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#55989  06/04/16 08:46 PM
Light and time  again.

Megastar
Registered: 08/20/10
Posts: 3570
Loc: Essex, UK

Sascha Vongehr says: http://www.science20.com/alpha_meme/fundamental_nature_light75861In fact, we would experience about one second of travel time between earth and moon, if we moved with a velocity v that equals light velocity divided by the square root of two: v=c/√2. At 90% light velocity, i.e. at v=9c/10, our travel time will be only a third of a second! At 99.9% of the speed of light, the travel time we would experience has reduced to a thirtieth of a second, or 33.3 milliseconds. The math looks fairly simple, but I think I must have become lost somewhere in trying to use it. I'd be grateful is someone could defog me; idiot level, please.
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#55992  06/05/16 01:03 PM
Re: Light and time  again.
[Re: Bill S.]

Megastar
Registered: 05/20/11
Posts: 2819
Loc: Currently Illinois, USA

Dilated time = Proper Time * sqrt(1  (v*v)/ (c*c));
v = your velocity c = speed of light
Run the calculations now.
At low speeds of v the sqrt term is basically 1 and proper time = dilated time. At speeds approaching c the sqrt term approaches zero and dilated time slows getting closer and closer to zero.
Google Lorentz Factor if you need more detail.
Edited by Orac (06/05/16 01:08 PM)
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#55993  06/05/16 05:13 PM
Re: Light and time  again.
[Re: Bill S.]

Megastar
Registered: 08/20/10
Posts: 3570
Loc: Essex, UK

Thanks, Orac. The individual bits all made sense, but I hit a mental block somewhere along the line. Recon Paul will like this? It means that if you pick the right RF you can exceed c!
Edited by Bill S. (06/05/16 05:14 PM)
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#55995  06/05/16 08:01 PM
Re: Light and time  again.
[Re: Orac]

Megastar
Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4135

so we could use this formula to find the amount of time that the atomic clocks were slowed down to on the GPS satellites... right? .000038 seconds per day. 4.39814814815e10 per second .000000000439814814815 seconds per earth second Sat v = 233.333333333 m/s (14000 km/h) c = 299 792 458 m/s Dilated time = Proper Time * sqrt(1  (v*v)/ (c*c)); v = your velocity c = speed of light Run the calculations now. dilated time = 1 second * sqrt(1(233.333333333*233.333333333)/(c*c) 1*sqr (1  (v*v)/(c*c)) c = 299792458 m/s v = 233.333333333 m/s c*c = 8.98755178736818E+16 v*v = 54444.4444442889 c*c/v*v = 1650774818092.75 1(c*c/v*v) = 1650774818091.75 sqr 1(c*c/v*v) = #NUM! I cant get the sqr of the negative number using my spreadsheets sqrt function any negative number results in an error! is there something Im doing wrong? I thought I had it at first but I guess I messed up the numbers using the online calculator , the spreadsheet wont even let me finish the calculation. I found this formula that looks like the one that you posted. this should be time dilation = time / sqrt(1  (v*v)/ (c*c)) could it be that the multiplication symbol is supposed to be a division symbol in the formula you posted like in the above image? oh and I still cant get the square root of the negative number so how do you guys get any use from these formulas?
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#55997  06/06/16 11:41 AM
Re: Light and time  again.
[Re: paul]

Megastar
Registered: 05/20/11
Posts: 2819
Loc: Currently Illinois, USA

Paul I know you aren't good with maths but look again at the formula as written and TAKE SPECIAL CARE WITH THE BRACKETS The square root also seems to have become a square. Hint: the bit inside the square root can only be between 0 and 1. SO ARE WE CLEAR YOU CAN'T POSSIBLY GET A SQUARE ROOT OF A NEGATIVE .. FIX YOUR ERROR PLEASE AND STOP WASTING OUR TIME In your maths above this is total fail. c*c/v*v = 1650774818092.75 PAUL => exactly how did c get up the top and put the dam brackets in ... the multiplies must be done before the division you can't just decide to drop them .. THEY WERE THERE FOR THE REASON TO PROVIDE ORDER. This is the formula again ... v on top and multiplies before divide. Dilated time = Proper Time * sqrt(1  (v*v)/ (c*c)); (233.333333333*233.333333333)/ (299792458*299792458)= 3.669647337650543E25 Its a really really small number 0.000000000000000000000000366669 (if I typed 24 zeros correctly) Now do the rest of the maths from there and try to not make a mistake. Hint the answer in the sqrt is pretty much 1, its going to be 0.9999999999 or something like that. This goes back to the bit the ONLY ANSWERS POSSIBLE LIE IN THE RANGE (0.0 ... 1.0) On your image you posted move the square denominator to the other side of the equal sign I assume your basic maths schooling stretched to at least that?
Edited by Orac (06/06/16 01:01 PM)
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#55999  06/06/16 07:03 PM
Re: Light and time  again.
[Re: Orac]

Megastar
Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4135

Im trying to help you out here orac!
your math is wrong.
using your math Im not getting the amount of time dilation of .000038 seconds per day.
Im getting 0.999........... seconds per second!!! and 86399.9999.... seconds per day!!!!
heres the spreadshee t data. Dilated time = Proper Time * sqrt(1  (v*v)/ (c*c)) proper time seconds 1 v 233.333333333 c 299792458 v*v 54444.444444288892555050551891326904 c*c 89875517873681760.000000000000000000000000000000 v2/c2 0.000000000000605776141627461581 1(v2/c2) 0.999999999999394262317764514592 sqr (1v2/c2) 0.999999999999697131158882257296 1*sqr(1v2/c2) dialted time in 1 second 0.999999999999697131158882257296 60 seconds 59.999999999981824316819256637245 60 minutes 3599.999999998909515852574259042740 24 hours 86399.999999973835656419396400451660 365 days 31535999.999990448355674743652343750000 60.000000000000000000000000000000 3600.000000000000000000000000000000 86400.000000000000000000000000000000 31536000.000000000000000000000000000000 proper time 60 x 60 x 24 x 365 31536000.000000000000000000000000000000 dilated time 31535999.999990448355674743652343750000 0.000009551644325256347656250000 the amount of time that wasnt dilated. 0.000009551644325256349350315895
Im thinking that your (*) symbol is supposed to be a (/) symbol.
no, it looks like it must be a () symbol that must be used.
dialted time in 1 second 1*sqr(1v2/c2) 0.999999999999697131158882257296 1/sqr(1v2/c2) 1.000000000000302868841117742704 1sqr(1v2/c2) 0.000000000000302868841117742704
x60x60x24= 0.000000026167867872572969645262 seconds a day
thats much closer but still a far cry from .000038 seconds a day.
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3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#56000  06/07/16 06:04 AM
Re: Light and time  again.
[Re: paul]

Megastar
Registered: 05/20/11
Posts: 2819
Loc: Currently Illinois, USA

Paul I do not wish to get in another futile discussion with you so I will give you a statement which I do not intend to explain further because I am pretty much over talking to you and your religion inspired problems you invent. The calculation above is only the time dilation because of speed (v), which is why it is smaller. It would be a real problem if it was bigger. You have the gravitation effect to add in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Error_analysis_for_the_Global_Positioning_SystemWhen combining the time dilation and gravitational frequency shift, the discrepancy is about 38 microseconds per day Im trying to help you out here orac! Thanks but your the one who needs help Paul .... It's all pretty basic and checked by pretty much everyone who can do physics. The fact you are having trouble working out the calculation and maths is not my problem ... its yours The second calculation is on the linked page with full working (you can't mess it up this time) so please don't bother asking me for it. Paul it strikes me you acknowledge there is a 38 microseconds per day change built into the GPS system, so your Paul GOD Physics must have a calculation for this .. right? If you aren't prepared to show the alternative calculation then this is the most stupid of arguments .... It goes ... you agree with the number but don't accept the only calculation that anyone knows that predicts it. I have some ideas involving GOD and backsides if you need help .. just joking We are done ... another stupid Conversation terminated.
Edited by Orac (06/07/16 08:39 AM)
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#56001  06/07/16 11:32 AM
Re: Light and time  again.
[Re: Orac]

Megastar
Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4135

I have seen the number .000038 for the time dilation. but that does not mean that I agree with it , just because 50 billion other nut cases like yourself who believe in the einstein BS have calculated it (obviously unlike yourself).
your formula is trash and it causes a great amount of proposed time dilation.
you were wrong , the image I posted was wrong , it seems that you nut cases dont even bother with ever performing any calculations you simply make an uneducated guess and you rant about religion alot as a means of showing your self proclaimed intelligence to non nut cases.
yes your formula is wrong.
but you wont admit it because you cant figure it out.
I seriously hope that you are not actually a teacher in any school or preschool ...
I would love to see your version of the calculation of the gravitational effect however.
but I will read about it and hopefully there will be a correct formula to find the amount of proposed time dilation to add to the number from the formula that I repaired.
the one that does not show that .999 seconds become dilated every single second , the one that you posted.
the incorrect one ... of course ... as usual ... and you claiming that you are smart all the time and that you are not a layman carries no more weight than a puff of smelly gas erupting out of your dumb ass.
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3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#56002  06/07/16 12:52 PM
Re: Light and time  again.
[Re: paul]

Megastar
Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4135

I noticed I had the sat v wrong its 3874 m/s not 233 m/s like I used in my rendition of your formula. and here is the formula to determine the GR effects in case you ever need it orac. https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/media/math/render/svg/8beee43844ba74c4d77d857469c47ed0579bedec I will redo the calculation using the 3874 m/s velocity but I wont use either of our renditions of the formula. I will also use 299792458 m/s for c since we are dealing with tiny fractions of a second and using 2.998 x 10^8 might would render a pseudo amount of time or time dilation. c the speed of light or 299792458 m/s is measured in meters ... a meter can be considered an extremely long distance when calculating tiny fractions of a second. if I am traveling to a galaxy that is 1 meter away from the earth and I am traveling at a velocity of .000038 m/24h it would take 26,315.789 days or 72.09 years to travel that vast forbidding 1 meter distance to that galaxy. wouldnt it be funny if what the nut cases think is the effects of special relativity that is causing the proposed time dilation is nothing more than the reality of the true speed of light making itself known. the speed that not only shows the meters but also includes the centimeters and millimeters in the true speed of light. these tiny fractions of missing or unknown information may very well be what causes the amounts of proposed dilated time that causes us them to think that time is being dilated.
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3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#56004  06/07/16 09:50 PM
Re: Light and time  again.
[Re: Bill S.]

Megastar
Registered: 08/20/10
Posts: 3570
Loc: Essex, UK

Returning, if we may, to the link in the OP; I would appreciate some clarification on the following point (for a start). If we try to locate an electron inside an atom, once we succeed to localize the electron in a small, classically meaningful location, it does already, by the very fact alone of it being classically meaningful as an individual particle, not belong to the atom any more.
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#56005  06/07/16 10:28 PM
Re: Light and time  again.
[Re: Bill S.]

Megastar
Registered: 08/20/10
Posts: 3570
Loc: Essex, UK

Paul, there may be something here that could help with your problem with the need to involve time in the measurements. http://www.trimble.com/gps_tutorial/howgpsmeasuring.aspx For example: Distance to a satellite is determined by measuring how long a radio signal takes to reach us from that satellite. It's probably a bit off topic; is it worth a thread of its own?
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#56006  06/08/16 05:13 AM
Re: Light and time  again.
[Re: Bill S.]

Megastar
Registered: 05/20/11
Posts: 2819
Loc: Currently Illinois, USA

LOL even on ignore .. I get not 1 but 2 post walls directed to me. Paul go for the childrens drawings that is the next step and I really like them green Returning, if we may, to the link in the OP; I would appreciate some clarification on the following point (for a start). If we try to locate an electron inside an atom, once we succeed to localize the electron in a small, classically meaningful location, it does already, by the very fact alone of it being classically meaningful as an individual particle, not belong to the atom any more. Ok lets make this layman friendly, look around your room from your chair you are stationary, and the local earth outside your dwelling looks flat. There is a complete fracture between your reality and you are moving in a spin, a spiral and hurtling thru space on a sphere ball which is in no way flat. Now read the statement SV has given with that statement it's the exact same thing. Once you collapse your view to a local level you totally lose the ability to measure or even observe the bigger picture. So lets put this in it's blunt science form, there is no local measurement you can use to determine (from your seated position right now) what your actual space movements are because there is no absolute space and there is no absolute measurement to do it. Any reference frame is only useful to things you can actually measure directly from it and the measurement is only valid to that frame.So if I take a local reference frame, like your chair seat or an electron in an atom, well from that frame there is very limited things I can actually directly measure and my observations often don't look anything like the larger reality. Basically all Sascha is dealing with is if you take a reference down to an electron in an atom please don't be stupid enough to think you can measure things out to the atom. If you can do that then build me the Marosz device that can measure your exact motions of you and your chair you are currently sitting in. See if you look at Marosz posts that is exactly what he keeps claiming he can do. For all his faults Marosz actually is completely logical he just denies all the experimental evidence that shows he is totally wrong. So what I am guessing Sascha is telling you is care with reference frames and making sure what you are claiming can actually be measured from the frame you are using. This will get especially tricky in QM where you have entanglement in those reference frames. That is a whole other complication I have deliberately avoided discussing with you, as you still sort of struggle with entanglement (at least it appears that way to me).
Edited by Orac (06/08/16 05:49 AM)
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#56007  06/08/16 03:08 PM
Re: Light and time  again.
[Re: Bill S.]

Megastar
Registered: 08/20/10
Posts: 3570
Loc: Essex, UK

Thanks Orac. I must say you found a lot more in Sascha's words than I did. On reflection, I reached something more like this.
As I see it, what he is saying is that in order to localize a bound electron, the energy imparted by the action of observation/measurement would change the electron’s wavefunction so drastically that it (the electron) would no longer be in a bound state.
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#56008  06/09/16 03:55 AM
Re: Light and time  again.
[Re: Bill S.]

Megastar
Registered: 05/20/11
Posts: 2819
Loc: Currently Illinois, USA

Hmmm if you are going to that point. Then you would also have to say it would collapse any other states. This is that photon collapse thing again, before the localizing measurement you can conceptually imagine an "expanding sphere" but once you localize the photon the sphere disappears. You are basically going to have the exact same thing in your case as you localize the electron in the atom. This is the hard part people struggle with they want to make the atom discrete (something like a planet model) and unchanging like we see the world. The problem is the same as you the chair and the universe, at this micro level the universe is a lot different to what we see. Probably the best way to describe it is the atom is actually oscillating between various states as it fights for stability. So if you collapse and measure the electron you can't tell anything about the vibrating states because you just stopped it ... you had the same problem with the single photon wave remember. At a quantum level the fields seem able to "explore" (not sure what other word to use here) the options open to it as the fields don't seem to have the property of exact localization to our world until measured, your photon sphere wave was illustration of that. So that gives you the properties of superposition/entanglement that really defines QM. You sort of see that most when you look at Quantum walking http://phys.org/news/201203pulsesquantum.htmlIf you read the article you may sort of get the feel for how that is working which is why, when you apply classical physics to the experiment it makes no sense.
Edited by Orac (06/09/16 04:03 AM)
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