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#55406 02/11/16 12:42 PM
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Bill S. Offline OP
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What is a second? Thats an easy one; a second is defined as 9 192 631 770 oscillations of a caesium 133 atom.

Thats all settled, then; or is it?

Does a second have any independent existence, or is it just something that has emerged from arbitrary divisions of years and days?

Compare, for example, a second and a proton. It seems quite reasonable to assume that a proton has an existence that is independent of our measurements. It is probably safe to assume that the diameter of a proton would be about 1.7536 femtometres, whether or not we ever measured, or even thought about it.

Can we say the same for a second? Would a second exist as anything in its own right if it had never been defined? If not, does that tell us anything about the reality of time? One thing we know about the second is that it is the SI base unit for the measurement of time. So, for example, if the base unit of time has no independent existence, can time be said to have independent existence?


There never was nothing.
.
Bill S. #55407 02/11/16 04:22 PM
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You aren't being very consistent your proton which you are happy to say exists can only be defined by a wave. I assume you aren't going to try and cling to the classical rubbish. So if your proton can only be described by a wave then time must exist for the wave to exist (wave = movement in time BY DEFINITION).

Same logic as you applied to the proton it doesn't matter whether you measured it or not, it has to exist to the same level the proton does.

So either both exist or neither exist and that is reality .... QED.

Given release of direct detection of gravity waves today we can even say that anywhere gravity exists then time must exist ... GR demands it !!

So this idea is now up against GR and QM which both say no smile

For science time exists from the moment of the big bang, it isn't up for conjecture to laymen. Personally I find the whole idea of playing with the concept naive and foolish. A related question would be does the universe exist if Bill S wasn't born, how would he know.

Last edited by Orac; 02/11/16 05:51 PM.

I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.
Bill S. #55412 02/12/16 12:12 AM
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Quote:
Would a second exist as anything in its own right if it had never been defined?


would a kilogram exist as anything in its own right if it had never been defined?

would a meter exist as anything in its own right if it had never been defined?

would speed exist as anything in its own right if it had never been defined?

would temperature exist as anything in its own right if it had never been defined?

measurements are simply measurements and that is all that
they are , you cannot manipulate a measurement because it has no physical properties.

so my logical layman answer is NO.



3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.
Orac #55413 02/12/16 12:18 AM
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Quote:
So either both exist or neither exist and that is reality


that's pure uncredible BS orac.

photons will continue to exist even after all men have
gone and taken their measurements with them.

your stupid brand of science is becoming more than
just plain stupid its bordering on idiocy.


3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.
Orac #55414 02/12/16 12:32 AM
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Quote:
Given release of direct detection of gravity waves today we can even say that anywhere gravity exists then time must exist ... GR demands it !!


time does not exist anywhere , theres simply no such THING
as time , time is only a measurement.

GR is most likely and most uncredibly demanding more illusions to support some previous illusions , so I and we can now and always have said that GR itself is an illusion.


3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.
Bill S. #55427 02/12/16 10:41 PM
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Quote:
You aren't being very consistent your proton which you are happy to say exists can only be defined by a wave.


I am never happy to say that anything exists. If I make such a statement you can generally assume that it is shorthand for something like We detect what we interpret as its physical existence.

Quote:
So if your proton can only be described by a wave then time must exist for the wave to exist


As you say: it can only be described by a wave. This does not guarantee that it is a wave. My understanding is that quantum objects are neither particles nor waves.

Quote:
(wave = movement in time BY DEFINITION).


Even disregarding any doubt that the proton might actually be a wave; all this establishes is that change takes place; time might only be the tool we use to make sense of what we call change.


There never was nothing.
Bill S. #55447 02/15/16 02:46 AM
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Originally Posted By: Bill S.
all this establishes is that change takes place

Think very very very very very very very carefully about what you just said.

Hint: try to define time

Is it possible for anything to change without time? smile

Response:
We have a state (A) of an item, and it evolves to a new state (B). For science the evolution of A=>B is called time. If no time exists you will never observe the evolution. Does that help with your statement above?

A state can be captured easily in an image, a time evolution takes a minimum of two images (AKA measurements) ... lets show you

State A:


State B:

Last edited by Orac; 02/15/16 06:54 AM.

I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.
Orac #55455 02/15/16 01:41 PM
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Quote:
try to define time


I will as soon as you define.

temperature
speed
distance

does temperature exist as anything other than a measurement ?
does speed exist as anything other than a measurement ?
does distance exist as anything other than a measurement?

now define time as anything other than a measurement.

Quote:
Is it possible for anything to change without time?


time does not exist.

you should have said

Is it possible for anything to change without the passage
of a measurement of time?

you and your version of science wants time to exist as
more than just a measurement in order to pacify some
previous or future illusion , that cant happen except inside of an illusion.



3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.
paul #55461 02/15/16 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted By: paul

does temperature exist as anything other than a measurement ?
does speed exist as anything other than a measurement ?
does distance exist as anything other than a measurement?

now define time as anything other than a measurement.

So time is the same as temperature, speed and distance just a measurement?
Do that and you will score an own goal, again Paulsmile

Originally Posted By: paul
time does not exist.

Well if time doesn't exist then nor does temperature, speed and distance if they are just measurements ... see your comment above.

You found the hole, I was trying to make Bill S see smile

Originally Posted By: paul
you and your version of science wants time to exist as more than just a measurement in order to pacify some
previous or future illusion , that cant happen except inside of an illusion

No I am really happy to have time just as a measurement. See you need concentrate on the argument not just disagree with me.

However I think you better go back and make temperature, speed and distance something more than just a measurement to save your classical world smile

Lets show why you need to save it:
Paul, can I ask does the Moon exist if you aren't measuring it? laugh

Last edited by Orac; 02/15/16 06:20 PM.

I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.
paul #55462 02/15/16 06:38 PM
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Quote:
Is it possible for anything to change without the passage
of a measurement of time?


I'm maintaining my position on the fence, here, so I can take a shot at either side, for the purpose of learning, of course.:)

"... a measurement of time" implies that time is something that can be measured. Is that what you meant to say?


There never was nothing.
Orac #55463 02/15/16 06:51 PM
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Quote:
We have a state (A) of an item, and it evolves to a new state (B). For science the evolution of A=>B is called time. If no time exists you will never observe the evolution


Surely the evolution A -> B is called change; time is what we use to make sense of our observation of change.

In our 3+1D Universe change is essential, therefore we have to have time in order to give it meaning. Does that mean that time exists outside the realm of change? Thought is a "real" thing, but would it exist without a thinker?

BTW, Orac, that's not you in the top pic, is it? laugh

Last edited by Bill S.; 02/15/16 06:52 PM.

There never was nothing.
Orac #55469 02/15/16 11:43 PM
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Quote:
Well if time doesn't exist then nor does temperature, speed and distance if they are just measurements ... see your comment above.


time , temperature , speed and distance do not exist.

they never have existed , they never will exist.

they are only measurements.


3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.
Bill S. #55470 02/15/16 11:57 PM
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Quote:
Is it possible for anything to change without the passage
of a measurement of time?


suppose you wanted to measure the thickness of a wooden
board with a measuring stick , you could not even reach
out to pick up the measuring stick unless a measurement
of time passes.

the wooden board exist , the measurement stick exist
you exist , but if you could measure the thickness of
the wooden board the measurement would not exist.


Quote:
"... a measurement of time" implies that time is something that can be measured. Is that what you meant to say?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measurement

Quote:
Measurement is the assignment of a number to a characteristic of an object or event, which can be compared with other objects or events


for instance a 1 ounce gold bar has a measurement of
1 ounce troy weight.

the gold exist , the 1 oz is simply a measurement of the
amount of gold in the gold bar , the measurement does not exist.

Quote:
Is it possible for anything to change without the passage
of a measurement of time?


what Im saying is that nothing can move without
the passage of time and time cannot be manipulated
it does not exist it has no physical properties that
can be adjusted.

it just passes.
it never slows down.
it never speeds up.
it never stops.

it cant because it does not exist.




3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.
Bill S. #55475 02/16/16 02:02 AM
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Originally Posted By: Bill S.
"... a measurement of time" implies that time is something that can be measured. Is that what you meant to say?

Bingo and Paul took that stance by calling it a measurement.

The problem for him is you have to give other properties to his other quantities so they persist when you aren't measuring .. so they become more than just a measurement. I see he has responded but I haven't read if he has worked that out yet.


I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.
Bill S. #55476 02/16/16 02:11 AM
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Originally Posted By: Bill S.
Surely the evolution A -> B is called change; time is what we use to make sense of our observation of change.

Agree

Quote:
In our 3+1D Universe change is essential, therefore we have to have time in order to give it meaning.

Woot and there we have it ... your universe is defined by change

Quote:
Does that mean that time exists outside the realm of change?

Now you got the next part of the extension, there is no way to tackle that is there because of the way we defined time.

Quote:
Thought is a "real" thing, but would it exist without a thinker?

Now you have indeed worked the connection, so the question you are really asking is does time exist without our universe which is defined by change.

To take time outside the universe I need to redefine it in a non our universe way. So it is like trying to define thinking without relating it to a thinker. Want to have a crack at doing it?

Originally Posted By: Bill S.
BTW, Orac, that's not you in the top pic, is it? laugh

LOL so mean.

Last edited by Orac; 02/16/16 02:13 AM.

I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.
paul #55477 02/16/16 02:15 AM
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Originally Posted By: paul
time , temperature , speed and distance do not exist.

they never have existed , they never will exist.

they are only measurements.

Paul you said you don't believe in QM smile

So the moon doesn't exist except when you look at it !!

Welcome to the darkside my new little QM convert. I can't believe you walked into that head first and yes I am the devil. However to be fair to me, you joined the conversation and walked yourself into a hole I didn't do anything.

I bet you want to revise some of your answers now my little QM believer laugh

I really am not a mean person so lets give you a hint, the usual way out in classical physics is to add some sort of persistence to measurement so it exists as some "property". So your quantities velocity, temp etc need to exist as more than just a measurement. So classical physics does that to all the properties except time. Why not time, well I will leave you to think about that.

Last edited by Orac; 02/16/16 02:54 AM.

I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.
paul #55478 02/16/16 03:01 AM
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Quote:
it just passes......

....it does not exist.


How can something that doesn't exist do any passing, or anything else?


There never was nothing.
Orac #55479 02/16/16 03:04 AM
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Quote:
Woot and there we have it ... your universe is defined by change


That I have never denied.


There never was nothing.
Bill S. #55480 02/16/16 03:14 AM
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Originally Posted By: Bill S.
How can something that doesn't exist do any passing, or anything else?

Bad boy I wanted Paul to work that out ... I knew you would get it.

The downside of framing two answers in one post frown

Last edited by Orac; 02/16/16 03:16 AM.

I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.
Bill S. #55484 02/16/16 05:50 AM
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"Does a second have any independent existence, or is it just something that has emerged from arbitrary divisions of years and days?"


A second is a measurement of time, a unit defined by us.

Time (perhaps a tool we use to make sense of what we term change) exists. Unless youre a
photon moving at c, as I understand they experience no passing of time.

Since we exist in space-time, the faster we move in space the slower we move in time (time dilation).

Time is measured in its own frame of reference, so if you have two observers in different FOR they
will not measure a time interval the same.

Photons travel at c in all FOR no matter how fast we are moving.

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