoma, USA
Originally Posted By: paul
c is a constant but the computer does not know
that c is a constant.


v , c , t and t1 = 4 variables.




C is a constant. You set it programmatically and then never change it. In many programming languages you can define C as a constant and you can't change it.

v and t are independent variables. They are the input values to the calculation and can be set to any value. Except of course that v cannot be greater than C.

t1 is a dependent variable. Its value depends on the outcome of the calculation performed using v and t.

You know, there is at least one site on the web where you can study math and physics for free. Khan Academy

If you studied that you might actually understand just what mistakes you are making.

Bill Gill
_________________________
C is not the speed of light in a vacuum.
C is the universal speed limit.

Top
#56051 - 06/15/16 01:04 AM Re: special relativity time dilation formula is false [Re: Bill]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
Quote:
C is a constant. You set it programmatically and then never change it. In many programming languages you can define C as a constant and you can't change it.


Im sorry bill

that is almost exactly what I did when I wrote

v=5 !!

like I said I could have spent several days in doing that
by writing 1000 lines of code , but I cant think of a real
reason to waste time on that type of filler.

I dont get paid to truncate or dilate code to make it look like
I have put a lot of work into it.

I only do what is needed for my own purposes.

but feel free to waste all the time you want to
while you are writing your own code.

some people even like to tell their life story in the
comments of code , perhaps you could write code and
then leave negative comments in the code about any thing
that you can find to be negative about.

if you could ever bring yourself to be negative about anything!

heres a page that you can start with as a beginer
to learn about constants and variables.

https://www.kidscodecs.com/variables-constants-data-types/

by the way you can also declare a value to the text
inside a textbox and disable the textbox at design time
this way the text inside the textbox is unchangeable but the value of the text inside the textbox has value is visible to the user and can be called at runtime
as in x = val(textbox1.text)

so you dont really need to declare any constants or variables
as long as you input the desired or required value into the
textbox at design time.

enabling or disabling the textbox allows the programmer
to either choose to allow users to control the value programmatically ( change the text inside the box ) or not.

and the text that is put into the textbox can be controlled
by only allowing numbers and decimals to be entered.

you can even program a string manipulation routine that will
handle the "^" symbol so that a user can enter a number
that is to be squared or cubed for instance.

and remember microsoft has developer forums that you can
become a valued member and contributor on.

you can also leave negative comments there also if you can
ever find anything to be negative about.

_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#56054 - 06/15/16 01:34 PM Re: special relativity time dilation formula is false [Re: paul]
Bill Offline
Megastar

Registered: 12/31/10
Posts: 1858
Loc: Oklahoma, USA
Originally Posted By: Paul
by the way you can also declare a value to the text
inside a textbox and disable the textbox at design time
this way the text inside the textbox is unchangeable but the value of the text inside the textbox has value is visible to the user and can be called at runtime
as in x = val(textbox1.text)

If I wanted to do something like that I wouldn't use a text box. When you disable a text box the text is grayed out. It is still readable, but it really looks odd. I would use a label. A label displays the text in the normal mode, but can't be edited by the user, so that makes it work just the same for your application, without being grayed out.

The fact is that I use labels quite a bit for displaying the results of calculations. You can change the text displayed in a label programmatically.
e. g. lblTprime.text = val(txtT.text) * sqrt(1 - val(txtV.text)^2/val(lblC.text)^2)

I do try give my text boxes and labels meaningful names. Starting them with lbl or txt gives me a quick clue as to what I am operating on and clarifies the operations I can perform on it.

This also assumes you are using Visual Basic, other languages use different conventions, but what you have been saying sounds to me like VB.

Of course I don't know what you are developing so I don't know why you would want your constant shown on the screen.

Bill Gill
_________________________
C is not the speed of light in a vacuum.
C is the universal speed limit.

Top
#56056 - 06/15/16 05:45 PM Re: special relativity time dilation formula is false [Re: Bill]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
Quote:
Of course I don't know what you are developing so I don't know why you would want your constant shown on the screen.


Im not developing anything right now.

my dev computer isnt up and running again enough for
me to trust it.

Im waiting on a hard drive that I havent ordered yet.

because the one that was in the dev computer became infected
and I wont use it anymore to dev on or connect it to the internet.

yes I use VB .net

I didnt know that you programmed.

I wouldnt grey out a textbox for my own use just to store
a constant in it.

I would simply set it and forget it
in the declarations.

and using labels is the better choice as you say for
pretty much any text or numbers.

have you ever used a controls AccessibleDescription property
or AccessibleName property to make a control array with?

you can assign the control a numbered value at design time
and then control the many different captions on the buttons , labels or text in the textboxes of the controls
in your control array at run time.

you can also reassign numbers to the controls at run time
for sorting purposes etc...

by setting up routines.

its really good for using in any type of data situation
where data is stored accessed and updated frequently and you dont
want to use the microsoft databases for any particular reason.

you can make your own working excel like spreadsheet
or database application using textboxes , labels , buttons etc
and make them function exactly the way you want them to.

_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#56058 - 06/15/16 06:12 PM Re: special relativity time dilation formula is false [Re: paul]
Bill Offline
Megastar

Registered: 12/31/10
Posts: 1858
Loc: Oklahoma, USA
I hope you have good backups of your dev computer. It wouldn't be a good thing to lose all of your work.

I haven't used those particular properties. I do use text boxes and labels quite a bit. I don't really do a lot of programming. The last thing of any consequence I did was a couple of years ago I built my own calendar that works the way I want it to, instead of accepting what somebody else thinks is the right way. The same way you do your spread sheets. You can never find anything that really does what you want. It may take some work, but at least it does what you want it to.

One thing about my calendar it can show holidays in different calendars. The Hebrew calendar, the Muslim calendar, the Chinese calendar, and several different Hindu calendars. Fortunately I found a book with basic algorithms for all of those. I just had to interpret them into VB.

Bill Gill
_________________________
C is not the speed of light in a vacuum.
C is the universal speed limit.

Top
#56059 - 06/15/16 08:41 PM Re: special relativity time dilation formula is false [Re: Bill]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
I didnt have a backup of the OS or the programs but I did have
backups of my files that I thought I wanted to keep
such as my archive of sagg and health and nutrition papers
and info , pictures , etc...

also all of my programming projects were not affected because
I made a program that moves them off the hard drive to an external
drive and I can choose which projects I want to work on
that way and it will move them back to the hard drive as needed.

I made a program once upon a time that I named My Journal ...

it was basically a calendar database and you could add notes
to the journal every day.

it didnt use a database only flat files and each day had its own flat file so you never really could lose a day unless you lost
the folder the files were in.

you could click on any date on the calendar control and the
note for that day would pop up because the note was saved
as that date as in 01_07_2004 and it used the value of the date
that you clicked on through string manipulation.

then the program loaded the 20 notes possible for that date
into an array of rich text boxes.

and each box was editable.

it seemed like every time I started working on a idea
for a program before long it was available on the internet.

which is why I made the program to move my project files
off of my dev computer in the first place.
_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#56060 - 06/15/16 10:38 PM Re: special relativity time dilation formula is false [Re: paul]
Bill Offline
Megastar

Registered: 12/31/10
Posts: 1858
Loc: Oklahoma, USA
Good, it sounds as if you didn't lose anything of major importance. That is a big part of what you need backs up.

My calendar looks pretty much like a standard calendar except it spreads all over the computer screen. In addition to the holidays, which you can add to suit yourself, I have notes on events that will happen on that day. They are in a flat file that the program reads and displays the basic information on the screen. If you hover the pointer over one of them a pop-up shows up that gives all the detail I entered for it.

As far as a program to keep your notes that sounds like like a useful idea. Before I retired I kept notes on everything I talked to anybody about using notepad, one file per day. Then I wrote a routine that would search the notes to find where it was I talked about something. That was before Windows had a routine that would search files. That gave me a lot of help trying to come up with just what was said when if a question came up.

Bill Gill
_________________________
C is not the speed of light in a vacuum.
C is the universal speed limit.

Top
#56061 - 06/16/16 12:03 AM Re: special relativity time dilation formula is false [Re: Bill]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
well I would have done a backup.

but I only wanted to back up certain files and when I
got everything loaded in the full backup was going to be
around 90 gigabytes ... and microsoft server backup wont
let you do a partial backup the first time you do a backup.

I will remember that this time.

you know after all the updates are installed and all the hardware
is installed so that I will have a recovery backup.

I cant complain though because the windows server 08 r2 that
I installed in 2009 never did give me any real problems until
I started with the android studio and oracle vbox and such
as that.

Im not going to say that that is where the infection came from
however because I dont know.

the same OS install running for 9 years + is a really good record especially on a dev machine.

the self help sort of personal programs that I make for myself
are very useful as long as they arent dependent on any of the
ever changing internet like my netflix program that stopped
functioning every time they hired a new kid off the streets
and let him mess around with the code in order to make it
look as if he was doing something.

LOL

or thats the way it seems anyway.
_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#56063 - 06/16/16 03:08 AM Re: special relativity time dilation formula is false [Re: paul]
Bill Offline
Megastar

Registered: 12/31/10
Posts: 1858
Loc: Oklahoma, USA
It is pretty well accepted that you need to keep changing your website if you want people to keep coming. But you really need to be careful not to break it. And I expect it is probably not too good an idea to include links in your programs to specific parts of any website. The front page usually at least stays there, but lower level pages tend to change frequently. If you need the information on one of those lower level pages you can have a problem if they move the information to a different page, or format it differently. I have no idea how to handle that problem when you are developing a program that gets data from a given website. I expect if I came up with a case where I needed it I would hit Google and see if I could find a solution. There are a lot of places where you can find good ideas for doing special things in programming. I know I have gotten some good ideas from VBForums

Bill Gill
_________________________
C is not the speed of light in a vacuum.
C is the universal speed limit.

Top
#56065 - 06/16/16 12:34 PM Re: special relativity time dilation formula is false [Re: Bill]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
the problem was that the format of the internal links were changed.

I used string manipulation to build a flat file database
of folders and files.

and I also saved each titles image that was connected to
a title for display purposes when the title was displayed.

I had the images stored in the database.

there was a point where the description of the title was also
stored in the image through pixel manipulation.

I used pixel values to represent the stored data in the images.

so the program would load the image into a picturebox then
decrypt the data from the image and then display the data
within a separate picturebox along with the original image
loaded into it.

and this served as the users visual representation of the
title.

this made reading the data really difficult so I 80sixed it.

I notice that netflix has something similar to this these days
only the data is not embedded into the image itself.

it hovers over the image and is also really hard to read
unless you select the text and highlight it.

the benefits of the program to netflix would have been
that the images or descriptions would not need to be
downloaded every time that a user needed to view the image
and description using the program which would have saved
netflix a really large amount of bandwidth cost.

also the program had the ability to store titles in folders that represent the titles category such as drama , scifi , horror , etc or create his own category such as monday , tuesday , wednesday , thursday ... etc.

it was the inability of a user to store titles in folders
that caused me to build the program in the first place.

sifting through or trying to arrange the allowed 500 titles in you netflix list can be a real pain and the program I built did not have a limit as to the number of titles that you could store within the folders on your computer.

but the only thing I need to fix is the actual string manipulation of the URL of the title.

the URL is the only part of any netflix code that I use.

Im just waiting a few months to see if the URL's become stable
before I fix it.

I may have to add a start up routine that examines the netflix URL's and decides if an internal change to the program is needed and then makes the needed change to the program before the program tries to utilize the netflix data.

oh nooo I only use the microsoft help files when I need to
find a way to do something in VB.

ROLF

why would anyone want to spend only a few minutes looking in
the forums for needed programming information when they could
spend all day or even weeks reading the microsoft help files
before they find that they will most likely need to look in
the forums to actually find the needed information.

why fix your own lawnmower when it breaks down when theres a
guy at the repair shop who will keep it a whole month before he releases it.

if you fix it yourself , then you have to cut the grass that month.


_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

Top
#56066 - 06/16/16 01:24 PM Re: special relativity time dilation formula is false [Re: paul]
Bill Offline
Megastar

Registered: 12/31/10
Posts: 1858
Loc: Oklahoma, USA
Originally Posted By: Paul
why would anyone want to spend only a few minutes looking in
the forums for needed programming information when they could
spend all day or even weeks reading the microsoft help files
before they find that they will most likely need to look in
the forums to actually find the needed information.

Everything you could possibly need is in the Microsoft help files. Of course finding it is shall we say 'difficult?' Just finding the information on a key word can get to be frustrating. All you have to do is to high light the word and press F1. And it will give you information on everything that that word could possibly refer to. That's why I keep pointers to the the help forums.

Bill Gill
_________________________
C is not the speed of light in a vacuum.
C is the universal speed limit.

Top
#56070 - 06/17/16 12:06 AM Re: special relativity time dilation formula is false [Re: Bill]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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