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#55283 - 01/28/16 02:59 AM Re: The wheel, better than sliced bread? [Re: Bill]
Orac Offline
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Posts: 2819
Loc: Currently Illinois, USA
Bill G your answer opens up another interesting thing, do we know why they stopped building pyramids?

Just strikes me as strange they are still burying people in the same sort of area but stop building the large hills.


Edited by Orac (01/28/16 03:01 AM)
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#55284 - 01/28/16 01:14 PM Re: The wheel, better than sliced bread? [Re: Bill]
paul Offline
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Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4135
something that also has not been covered is the evidence
that the Egyptians used ropes to pull the blocks from the
quarry to the pyramids.

is there any evidence of that?

also Bill there were pyramids build after 1700 bce

Saqqara was the last major pyramid constructed during the
18th century bc

el-kurru another of the major pyramids dated 721 bc

nuri another of the major pyramids dated 664 bc

orac , what I cant understand is why they started off
so good at making pyramids during the 3rd and 4th dynasty
and then its like they lost the ability to build a decent
pyramid ever again.

like the builders left or those who were cutting and placing
the blocks left.

it seems that all of a sudden Egypt didn't have any
skilled workers to build anything that would last , the
pyramids built after the 3rd and 4th dynasty all seem to
have melted away like sticks of butter.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Egyptian_pyramids

but seriously concerning the methods of transporting the
massive blocks to the pyramids , we know now that evidence
of wheels have been found ... there should be a massive pile
of ropes found somewhere that were used to pull the blocks.

anyone know of any evidence that shows proof that ropes were
used vs the wheel.

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#55285 - 01/28/16 01:45 PM Re: The wheel has been around since 9,500 BC [Re: paul]
paul Offline
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Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4135

The wheel has been around since 9,500 BC

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheel

Quote:

9500–6500 BCE: Aceramic Neolithic
6500–4500 BCE: Ceramic Neolithic (Halafian), earliest wooden wheels (disks with a hole for the axle)
c. 4500 BCE: invention of the potter's wheel, beginning of the Chalcolithic (Ubaid period)
4500–3300 BCE: Chalcolithic, earliest wheeled vehicles, domestication of the horse
3300–2200 BCE: Early Bronze Age
2200–1550 BCE: Middle Bronze Age, invention of the spoked wheel and the chariot





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#55286 - 01/28/16 01:57 PM Re: egypt had ships --> the great pyramid [Re: paul]
paul Offline
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Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4135
ancient Egyptian ships

the below pictured ship was not just a raft built from
a few tree trunks , it is called a masterpiece of woodcraft

it was built over 4,500 years ago and it contains evidence
of an axel and the usage of a lever as shown in the
boat oars.

I would highly doubt that the ancient Egyptians did not
also have water wheeled powered grain mills and water irrigation systems in place to bring water to the farm lands
when the niles water level was low , not to mention water
power used to grind and cut stone.

this is a luxury ship that was used to travel up and down
on the nile river by the pharaoh accompanied by many other
ships that carried his armed guards , pharaohs wouldn't travel
without their security forces.

and I doubt that he would have them running along the banks
keeping up with his ship as it sailed up and down the nile.

so the Egyptians being a clever peoples would have also
traded with other peoples using barges or even larger
ships around the mediterranean area and up and down the nile
river.

lifting trade goods from a barge and placing them on a
pier would require ropes and pulleys and a pulley has a
wheel inside it.

I have got to admit that I am amazed how the archeologist
have painted the Egyptians as being really stupid people
when the ancestors of the archeologist were probably trying
to figure out where their next meal was coming from while
the ancient Egyptians already had their next meal stored away
or it was being transported to them in ships.

the ancient Egyptians were highly advanced over the rest
of the world without a doubt.

but still the jealous rest of the world maintains that
the ancient Egyptians were pretty much dumb idiots.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egyptian_solar_ships

Quote:

The Khufu ship is an intact full-size vessel from Ancient Egypt that was sealed into a pit in the Giza pyramid complex at the foot of the Great Pyramid of Giza around 2500 BC. It was thus identified as the world's oldest intact ship
and has been described as "a masterpiece of woodcraft" that could sail today if put into water.[3] The Khufu ship is one of the oldest, largest, and best-preserved vessels from antiquity.
It measures 43.6 m (143 ft) long and 5.9 m (19.5 ft) wide.




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3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#55287 - 01/28/16 02:32 PM Re: The wheel, better than sliced bread? [Re: Orac]
Bill Offline
Megastar

Registered: 12/31/10
Posts: 1858
Loc: Oklahoma, USA
I suspect that they quit building pyramids because of cultural changes. It may have been because of a change in the dynasty. I'm am a long way from being an expert on Egyptian history, but the periods of dynastic change were frequently turbulent. So later dynasties may have just had different stylistic preferences. After all in the clothing industry styles change yearly. So burial styles can certainly change on a dynastic scale.

Also between 1720 and 1710 bce Egypt was conquered by the Hyksos. They of course would have had completely different customs, so that may have been the reason. Some people think that the reason the Hyksos were successful was because they had chariots while the Egyptians didn't. That is pretty speculative.

And of course there may have been economic reasons. Building a pyramid has to be expensive. If they went through a period where they couldn't afford them that could have caused a change in fashion.

Then of course the basic idea of the pyramid was to preserve the body of the Pharaoh. It didn't work all that well. They were all looted. So they may have been going for more security by burying them in the Valley of the Kings. Of course that didn't work very well either.

Most of those are my undoubtedly garbled ideas. It may be the Hyksos invasion was the main change that drove the change from burial in pyramids.

Bill Gill
_________________________
C is not the speed of light in a vacuum.
C is the universal speed limit.

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#55288 - 01/28/16 02:43 PM Re: The wheel, better than sliced bread? [Re: paul]
Bill Offline
Megastar

Registered: 12/31/10
Posts: 1858
Loc: Oklahoma, USA
Originally Posted By: Paul
but seriously concerning the methods of transporting the
massive blocks to the pyramids , we know now that evidence
of wheels have been found ... there should be a massive pile
of ropes found somewhere that were used to pull the blocks.

They have found ropes around the pyramids. The Egyptians had many uses for ropes, including pulling things. Rope making was invented long before the pyramids were built.

Bill Gill
_________________________
C is not the speed of light in a vacuum.
C is the universal speed limit.

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#55289 - 01/28/16 02:57 PM Re: The wheel, better than sliced bread? [Re: Bill]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4135
Quote:
They have found ropes around the pyramids.


do you have a link to the ropes that were used
to pull the several hundred ton blocks with?

I cant seem to find them...
but you obviously have.
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3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#55290 - 01/28/16 02:58 PM Re: egypt had ships --> the great pyramid [Re: paul]
Bill Offline
Megastar

Registered: 12/31/10
Posts: 1858
Loc: Oklahoma, USA
Now that ship is impressive. Thanks for the picture.

Originally Posted By: Paul
lifting trade goods from a barge and placing them on a
pier would require ropes and pulleys and a pulley has a
wheel inside it.

Actually you can load and unload a ship by just carrying everything on your back. You can't manage huge objects that way, but at that time most materials were shipped in small containers which could be carried.

The Egyptians did trade around the Eastern Mediterranean.

It isn't clear whether the Egyptians had pulleys. They may have been able to design them, but they may not have had any materials that could take the strain.

Bill Gill
_________________________
C is not the speed of light in a vacuum.
C is the universal speed limit.

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#55291 - 01/28/16 03:17 PM Re: The wheel, better than sliced bread? [Re: paul]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4135
heres a picture of a few capstones.

with nothing but empty air above the pyramid , and no place
for people to stand while pulling on the ropes just how
did they place these granite capstones and the other stones just beneath the capstone?

remember now the only pulling tools they had was man power
and ropes...

I don't know how much the capstones weigh but the 4,000
pound ( 2 ton ) blocks just beneath makes me question
where the men stood that were pulling the blocks up by
ropes , how many men could stand on the 4 blocks at the top
and pull up the capstone?

and where did they stand as the capstone was placed , did
they step up onto the capstone and position in place
from there?

maybe they had helicopters as well.

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3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#55292 - 01/28/16 11:57 PM Re: The wheel, better than sliced bread? [Re: paul]
Bill Offline
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Registered: 12/31/10
Posts: 1858
Loc: Oklahoma, USA
Drat! I can see in my mind the answer to how they could have put the capstone on there, I just can't remember what it is called so I can't find it on the internet.

Basically you take a sturdy pole (A) that will be used to lift the block. Then you fasten another pole (B) to it at right angles. You start with the A pole laid over the top of the pyramid. The B pole is sticking straight up. A rope from the end of the A pole to the top end of the B pole provides strength to allow the pole to lift the block without snapping. Then you run a rope from the top of the B pole down the back side of the pyramid. Pulling on that rope brings the B pole down and the A pole up. Not only does it lift the block, it also swings it back into place on the top of the pyramid. Doing it this way you have a pull down one side of the pyramid transformed to a pull up the other side.

I'm not saying that this is the way they did it. But it is a simple way to do it. It was well within the capabilities of the Egyptian engineers to to this. So once again. The Egyptians didn't need some secret technology to accomplish their engineering feats. They just needed to apply simple procedures that had been worked out for centuries in advance of the time they started constructing the pyramids. After all people have been moving rocks for a long time. Ever since the lady of the cave told her good-for-nothing husband that she was tired of the rock in the middle of the cave and he should get rid of it NOW.

Bill Gill
_________________________
C is not the speed of light in a vacuum.
C is the universal speed limit.

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#55293 - 01/29/16 12:47 AM Re: The wheel, better than sliced bread? [Re: Bill]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4135
that sounds a little bit too technological for them to
accomplish or have the knowledge to perform.

besides why should they only use technology to set
the last few blocks of the millions of 2 ton blocks !!!

or why should they only decide to use technology after the
blocks have reached the construction site?

why not use levers such as the one you have described to
transport the blocks the entire distance from quarry to
construction site if they did use this technology.

in fact a lever is simply a wheel that only rotates a few
degrees of a circle.

Im going to stick with my thoughts that they did have
the wheel and they did use the wheel to transport the
blocks.

we cant say that wood and rope could not withstand the
stresses that a 2 ton block would place on 2 or 4 or 6
or 8 wheels of a transport vehicle now can we.

that man in the cave might have built an A frame to wrangle
that rock out of the cave with.

and tied a rope to the top of the A frame and then to the rock.

and then pulled the rope , lifted it , and moved it .
because the angle of the rope over the A frame
caused the man to supply 1/2 or less of the force
required to lift the rock straight up.

_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#55294 - 01/29/16 07:20 AM I have abdicated... [Re: Marchimedes]
Marchimedes Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 204
my dominance at my political site.

Guess where I'm gonna be spending some time?
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What? I've a drawing I want here. How I do that?

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#55295 - 01/29/16 04:51 PM Trouble with wheels. [Re: paul]
Marchimedes Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 204
Originally Posted By: paul
what is the difference between a block rolling on several
logs and a block rolling on several wheels?


The pyramid blocks were heavy, I don't see these wheels...



holding up to 70 tons like these wheels would...


upload images free

Quote:
same materials , you just don't need to have people
picking up the log at the back after the block has
rolled over it and bring it to the front.

they probably figured that one out also...


I can't say for sure if they had that fugured out. However, I do...



http://www.liberalforum.org/index.php?/topic/22244-and-the-horse-you-rode-in-on/?p=1059368426

Quote:
I don't ride horses, too expensive.


I don't sail yachts for the same reason.

Quote:
and theres plenty of evidence that the Egyptians
had wheels.

https://www.google.com/search?site=imghp...Search+by+image


Yea, a thousand years after the big pyramids were built. They had pottery wheels but turn them on their side and see how long they hold up to tons of weight.

Quote:
could these mysterious artifacts have been used as a form
to build wheels on in ancient Egypt?




What are they dated at and to me they look more like cogs. What material would they be forms for? Copper?

Quote:
maybe they really were sacrificial basins like is
mentioned on the image , that is the type of incomp
intelligence I would expect from a modern up to date by the book by the mainstream expectations archeologist


Dirt sifters, that's what I call them.

Quote:
or were they simply salad bowls?


More likely that than cereal bowls...

_________________________
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#55296 - 01/29/16 06:27 PM Re: paul, front and center! [Re: Marchimedes]
Amaranth Rose II Offline

Superstar

Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 962
Loc: Southeast Nebraska, USA
Hi, Marchy, welcome back. Just stick to the topic and don't stray into the outer realms of believability too far. No personal attacks, keep it polite and respectful of your audience and you'll be fine. I may not agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it as long as you are not being offensive or crude deliberately. Descend into the depths of personal remarks and you will incur my wrath which I'm sure you don't want to do.

Hope you have a good time. Please be considerate.
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If you don't care for reality, just wait a while; another will be along shortly. --A Rose


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#55297 - 01/29/16 06:38 PM Re: Trouble with wheels. [Re: Marchimedes]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4135
chariots used for war were introduced to the Egyptians
during an invasion , but that doesn't mean that the Egyptians
never used the wheel before that invasion.

and a 70 ton block distributed over 10 wheels is only
7 tons per wheel.

the Egyptians did use copper so with a few years of tinkering
with ways to move large blocks it seems to me that they
could have figured out how to copper clad a stone wheel
and axel to make a bearing that could be oiled.

or make solid copper wheels and axels.

cant say they were afraid of building large things ...

and after the pyramids were constructed they would have
melted them down for other uses.

we cant just say that they couldnt have done it unless
we have proof of how they did it , and we don't have that
proof.

we can only guess how they could have done it by the things
that they had access to and the precision that is seen in
their work and the types of things that they built.

we used the wheel for thousands of years before we started
building army tanks that are basically self propelled cannons
that have no purpose other than for war.

ie ... the first wheeled vehicles were not war machines.



a timeline for first uses of metals is in the below link.
http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/trades/metals.htm

Quote:
Wood was at times covered with thin copper plating held in place by copper nails, like the door of the temple of Amen-Re at Karnak
Its great door was of cedar of the royal domain, wrought with [copper; the great name upon it] was of electrum.


so they did have copper 4000 - 3150 BCE
and even the harder bronze 3150 - 2300 BCE to use
to build with.

so your suggestion than the form was used as a copper form
may be correct.

maybe even a bronze form.

but in either case its shape lends itself to a wheel that
could travel easy on sand as the final product wheel would
have a V shape tread.

the V shape would keep the wheel from bogging down into
the sand better.

you would need to assemble 2 of the wheel halves together
to make 1 wheel.

I don't have the date of the forms construction and a cog
was the first thing that I thought of also ... they could
have even been forms for casting a clay mold to make a cog
or wheel.

if this was used to make a clay mold to use in cog making

ie... to use the clay mold to create a sand mold to cast
metal in.

then there is a lot more to their advancements in
technology than I had though of myself.

by the way the Egyptians did use molds to cast metal in.

http://www.dartmouth.edu/~toxmetal/toxic-metals/more-metals/copper-history.html

Quote:
Most copper items in Egypt were produced by casting molten copper in molds. The Egyptians appear to have been one of several groups that independently developed the “lost-wax” method of casting, which is still used today. (Put simply, wax is formed into the shape of the end product, then covered in clay. The wax is melted out leaving a clay mold, which is then filled with molten copper. The mold is broken off when the metal is cool.)


Im thinking that the lost wax method wouldn't work so well
in Egypt because of the temperatures for such a large mold
and that is why they used shaped stones to render a clay
mold to use in making a sand cast.

what else could they be used for if not for making molds?


_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#55298 - 01/29/16 11:46 PM Re: Trouble with wheels. [Re: paul]
Bill Offline
Megastar

Registered: 12/31/10
Posts: 1858
Loc: Oklahoma, USA
Originally Posted By: Paul
and a 70 ton block distributed over 10 wheels is only
7 tons per wheel.

The famous Conestoga Wagon, widely used in the United States, had a capacity of 6 tons. That's for 4 wheels. That's 1 1/2 tons per wheel. 7 tons per wheel might be a bit of an overload.

I keep saying: There is no reason to postulate some wonderful forgotten technological achievement to explain the building of the pyramids. They could have done it with the technology that we know they did have.

Bill Gill
_________________________
C is not the speed of light in a vacuum.
C is the universal speed limit.

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#55299 - 01/30/16 01:22 AM Re: Trouble with wheels. [Re: Bill]
pokey Offline
Member

Registered: 08/22/07
Posts: 84
This is how it was done: "http://www.thepump.org/video-series-2",... perhaps.

There is also as section on "why" it was done.

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#55300 - 01/30/16 02:04 AM Re: Trouble with wheels. [Re: Bill]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4135
Quote:
I keep saying: There is no reason to postulate some wonderful forgotten technological achievement to explain the building of the pyramids. They could have done it with the technology that we know they did have.


I agree that they could have done it with the technology that
they did have.

the ancient Egyptians had cattle and oxen.

this page says that oxen were used as working animals.

and has pictures of cattle and oxen --> PULLING <--- stuff.

and they had hordes of cattle , so the only way that they
would use man power to pull blocks would be if they didnt
have working animals strong enough to pull the blocks.

Quote:
Some of the desert Neolithic rock art and later Egyptian tomb scenes reveal interesting clues to the development of cattle breeds after their initial introduction. The most ancient rock art depicts cattle with long horns, including a lyri-form and a type with horns pointed forward. However, short horned and polled cattle appear more frequently in later tomb scenes, with the polled being more common than the short-horned cattle. It would seem that the long-horned cattle (ngiw), on the basis of artistic representations, were the oldest domestic cattle bred in Egypt. They were used both in religious sacrifices and for their meat, and long horned castrated (oxen) appear to have been working animals of choice.

Read more: http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/cattle.htm#ixzz3ygnStXW5


http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/cattle.htm







knowing that they did have animals to pull ropes or wheeled
vehicles and they were already in use pulling plows and possibly other stuff it is really hard to imagine people
pulling on ropes to move the blocks much like it is hard
to imagine people today walking to work even though they
have a car sitting in their driveway gassed up and
ready to go.

only pure ignorance could deliver that type of thought
on how the blocks were moved.

and they don't look ignorant to me at all judging from
their accomplishments in fact I cant think of any other
ancient civilization that would come close to their intelligence.










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3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#55301 - 01/30/16 02:52 AM Re: Trouble with wheels. [Re: pokey]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4135
that's pretty clever , but how did they get all the water
into the locks all the way up to the top?

I already know how but was looking to see how they
were doing it and the videos seem to leave that important
part out.

its called the pyramid pump but wheres the pump?
_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#55302 - 01/30/16 04:02 AM Re: Trouble with wheels. [Re: paul]
Bill Offline
Megastar

Registered: 12/31/10
Posts: 1858
Loc: Oklahoma, USA

Here we have a picture of Egyptians moving a large statue of Djehutihotep. He was a noble living around 1900 BCE. Please observe all the cattle pulling the sledge and all of the wheels on it. This picture was found in Djehutihoteps tomb.

Bill Gill
_________________________
C is not the speed of light in a vacuum.
C is the universal speed limit.

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