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#55436 - 02/14/16 04:18 AM Re: Gravity Waves [Re: pokey]
paul Offline
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ok thanks I will redo that tomorrow then.

9:51 utc/gmt

for now heres a search of 9:00 utc - 11:00 utc

http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/m...ime%22%7D%7D%7D

I don't know how to determine if there would have been
a gravity fluctuation or if it would be delayed or not.

maybe tomorrow.

thanks for the time update pokey.
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#55437 - 02/14/16 01:12 PM Re: Gravity Waves [Re: Bill S.]
Orac Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bill S.
I take your point, but if at the heart of each BH is a singularity in which gravity is infinite, then even breaking out your calculator will not prevent collision.

You have been told the answer to this a number of times and still seem to repeat layman untruths.

The sort of singularity you describe only appears directly in the static black hole situation.

The static solution is probably totally unnatural like finding a sun not rotating. Conceptually you can imagine such a thing and the mathematics will explode in your face as an indication of how unnatural and unstable the thing is you have described much less how you would ever create the situation.

As I said the simple laws that govern the ignition coil on your car says that it will produce infinite voltage ... you don't seem to have a problem with that?

How about if I ignore friction then a pushed ball rolls infinitely you don't seem to have a problem with that?

BE CONSISTENT you have a problem with projected infinities start with more down to earth ones.

The detected black holes were rotating (as expected) and merged to a rotating black hole (as expected).

There are only two known exact solutions to a rotating black hole being (a)Kerr and (b)Kerr–Newman descriptions. Most scientists prefer the Kerr metric because the Kerr-Newman has a characteristic we generally don't see by observation.

Perhaps Bill S rather than repeat layman junk and BS you do some reading on what the exact Einstein solutions of a rotating black hole predict. That is bother to actually check rather than parrot other layman.

In a Kerr metric you get metric infinities in a surface description. So "no point" like in the static solution its a surface and the infinity is no different than the projected voltage infinity of an ignition coil. It's simply a value that if you ignore all the actual other details it mathematically projects to it isn't real. One of the things we will now be able to determine is what local factors control the maximum value. For your car ignition coil that is characteristics of the wire and air in and around the coil.


Edited by Orac (02/14/16 01:39 PM)
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#55438 - 02/14/16 01:59 PM Re: Gravity Waves [Re: Orac]
Orac Offline
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Now getting back to release data

As is normal for science all the data for the signal release has been published including the signal processing code and algorithms.

https://losc.ligo.org/s/events/GW150914/GW150914_tutorial.html

There will be 4 LIGO's online by January and the detections and data will be made public in realtime. As the new sensors obviously have the required sensitivity the detections will be continually coming in. There is work to increase the detector sensitivity by an estimated 10 fold and that will increase the detection rate even higher.

One of the two new detectors will obviously be Virgo in Italy but the 4th detector site to be operational by January isn't so obvious. Doing some asking about that at the moment and I will let you know when I get an answer. I would expect China and Russia will be scrambling with plans to get involved.

This is going to be like the first telescope and radio telescope, the data is suddenly going to start pouring in now the detection thresholds have been achieved. The really interesting stuff will be when we can project something going to happen with normal telescopes and then watch for the signal with ligo.

The first detection data is currently up but only available for creditted users. The first screenshots provided by Lubos show the current listings

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:https://losc.ligo.org/timeline/query/GW151226/

You can see the two new entries GW151012 & GW151226 as well as background data which are obviously close to publication so stay tuned.


Edited by Orac (02/14/16 02:16 PM)
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#55439 - 02/14/16 02:51 PM Re: Gravity Waves [Re: paul]
paul Offline
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ok , as far as I understand the ligo machines are simply
laser beams in long tunnels that must have sensors used to
detect the movement of the laser caused by gravity
fluctuations.

1) a seismic event on earth would cause a false astronomical
event reading as the ground the ligo is sitting on would tremble.

2) the ligo graphs not too surprisingly look exactly like
a graph of an earthquake.

3) if an seismic event occurred on the earth that was
strong enough to cause a gravity fluctuation of the
earths gravity field then this would also cause false
astronomical event readings.

I haven't yet looked into the possibilities of seismic
events causing a gravity field fluctuation of the earths
gravity field but it seems that it should be a normal occurrence due to the large volume of mass movement
found in a seismic event.

logic is telling me that these machines should be placed
away from the earth if precise measurements are desired
that do not correspond with earth seismic events.

there would be no need for long tunnels.
tiny satellites could be used to measure the location
of the laser beam as it passes through a series of detection
satellites.

the satellites positions could be remotely adjusted to the
desired frequency pattern and desired direction to record
any event that causes light to bend in the cosmos.
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#55440 - 02/14/16 03:09 PM Re: Gravity Waves [Re: paul]
paul Offline
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ok, looks like the earths gravity field is affected by
earth seismic events , lots of reading on the subject.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=is+earths+gravity+field+affected+by+earthquakes

unless the ligo machines have some type of anti gravity
field built in to remove the effects of earths gravity
field on the laser then the earths gravity field would
cause the laser to bend and tremble during a seismic event
occurring on the earth.

but having anti gravity built into the ligo would defeat the purpose of the ligo wouldn't it.
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#55441 - 02/14/16 04:03 PM Re: Gravity Waves [Re: paul]
paul Offline
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LOL ...

time lapse gravity anomalies from grace.

if the earth had a thick layer of water the waters
surface would deform to follow these differences in
gravity intensities.

there would be mountain ranges of water...
and water valleys...
it could be a really fun water park.

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#55442 - 02/14/16 05:06 PM Re: Gravity Waves [Re: paul]
Orac Offline
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You could actually bother to read stuff

https://www.ligo.caltech.edu/page/vibration-isolation

Yeah they have to suppress seismic activity and all earthquake stuff is well out of frequency but you layman never actually want to learn anything.

One of the tests of LIGO is to turn off the active suppression and actually detect seismic activity.

You could also google LIGO noise floor plots and actually look at the levels. The main stuff they have trouble with is man made and close to the LIGO's hence the signifcance of having two detectors separated by long distances. Each LIGO will also go thru a calibration process before and after runs to make sure they held calibration throughout the run.

Love the grasping at straw efforts. Never let the truth get in the way of a good religious story hey Paul. Perhaps GOD coughed or Pink Aliens did a war dance on top of LIGO they haven't calibrated those.

How about before posting ever more stupid things you all bother to actually read about the operation of LIGO, which is actually half the story of LIGO how to eliminate more and more noise and get detection sensitivity to what was required.

All of this stuff is really easy to find before posting stupid arguments.


Edited by Orac (02/14/16 05:52 PM)
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#55443 - 02/14/16 07:21 PM Re: Gravity Waves [Re: Orac]
paul Offline
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orac , are you saying that they do have anti gravity
built into the ligo's to isolate the recordings of earth
gravity fluctuations from cosmic gravity fluctuations?

that's brilliant !
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#55444 - 02/14/16 11:57 PM Re: Gravity Waves [Re: pokey]
Bill S. Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bill S
I take your point, but if at the heart of each BH is a singularity in which gravity is infinite, then even breaking out your calculator will not prevent collision.


Orac, I think you missed the point of this post, which was simply to suggest to Paul that our amateur “calculations” might not always be sufficient to see the whole picture.

Recall that I also said:

Quote:
You will probably recall from previous discussions that I have serious misgivings about singularities, or any scenario in which anything can become infinite. However, my scientific knowledge is limited, so I try to keep an open mind.


I think this indicates that I am not arguing in favour of misplaced singularities. Quite a long time ago you gave a very informative explanation of different kinds of singularity. I’m sure I have it somewhere in my notes, but can’t find it at the moment.
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#55445 - 02/15/16 12:28 AM Re: Gravity Waves [Re: Bill S.]
paul Offline
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Quote:
I take your point, but if at the heart of each BH is a singularity in which gravity is infinite, then even breaking out your calculator will not prevent collision.


I suppose you are saying that the gravitational force would
be infinite as well.

and since I don't think that mass has a set speed limit
because men gave it one I would have to say that if gravity were infinite anywhere in the cosmos we wouldn't be here now.

because everything with mass would have been sucked into it long long ago.

but in order to support the first flawed theory you must
continue to use flawed logic infinitely.

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#55446 - 02/15/16 02:35 AM Re: Gravity Waves [Re: paul]
Orac Offline
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Registered: 05/20/11
Posts: 2819
Loc: Currently Illinois, USA
Originally Posted By: paul
orac , are you saying that they do have anti gravity
built into the ligo's to isolate the recordings of earth
gravity fluctuations from cosmic gravity fluctuations?

that's brilliant !

No they trapped your GOD and get him to adjust it. They pay him by sacrificing a few goats.

Sorry I don't discuss stupidity but I do like to practice my satire.

You can't believe the result because of your beliefs and that is fine .. just say it, stop making silly stuff up.

The technical detailing of the active/passive suspension is quite clear and how it achieves suppression of interference, try reading instead of posting EVER MORE STUPID POSTS. All the suppression is calibrated and tested and they have lovely test series results.

At the moment all you are doing is insulting years of hard work by scientists and making a fool of yourself.

Originally Posted By: Paul
I suppose you are saying that the gravitational force would be infinite as well.

Gravity is not a force in GR so that is impossible and beyond wrong but is just stupid.

However in Newtonian gravity it is a force which goes to infinity at R=0, so using Paul logic it is wrong ... PAUL, SCORES AN OWN GOAL laugh


Edited by Orac (02/15/16 06:11 AM)
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#55448 - 02/15/16 03:39 AM Re: Gravity Waves [Re: Orac]
Orac Offline
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Rose my dear so how would you like me to handle this under our new liberal discussion policy?

We have one of the more important and interesting scientific advancements which it would be interesting to discuss. Then we have our resident religious elements wanting to post the usual science is bad, science is wrong posts continually.

Should I argue with what is a completely ridiculous trash or just ignore it? I fear this is going to try and end up like arguing with Marosz an exercise in stupidity.

I am will be happy to ignore them so long as they keep posts brief so they don't break up the discussion. How many words do you really need to say science is evil/bad/wrong every post.

As expected with the policy you are getting quite a band of crackpots here and it's starting to look nothing like a science forum. I however do get fun practicing my English, and at least for me I gain something smile


Edited by Orac (02/15/16 03:52 AM)
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#55449 - 02/15/16 04:55 AM Re: Gravity Waves [Re: Orac]
Orac Offline
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In preprint the Fermi Space telescope has recorded a gamma ray burst which is consistent with the LIGO result.

http://gammaray.nsstc.nasa.gov/gbm/publications/preprints/gbm_ligo_preprint.pdf

Unfortunately the telescope wasn't looking directly at the event area at the time and so can only say the results are consistent.

In techno speak:
"The most likely location of GW150914-GBM falls within the likely location of the gravity wave source GW150914"

As discussed in future when events can be predicted both Ligo and the normal telescopes will be able to synchronize observations.

As the above shows even unplanned there is a high probability given the number of telescopes in operation that events from Ligo will be able to be directly confirmed. There is even a good chance as the other events of the first run are released they may be able to be matched to telescope observations.

The interesting part technically is that for a gamma ray emission to be made by the event there had to be matter close but still outside the black holes event horizon during the merger. If that is common then it is going to open ability for some sort of "x-ray" analysis of matter very close to a black hole during a merger which has got lots of scientists thinking about new space instruments.


Edited by Orac (02/15/16 05:43 AM)
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#55454 - 02/15/16 01:13 PM Re: Gravity Waves [Re: Orac]
Bill S. Offline
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Registered: 08/20/10
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I’ve not had time to read all of this, nor am I likely to, but, from what I have read, it seems like the sort of cautious record of an observation that would be classed as sound science, whatever the ultimate outcome.

Quote:
…. it's starting to look nothing like a science forum.


One of the reasons I have stuck with SAGG is that “non-scientific” opinions are not usually stamped flat on sight. However, it seems a shame that a combination of trolling and politics makes it the sort of forum that people looking for scientific answers, or willing to give such answers, would find off putting.
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#55456 - 02/15/16 01:55 PM Re: Gravity Waves [Re: Orac]
paul Offline
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I see someones tail between his legs as he runs away
whinning .... boo hoo hoo

they may have a suspension system installed to counteract
any ground movement below the ligo but there is
no counteraction available that would counteract any
gravity fluctuations due to seismic activity...

laugh

BTW orac , SAGG isn't a pat on the back forum where know
it all's gather to confirm each others intelligence.

if you cant handle criticism or if your version of science
isn't respected on SAGG the way you personally believe it
should be then you should go find yourself a nice
compatible pat on the back forum , there a dime a dozen but theres no discussion available.

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#55457 - 02/15/16 02:57 PM Re: Gravity Waves [Re: paul]
paul Offline
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Posts: 4136
BTW...

the gravity from outside the earths gravity field would
be a pull away from the earth correct?

then why is it that the beginning lines in
both the H1 and L1 graphs show the direction of the
intensity of gravity as being towards the earth
and not away from the earth?

zoom in ... zooooom wayyy in... see for yourselfishness.



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#55458 - 02/15/16 05:12 PM Re: Gravity Waves [Re: paul]
Orac Offline
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Originally Posted By: paul
they may have a suspension system installed to counteract any ground movement below the ligo but there is
no counteraction available that would counteract any
gravity fluctuations due to seismic activity...

REPEATING LIES DOES NOT MAKE THEM TRUE.

Ready it's really simple even religious practitioners should be able to understand.

You have two LIGO's turn the seismic suppression off one and leave it on the other .... DOH.

Wait for a reasonable earthquake now compare results smile

You can tell if the seismic suppression works pretty dam easy and put error bars and numbers around the suppression ability.

So the seismic suppression is calibrated .... SO STOP LYING OR AT BEST MAKING THINGS UP.

Those scientists are pretty dam sneaky and we didn't even have to sacrifice a goat.


Edited by Orac (02/15/16 05:48 PM)
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#55459 - 02/15/16 05:20 PM Re: Gravity Waves [Re: paul]
Orac Offline
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Registered: 05/20/11
Posts: 2819
Loc: Currently Illinois, USA
Originally Posted By: paul
then why is it that the beginning lines in
both the H1 and L1 graphs show the direction of the
intensity of gravity as being towards the earth
and not away from the earth?

I shouldn't laugh but that was pretty funny. I am not sure how to even start with this one ... hmm lets try.

Here is a graph of an electrical AC waveform of a power mains on an oscilloscope which looks like this



So are you saying the positive waveform means the voltage is going away from earth and the negative part towards earth?

If you get the problem with that, then you will get why I was laughing at your comment. I really am not sure how you want me to answer it as it's really really silly.

So Paul, does turning the graph upside down make it different? smile


Edited by Orac (02/15/16 05:47 PM)
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#55460 - 02/15/16 05:43 PM Re: Gravity Waves [Re: Bill S.]
Orac Offline
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Registered: 05/20/11
Posts: 2819
Loc: Currently Illinois, USA
Originally Posted By: Bill S.
One of the reasons I have stuck with SAGG is that “non-scientific” opinions are not usually stamped flat on sight. However, it seems a shame that a combination of trolling and politics makes it the sort of forum that people looking for scientific answers, or willing to give such answers, would find off putting.

I agree which is why I questioned Rose. I think the science/NQS division was much better, when enforced it stopped the trolling and interrupting.

For me the forum works because I can practice my English, mixed with science. I often wonder what you get from here you sort have graduated beyond most of the discussions here.

I laughed over at one of the Paul's thread AR2 posted
Originally Posted By: Amaranth Rose II
I don't see how this topic relates to anything remotely scientific. This is a social issue.

Not sure why this particular post was singled out.


Edited by Orac (02/15/16 05:44 PM)
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#55464 - 02/15/16 07:09 PM Re: Gravity Waves [Re: pokey]
Bill S. Offline
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Posts: 3570
Loc: Essex, UK
Here's a thought. Part of the definition of a field is that it can have waves in it. In quantum fields, these waves are also particles.

Now that (hopefully) gravity waves have been detected, will one of the next steps be to try to find out if wave/particle duality applies to gravity?
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