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by paul
12/07/19 03:58 AM
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#55945 - 05/30/16 03:10 PM why neanderthals built the structures in the caves
paul Offline
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http://www.nature.com/news/neanderthals-...NEWS_1508_RHBox

Im going to say that they used the structures to store
heat.

and of course to cook food on.

1) the stalagmite would hold heat even after the fire had
gone out.

2) the heat would cause air circulation bringing in fresh air
into the cave even while they slept.

3) they could grow some plants inside the cave that would not grow outside in the cold because of the bitter night time cold outside.

4) they may have even had animals and used the structures
as a fence to keep them away from the plants they were growing.

5) the heat flowing outside would cause the cold moist air
to condense onto the sides of the cave and this would bring in fresh water to the cave dwellers and livestock and plants.

6) the plants would remove co2 from the air as co2 is a low
lying gas.



heres the conditions they were living in.




they were in the middle of a glacial period and it was getting even colder 175,000 years ago.

the inside of the cave would be much warmer than the outside
due to the ground temperature of the earth itself deep inside
the cave.

they probably wont find any human bones within smell distance
of the area because it would get really funky down there if they didnt carry their dead away from their living and dining area.

I would even go as far as to expect that their ancestors
themselves had lived there for 30-40 thousand years and
their children and grandchildren and 1160 future generations
lived there because it would be another 40 thousand years
before the next interglacial warm period happened.








_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#55946 - 05/30/16 05:43 PM Re: why neanderthals built the structures in the caves [Re: paul]
Bill Offline
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Registered: 12/31/10
Posts: 1858
Loc: Oklahoma, USA
Originally Posted By: Paul

Im going to say that they used the structures to store
heat.

and of course to cook food on.

Well, the first problem there is that it doesn't seem to have been a living area. They didn't find a lot of charcoal, which would have been abundant if they were using it for heating and cooking. They didn't find a lot of kitchen waste, which is abundant in the campsites of primitive humans, both modern and Neanderthal.

Also the circles are rather large for fire pits. 6.7 meters (22 feet) would require huge amounts of fuel.

And then, why would they need heat that deep in a cave. Caves are noted for maintaining a constant temperature. Neanderthals did wear clothing and if it was a little cool they could just put on another layer.

They are also rather deep in the cave. They are "about a third of a kilometer" (1000 feet) into the cave. Primitive cave dwellers didn't typically live deep in caves. They lived near the entrances so that they could get in and out. A thousand feet is a long way to carry the groceries in the dark. They of course didn't have electric lights to light the way.

And of course all of your other suggestions are really off the wall.

Bill Gill
_________________________
C is not the speed of light in a vacuum.
C is the universal speed limit.

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#55950 - 05/31/16 12:21 AM Re: why neanderthals built the structures in the caves [Re: Bill]
paul Offline
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Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
the article didnt state how deep down the site was it only said
that the site was 300 meters into the cave.

heat from the earth gets higher the further down you go
not the further in you go.

it would still be warmer than the outside though.

the pictures and video clearly show several piles of
stacked up stalagmites in the middle of the large
area you noted as 22 ft , I certainly was not suggesting that
they had filled the entire area with fire as you have suggested
these two piles of stalagmites may have served as bases to
support a couple of tall stalagmites to support a large
stiched together animal skin tent.

Im not sure why you would think that they would venture into
the cave in the dark they did have fire so a torch would light
there way in and out of the cave pretty well.

charlcoal would not be abundant if they were using the burnt wood
charlcoal as fertilizer for plants.

they would have powdered the charlcoal to put into the soil.

all sorts of animals build nest , homes , even ants are
farmers and keep heards of other insects.

why couldnt the neanderthals?

were they dumber than almost all other lifeforms underneath
them in the food chain?

_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#55952 - 05/31/16 02:33 AM Re: why neanderthals built the structures in the caves [Re: paul]
Bill Offline
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Registered: 12/31/10
Posts: 1858
Loc: Oklahoma, USA
Originally Posted By: Paul
were they dumber than almost all other lifeforms underneath
them in the food chain?

No, they just had a completely different life style.

And all of your ideas fall apart because there is no debris from a living site in there.

Bill Gill
_________________________
C is not the speed of light in a vacuum.
C is the universal speed limit.

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#55956 - 05/31/16 11:30 AM Re: why neanderthals built the structures in the caves [Re: Bill]
paul Offline
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Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
well maybe they were really good housekeepers.

its obvious that this site shows several structures that
date to apx 175,000 years ago.

and people living in a cave during a glacial period might pay
more attention to their living quarters because they like it.

and there may have been rules set up withing their local
governing body that required the people to keep the place
clean , after all they had already been living in there
for a thousand or so generations.

they may have noticed after the first generation that they
would have to keep the place clean or the smell of the rotting
debri would make life unbearable and that the debri would pile
up forcing them out of their living quarters.

there is also the possibility that water may have washed the area
clean of debri as the ice melted.

just because the archaeologist supposedly havent found any
debri doesnt mean that the people who constructed the structures
didnt live there.

these people would not have wasted any debri that they may have
had , they probably would have eaten every part of any animal
that they killed for food or used the unedible parts to make
tools or jewelry with.

they couldnt afford to be a pessimistic group of people sitting around chanting woe is me , they had a really hard and rough life
in front of them.

they had to keep busy and that is why there is no debri would
be my guess.

I think they did a very good job of constructing the home and
animal corrals and hearths and keeping the place clean.

its odd to me that the archaeologist always want to make the
neanderthals look as if they were real dumb asses , I would
like to see them do any better in a 90,000 year glacial period.

they might last a few weeks before they died of starvation.

if they were really smart.
_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#55959 - 05/31/16 01:19 PM Re: why neanderthals built the structures in the caves [Re: paul]
Bill Offline
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Registered: 12/31/10
Posts: 1858
Loc: Oklahoma, USA
There is ZERO sign of debris. One sign of human habitation that archaeologists look for is debris. Thee would at least be stone tools, and chips remaining from the manufacture of stone tools.

Bill Gill
_________________________
C is not the speed of light in a vacuum.
C is the universal speed limit.

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#55960 - 05/31/16 01:31 PM Re: why neanderthals built the structures in the caves [Re: Bill]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
there would also be evidence of the construction debri
and that ZERO debri says that the structures really arent
there.

also: the stalagmites look as if they themselves would
make really good tools.

for breaking other stalagmites.

for punching holes in animal skins

they are really sharp and come in all sizes

they may even be used as spear tips.

making use of what you have seems to be the better idea
why spend days trying to chip away at stones to make tools
when your home grows homegrown tools for you.






_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#55963 - 05/31/16 06:37 PM Re: why neanderthals built the structures in the caves [Re: paul]
Bill Offline
Megastar

Registered: 12/31/10
Posts: 1858
Loc: Oklahoma, USA
Originally Posted By: paul
why spend days trying to chip away at stones to make tools
when your home grows homegrown tools for you.

Did you ever try to cut up a good haunch of mastodon using a piece of limestone? That is basically what cave formations are made of. And as far as that goes there was a powerful tradition for Neanderthals to carry good tool making material for long distances. Even Homo Hablis, 2 to 2 1/2 million years ago carried good stone with them. The source for the stone they used in making their Oldowon tools was often over a mile from the place they created them.



Notice that these are not limestone. They are plenty good enough to butcher large animals. Experiments have shown that they are quite capable of butchering an elephant.

By the time of the Neanderthals tool making had made great strides. One of the marks of a Neanderthal site is the presence of Mousterian tools.


Notice they are much more sophisticated. The Oldowan tools are basically broken rocks. The Mousterian tools are highly worked to provide much better edges. And they aren't made of limestone.

Bill Gill
_________________________
C is not the speed of light in a vacuum.
C is the universal speed limit.

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#55965 - 05/31/16 10:15 PM Re: why neanderthals built the structures in the caves [Re: Bill]
paul Offline
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Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
Quote:
Did you ever try to cut up a good haunch of mastodon using a piece of limestone?


the site doesnt look as if it had very many people living there.
I dont think that a few people would attempt to kill a mastodon
they probably mostly hunted or trapped smaller animals.

or raised smaller animals for food.

and no I havent.

I would like to see a more detailed article that included the
location of the find and the depth of the cave.

alot can be derived from more details.

and were not sure that these people were in fact neanderthals
they may have been part of an earlier group of explorers from the African continent that became cut off from their way out of France as the ice age and the ice advanced.

just because the archaeologist have never found this type of
site before and it doesnt fit into their predefined set of rules
that govern who and where and when people used to travel
certainly does not mean that people could not have traveled
to areas that they chose to travel to or when they could
choose to travel to those ares because the archaeologist
were not there to tell them that they couldnt go.

they also were not there to tell them what they could build
or eat or wear or which tools they could use or when and
where they could take a crap or scratch their ass.

and facebook was not around to record it.

_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#55968 - 06/01/16 03:00 AM Re: why neanderthals built the structures in the caves [Re: paul]
Bill Offline
Megastar

Registered: 12/31/10
Posts: 1858
Loc: Oklahoma, USA
That site doesn't look like anybody lived there. Neanderthals were not neat housekeepers. The traditional places where Neanderthals were found had stuff scattered all around.

The Neanderthals were good hunters, there is a lot of evidence that they hunted big game. They probably caught smaller game when it was available, but a rabbit doesn't feed a family nearly as long as a mammoth (sorry, I said mastodon, I meant mammoth). Also they wouldn't be as much available during winter, or a glacial period.

As far as the depth of the cave is concerned, that is not really germane. They were found about 1000 feet into the cave. That is the main thing, how deep it is doesn't really count. The distance from the entrance is what counts.

I notice in the link you provided that some people are considering that the 'structures' might be naturally occurring. The reason there is some doubt is that when you find something that doesn't match any previous finds there is always a lot of doubt. And there is a lot known about the Neanderthals. They are about the best studied early humans around. Well, there remains are around.

As far as travelers from Africa, that wouldn't matter, because at that time Africans were at about the same stage of development as the Neanderthals. The first remains that are considered to be those of undoubted modern humans are from around 100,000 years ago.

Bill Gill
_________________________
C is not the speed of light in a vacuum.
C is the universal speed limit.

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#55970 - 06/01/16 12:31 PM Re: why neanderthals built the structures in the caves [Re: Bill]
paul Offline
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Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
if the cave entrance and the passage to the structures
and the area where the structures are located share apx
the same elevation then the entire cave would be exposed
to the same temperature as the cave entrance.

I would think that the people who lived in the cave would
have began living in the cave apx 200,000 years ago.

as the ice age set in.



and they would have moved on as the ice age and glaciers retreated
apx 140,000 years ago.

that would give them 60,000 years or 2000 generations to
adapt to their environment , this time line fits into what
you said about the first modern human find being apx 100,000 years old.

what may have happened is that these people might have been
early human not neanderthal as they left Africa and developed
parallel with modern humans in Africa.

it certainly would explain the fair skin of the europeans much
better.

because life in a cave spread over 2000 generations of
little sunlight would definitely cause skin pigment to
lighten in color.

also I have now seen the entrance and passageways leading into
the site and a really large neanderthal would have a hard time
getting into the cave.

so they were most likely a group of early modern human explorers.

Quote:
As far as travelers from Africa, that wouldn't matter, because at that time Africans were at about the same stage of development as the Neanderthals. The first remains that are considered to be those of undoubted modern humans are from around 100,000 years ago.






_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#55971 - 06/01/16 12:50 PM Re: why neanderthals built the structures in the caves [Re: paul]
Bill Offline
Megastar

Registered: 12/31/10
Posts: 1858
Loc: Oklahoma, USA
Let's back off here and approach this a little differently. What was it that gave you the idea that the cave was a living area?

Bill Gill
_________________________
C is not the speed of light in a vacuum.
C is the universal speed limit.

Top
#55973 - 06/01/16 11:48 PM Re: why neanderthals built the structures in the caves [Re: Bill]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
mainly the age of the structures and the location.

I would certainly find a nice warm cave to live in if
I was there in that time.
_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#55977 - 06/02/16 01:26 PM Re: why neanderthals built the structures in the caves [Re: paul]
Bill Offline
Megastar

Registered: 12/31/10
Posts: 1858
Loc: Oklahoma, USA
Originally Posted By: paul
mainly the age of the structures and the location.

I would certainly find a nice warm cave to live in if
I was there in that time.


But most Neanderthal sites are in the mouths of caves, not 1000 feet into them. Even modern human sites are the same. "Cave Men" didn't actually live deep in caves. They wanted easy access to the outside. Actually most were probably open air. It is just that caves provide better chances for the traces to survive. The best indication we have is that the Neanderthals were hunter-gatherers, so they would move relatively frequently. Most living sites were temporary right up until we invented farming. This was necessary because a given area would be hunted/gathered out in pretty short order. There were places that people returned to on a fairly regular basis.

Cave art was not created in living areas. The notable cave art that we have found in many caves deep in the earth were in special places, not living spaces. It seems to me that this site is more of a cave art site than anything else.

Also of course early humans were erecting temporary shelters by 300,000 years ago. It is assumed, since there is no evidence otherwise, that they were temporary.

Bill Gill
_________________________
C is not the speed of light in a vacuum.
C is the universal speed limit.

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#55979 - 06/02/16 02:00 PM Re: why neanderthals built the structures in the caves [Re: Bill]
paul Offline
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Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
heres a longer video that shows the location of the cave
and the narrow crawling spaces that lead to the site.

I didnt see any art work in the video.

as for living in the mouth of the cave when there is
a place inside that is much warmer doesnt make any sense
to me.

since these people didnt leave any traces that would class
them as being either neanderthal or modern human maybe they should remain unclassified for now.




I just has another thought this morning ...

the marks on the walls look as if they were scraping clay from
the walls possibly to construct small ponds by filling in the
gaps of the stalagmite to make the circles watertight.

either to capture drinking water or to raise fish.

the cave was located beside a river that would have dried
up as the glaciers grew in size and they may have noticed
this drying and wanted to preserve their food supplies.

_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#55981 - 06/02/16 06:33 PM Re: why neanderthals built the structures in the caves [Re: paul]
Bill Offline
Megastar

Registered: 12/31/10
Posts: 1858
Loc: Oklahoma, USA
Well, I watched the video. And there I see another reason why this wouldn't be a living area. Personally I like to have a door big enough to carry the groceries in. What would your wife say if you asked her to live in a house with only one dog door sized opening to get in and out. For a large dog, but still a dog door.

Now one thing I can see. That is kids. Kids will go all kinds of crazy places and do all kinds of crazy things when they get bored.

Bill Gill
_________________________
C is not the speed of light in a vacuum.
C is the universal speed limit.

Top
#55982 - 06/02/16 09:42 PM Re: why neanderthals built the structures in the caves [Re: Bill]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
I know , thats why I said that they wouldnt have been neanderthals because neanderthals were big bodied people
and the crawl spaces are really small.

their kids might have done this as you say but modern kids
have been ruled out because of the formation of stalagmites
on the stacked stalagmites on the floor of the living area.

even so , if I lived back then with other groups of people



trying to find a place to warm up and people to kill for
their next meal and saber toothed tigers and such I think this place would be an idea place from a security standpoint alone.

even if it took a few extra minutes to get in or out.

and by shoving a few of the stalagmites into one of the crawl spaces you could pretty much be guaranteed a safe, warm
and cozy nights sleep.



you know the next ice age is just around the corner so just
in case any of the readers would like to get a head start on
the required fashions and matching accessories heres a link
to the idea shop to find your cave family outfits.


http://www.ancientcraft.co.uk/Projects/caveman_clothes/caveman_clothes.html
_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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