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What is a second? That’s an easy one; a second is defined as 9 192 631 770 oscillations of a caesium 133 atom.
That’s all settled, then; or is it?
Does a second have any independent existence, or is it just something that has emerged from arbitrary divisions of years and days?
Compare, for example, a second and a proton. It seems quite reasonable to assume that a proton has an existence that is independent of our measurements. It is probably safe to assume that the diameter of a proton would be about 1.7536 femtometres, whether or not we ever measured, or even thought about it.
Can we say the same for a second? Would a second exist as anything in its own right if it had never been defined? If not, does that tell us anything about the “reality” of time? One thing we know about the second is that it is the SI base unit for the measurement of time. So, for example, if the base unit of time has no independent existence, can time be said to have independent existence?
There never was nothing.
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You aren't being very consistent your proton which you are happy to say exists can only be defined by a wave. I assume you aren't going to try and cling to the classical rubbish. So if your proton can only be described by a wave then time must exist for the wave to exist (wave = movement in time BY DEFINITION). Same logic as you applied to the proton it doesn't matter whether you measured it or not, it has to exist to the same level the proton does. So either both exist or neither exist and that is reality .... QED. Given release of direct detection of gravity waves today we can even say that anywhere gravity exists then time must exist ... GR demands it !! So this idea is now up against GR and QM which both say no For science time exists from the moment of the big bang, it isn't up for conjecture to laymen. Personally I find the whole idea of playing with the concept naive and foolish. A related question would be does the universe exist if Bill S wasn't born, how would he know.
Last edited by Orac; 02/11/16 05:51 PM.
I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.
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Would a second exist as anything in its own right if it had never been defined? would a kilogram exist as anything in its own right if it had never been defined? would a meter exist as anything in its own right if it had never been defined? would speed exist as anything in its own right if it had never been defined? would temperature exist as anything in its own right if it had never been defined? measurements are simply measurements and that is all that they are , you cannot manipulate a measurement because it has no physical properties. so my logical layman answer is NO.
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.
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So either both exist or neither exist and that is reality that's pure uncredible BS orac. photons will continue to exist even after all men have gone and taken their measurements with them. your stupid brand of science is becoming more than just plain stupid its bordering on idiocy.
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.
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Given release of direct detection of gravity waves today we can even say that anywhere gravity exists then time must exist ... GR demands it !!
time does not exist anywhere , theres simply no such THING as time , time is only a measurement. GR is most likely and most uncredibly demanding more illusions to support some previous illusions , so I and we can now and always have said that GR itself is an illusion.
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.
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You aren't being very consistent your proton which you are happy to say exists can only be defined by a wave. I am never happy to say that anything exists. If I make such a statement you can generally assume that it is “shorthand” for something like “We detect what we interpret as its physical existence”. So if your proton can only be described by a wave then time must exist for the wave to exist As you say: it can only be described by a wave. This does not guarantee that it is a wave. My understanding is that quantum objects are neither particles nor waves. (wave = movement in time BY DEFINITION). Even disregarding any doubt that the proton might actually be a wave; all this establishes is that change takes place; time might only be the tool we use to make sense of what we call change.
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all this establishes is that change takes place Think very very very very very very very carefully about what you just said. Hint: try to define time Is it possible for anything to change without time? Response: We have a state (A) of an item, and it evolves to a new state (B). For science the evolution of A=>B is called time. If no time exists you will never observe the evolution. Does that help with your statement above? A state can be captured easily in an image, a time evolution takes a minimum of two images (AKA measurements) ... lets show you State A: State B:
Last edited by Orac; 02/15/16 06:54 AM.
I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.
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I will as soon as you define. temperature speed distance does temperature exist as anything other than a measurement ? does speed exist as anything other than a measurement ? does distance exist as anything other than a measurement? now define time as anything other than a measurement. Is it possible for anything to change without time? time does not exist. you should have said Is it possible for anything to change without the passage of a measurement of time? you and your version of science wants time to exist as more than just a measurement in order to pacify some previous or future illusion , that cant happen except inside of an illusion.
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.
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does temperature exist as anything other than a measurement ? does speed exist as anything other than a measurement ? does distance exist as anything other than a measurement?
now define time as anything other than a measurement.
So time is the same as temperature, speed and distance just a measurement? Do that and you will score an own goal, again Paul Well if time doesn't exist then nor does temperature, speed and distance if they are just measurements ... see your comment above. You found the hole, I was trying to make Bill S see you and your version of science wants time to exist as more than just a measurement in order to pacify some previous or future illusion , that cant happen except inside of an illusion No I am really happy to have time just as a measurement. See you need concentrate on the argument not just disagree with me. However I think you better go back and make temperature, speed and distance something more than just a measurement to save your classical world Lets show why you need to save it:Paul, can I ask does the Moon exist if you aren't measuring it?
Last edited by Orac; 02/15/16 06:20 PM.
I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.
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Is it possible for anything to change without the passage of a measurement of time? I'm maintaining my position on the fence, here, so I can take a shot at either side, for the purpose of learning, of course.:) "... a measurement of time" implies that time is something that can be measured. Is that what you meant to say?
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We have a state (A) of an item, and it evolves to a new state (B). For science the evolution of A=>B is called time. If no time exists you will never observe the evolution Surely the evolution A -> B is called change; time is what we use to make sense of our observation of change. In our 3+1D Universe change is essential, therefore we have to have time in order to give it meaning. Does that mean that time exists outside the realm of change? Thought is a "real" thing, but would it exist without a thinker? BTW, Orac, that's not you in the top pic, is it?
Last edited by Bill S.; 02/15/16 06:52 PM.
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Well if time doesn't exist then nor does temperature, speed and distance if they are just measurements ... see your comment above.
time , temperature , speed and distance do not exist. they never have existed , they never will exist. they are only measurements.
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.
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Is it possible for anything to change without the passage of a measurement of time? suppose you wanted to measure the thickness of a wooden board with a measuring stick , you could not even reach out to pick up the measuring stick unless a measurement of time passes. the wooden board exist , the measurement stick exist you exist , but if you could measure the thickness of the wooden board the measurement would not exist. "... a measurement of time" implies that time is something that can be measured. Is that what you meant to say? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MeasurementMeasurement is the assignment of a number to a characteristic of an object or event, which can be compared with other objects or events for instance a 1 ounce gold bar has a measurement of 1 ounce troy weight. the gold exist , the 1 oz is simply a measurement of the amount of gold in the gold bar , the measurement does not exist. Is it possible for anything to change without the passage of a measurement of time?
what Im saying is that nothing can move without the passage of time and time cannot be manipulated it does not exist it has no physical properties that can be adjusted. it just passes. it never slows down. it never speeds up. it never stops. it cant because it does not exist.
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.
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"... a measurement of time" implies that time is something that can be measured. Is that what you meant to say? Bingo and Paul took that stance by calling it a measurement. The problem for him is you have to give other properties to his other quantities so they persist when you aren't measuring .. so they become more than just a measurement. I see he has responded but I haven't read if he has worked that out yet.
I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.
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Surely the evolution A -> B is called change; time is what we use to make sense of our observation of change. Agree In our 3+1D Universe change is essential, therefore we have to have time in order to give it meaning. Woot and there we have it ... your universe is defined by change Does that mean that time exists outside the realm of change? Now you got the next part of the extension, there is no way to tackle that is there because of the way we defined time. Thought is a "real" thing, but would it exist without a thinker? Now you have indeed worked the connection, so the question you are really asking is does time exist without our universe which is defined by change. To take time outside the universe I need to redefine it in a non our universe way. So it is like trying to define thinking without relating it to a thinker. Want to have a crack at doing it? BTW, Orac, that's not you in the top pic, is it? LOL so mean.
Last edited by Orac; 02/16/16 02:13 AM.
I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.
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time , temperature , speed and distance do not exist.
they never have existed , they never will exist.
they are only measurements. Paul you said you don't believe in QM So the moon doesn't exist except when you look at it !! Welcome to the darkside my new little QM convert. I can't believe you walked into that head first and yes I am the devil. However to be fair to me, you joined the conversation and walked yourself into a hole I didn't do anything. I bet you want to revise some of your answers now my little QM believer I really am not a mean person so lets give you a hint, the usual way out in classical physics is to add some sort of persistence to measurement so it exists as some "property". So your quantities velocity, temp etc need to exist as more than just a measurement. So classical physics does that to all the properties except time. Why not time, well I will leave you to think about that.
Last edited by Orac; 02/16/16 02:54 AM.
I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.
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it just passes......
....it does not exist. How can something that doesn't exist do any passing, or anything else?
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Woot and there we have it ... your universe is defined by change That I have never denied.
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How can something that doesn't exist do any passing, or anything else? Bad boy I wanted Paul to work that out ... I knew you would get it. The downside of framing two answers in one post
Last edited by Orac; 02/16/16 03:16 AM.
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"Does a second have any independent existence, or is it just something that has emerged from arbitrary divisions of years and days?"
A second is a measurement of time, a unit defined by us. Time (perhaps a tool we use to make sense of what we term change) exists. Unless you’re a photon moving at c, as I understand they experience no passing of time.
Since we exist in space-time, the faster we move in space the slower we move in time (time dilation).
Time is measured in its own frame of reference, so if you have two observers in different FOR they will not measure a time interval the same.
Photons travel at c in all FOR no matter how fast we are moving.
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