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paul Offline OP
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yes I recall that ... lol ... the confederate states
first seceded from the union , so that the people and the
armies of the confederate states were no longer protected
by the us constitution and the confederate states formed
their own confederate constitution...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederate_States_Constitution

so you haven't really said enough to say "nuff said"
causezitaint anuffsaid.

Quote:
So Conspiracy Theorists continue using all kinds of distorted theories to support their weird ideas.


I agree , that's why I used the available facts found in the
constitution , the bill of rights , and the united states code
and a theory that cant be proven to be right
will always simply be a theory.

so , I suppose knowing the facts about this makes your
side of the discussion seem like a conspiracy and the
facts make you seem more like a conspiracy theorist than me.


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Well, maybe just a few more words, then this is done.

What I have been trying to point out is that there are people who make claims about what the US Constitution requires which is not necessarily what it actually requires. And there are places where there is a legitimate difference of opinion as to the meaning of some parts of it. In this particular case the second amendment. The exact meaning depends on how you parse it out.

In regard to gun control it is obvious that the 2nd amendment is an important part of the argument, but since there is a disagreement as to what it means we will have to wait until the US Supreme Court finally makes a decision on the matter. The Supreme Court is the body which has final authority to interpret it.

In the mean time as far as gun control per se is concerned I am still holding my judgement. Until there is convincing evidence to back up a position I will straddle the fence. I still think that the correct answer will be found to be some place in the middle between the 2 extremes.

Bill Gill


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Somewhere along the line we need to focus on stopping people from shooting other people and then killing themselves either by using the gun on themselves or by cop-assisted suicide. We need to find a way to stop the carnage before it happens. There are a lot of factors involved with these types of situations, but the fact is that guns are far too easily available to those who want to harm others. We have become a society that is run through with guns and killing. The popular games all show lots of guns and blood and gore and almost glorify it. As long as we hold the images of death and destruction up for reward as "play" we will continue to have people who are determined to go out and kill people for real. Play killing desensitizes us to the real thing. It lowers the threshold for a person to do it for real. As long as we feed kids violence in the form of games we are going to have real violence coming from the emotionally disturbed sector of people out there.


If you don't care for reality, just wait a while; another will be along shortly. --A Rose

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Ending the destruction of man and property requires having a value system that supports diversity rather than specialty, and highlights unity over the worship of power and money. Children are rewarded for success and punished for failure. This is human demoralization. Fear of failure causes man to judge in defense of ones self doubt and self worth.

Guns are merely a means. Take them away and as long as the stress continues within the value systems of human idealism which separates man by success and failure, desperate personalities seeking support where there is none, will in their desperation, find other means to deal out their own kind of justice and or stress release.

The destruction of laws created as the foundation for judgment based on greater knowledge and awareness in favor of democratic rule is insane.
Take any demoralized group of people, manipulate them with hope by targeting another group of people and you sway them towards creating choices that not only invade equality and justice, but take human rights and replace them with fear based law abiding "worse case scenario's" that set paranoia into place as the common feel of the land. Every war has been created this way. Set up a scenario for suffering, place your blame and attack those responsible. Then those who set the blame take charge and create laws that support their own interests.

The gun debate is smoke and mirrors focusing on the objects of destruction and not the cause of their use. Those who use these smoke and mirror tactics seek to change the law to give more power to those in charge, by destroying the laws that inhibit their ability to force law to their favor in creating absolute power within government rather than representation of the people.

The dumb-ing down of all people thru the degradation of education, use of the media to sensationalize and stereotype politicians and actors as hero's, and creating judgment, fear and criticism of free will, is synonymous with the biblical prophecies of "The Beast". The Authority that decides human value and destiny.


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Heres an interesting article.. a bit off topic but in line with the idea of education, belief and manipulation of facts.
http://www.theeventchronicle.com/study/e...20Is%20A%20Lie#


I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!




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paul Offline OP
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Hi Amaranth

your right , I just don't believe that removing guns
will stop the killings because there are many other ways
to kill and injure people.

someone with a cross bow can do the exact same thing that
a person with a gun can , and he never will run out of ammo
if you don't believe me then you have never watched Darrel on the walking dead.

on the walking dead they use baseball bats , knives , crowbars , pipes , anything that is heavy and handy to
kill the dead people with by smashing their skulls in
or anything light that is pointy to penetrate their brains with.

the intent of gun control obviously is not to remove the killing it is to remove the ability of the people to revolt and attack any protection / defense that a government of tyrants may have in place and to remove such government of tyrants from power.

without gun control there will be far less attackers killed
than there would be if the attackers were using sticks and stones to perform the attacks with.

however I certainly do agree with you that something needs to
be done about the killing and when I talk about the killing I
mean all the killing from all sources of preventable killing.

certainly not starting with gun control ... start with the number one killer first because starting with the number one killer will save many more lives.

then go to number two ... then number three ... number four ...etc ...etc ...etc ............................
.....................etc and when you finally reach deep enough into the numbered list of killers where accidental deaths or murders from firearms is our country will no longer need protection from tyrants because they will have already been found guilty of murder and killed or fled the scene to save themselves from prosecution and death.

I hope everythings going ok with you Amaranth.




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Originally Posted By: Tutor Turtle
Heres an interesting article.. a bit off topic but in line with the idea of education, belief and manipulation of facts.
http://www.theeventchronicle.com/study/e...20Is%20A%20Lie#

Originally Posted By: the Event Chronicle
Everything We Have Been Taught About Our Origins Is A Lie

I assume that includes what they are teaching. They certainly seem to be using some rather far fetched examples. Taking the first one. They are showing a picture of a metal hammer with a broken wooden handle which was supposedly found embedded in 400 million year old rock. But the hammer head is not rusted completely away and the handle is not rotted completely away. I'm afraid that when I lose a hammer the head begins rusting almost immediately and the wooden handle rots in just a year or 2. I don't think that things were that much different 400 million years ago. Now if they are young earthers they say that the earth is only around 6,000 years old. In that case the rock must have been formed directly by God. I'm not sure why he bothered to form a rock with a broken hammer embedded in it. I'm afraid that it is hard to support their claims on the basis of this 'find'.

Bill Gill


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Originally Posted By: Bill
I'm not sure why he bothered to form a rock with a broken hammer embedded in it. I'm afraid that it is hard to support their claims on the basis of this 'find'.


Obviously the hammer was left there by the Devil when he was "planting" fossils to confuse believers.


There never was nothing.
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Interestingly some of the corresponding articles attribute discrepancies and disbelief to bad archaeology. Possibly the carbon dating process supposedly used is inadequately inaccurate or improperly used or just outright fabricated.

Who knows. Might be we just assume what we are told by the accepted authority is absolute. That way we can poo poo anything we don't want to believe that may contrary to the status quo as it's dictated by authority and appears in a book. Seems to work for Christianity wink


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Well, I followed the article down farther and I'm not sure what the author is trying to prove, since he runs down both evolutionists and creationists. I'm not sure what other way the universe could have come into existence.

He is also accepting the human foot prints alongside dinosaur foot prints from down in Texas. I understand that at least one major creationist web site has accepted that those are fakes.

I didn't see any place where the author stated how the dates were established. For most of them carbon dating wouldn't work. It isn't useful for anything past around 50,000 years.

Bill Gill


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LOL , heres a gun control point to ponder for all of those who
don't believe in any form of religion or those who
do believe in a form of religion , and even for
those who have or have chosen to design their own
specific form of religion because all other forms
of religion just don't fit into their lifestyle or desires.

what the kings in what is now the europe used to do was
to impose a religion onto its peoples , there really
wasn't any free speech rights protecting speech similar
to what is in the several comments above that are
uncredibly attempting to dismiss the values of religion.

statements such as those above would have you burnt on
a stake if you were a man , or drowned on a stake as the
tides roll in if you were a woman.

that's what the british tyrants used to do to the scottish
because they wanted the scottish people to practice the episcopalian religion and the scottish people wanted to practice the protestant religion.

and as they watched the young scottish girls drown as
the tides rolled in.

one of the girls said as they pulled her head out of the water
their mothers and family and friends pleading for them to say
God save the king.
she uttered
God save the king if he will...

they then told her to renounce her faith and to swear her
faith to the episcopalian faith.

her unwanted reply that brought her to death.
I am a child of christ.

both these religions are supposed to be centered
around christ.

so you even had christians killing christians because
of a difference in their respective religions.

and the binding factor was fear , the tyrants used fear to
control all aspects of your life including any beliefs that
you might have , you dare not open your mouth to utter a word
against the king or against God.

the right to fight in the us constitution was placed there
so that this type of tyranny and oppression would never find
a foothold in the us the way it did in the europe.

i'm not going to take the bait you guys have on your fishing
lines but the next time you go for a walk , think about the
lives of those who have walked before you and those who have
sacrificed their life so that you can have the freedoms
that you have today and look back at
your footprints that you will leave.






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Originally Posted By: paul
think about the
lives of those who have walked before you and those who have
sacrificed their life so that you can have the freedoms
that you have today and look back at
your footprints that you will leave.
I have no desire to become a martyr, nor fight other peoples battles so their lives become better without any contrasts to stimulate their desires to choose a state of mind.

Yes there are plenty of Hero's to show us that if you put your mind to it, that not only is self realization possible, but that it (understanding thru experience) is superior to complacency and any logic that follows the thought of "I'll just accept what anyone tells me as truth without any need to experience anything for myself." Gun control or any other type of control implies a lack in the capabilities of man to survive the attributes (like weapons of war) of a civilization that creates destructive weapons to protect itself from one another. IF mankind is unable to get along in the first place then perhaps it shouldn't be able to arm itself or create anything to harm itself. But the obvious rationale, is that no matter how intelligent one is, self destruction seems to be inclusive of fear and the need to follow any worst case scenario within the imagination.

We are taught to fear, not taught to understand ourselves or to even master our fears. We are taught to compare and judge ourselves which often leads to competition that isn't inspired by creativity but rather self worth. Psychological profiling and segregation are part and parcel to education, social, political and even religious belief.

All authorities of government in history have used weapons of all kinds. From words to rocks spears, swords, arrows, guns and to those of mass destruction to kill anyone who threatens a particular social idealism or the ground upon which it is created and practiced. The simple fact is, no matter what the state of the hierarchy, whether put into the right or wrong hands, innocent people die when they (weapons of any kind) are used for personal protection or for righteous protection.

Man fears man and there is not nearly as much attention put upon understanding the nature of man as there is in accepting that man is dangerous and needs protection from himself.

So, History shows us that man continues to do the same thing over and over again with the same results. Why continue walking in the shoes of man that perpetuates the same habits that don't produce any better results in self understanding or the understanding of ones relationship with each other or the universe?


I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!




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Hi TT , how is everything in the world and in the universe today? ... LOL

Quote:
So, History shows us that man continues to do the same thing over and over again with the same results. Why continue walking in the shoes of man that perpetuates the same habits that don't produce any better results in self understanding or the understanding of ones relationship with each other or the universe?


why continue?
because -- man continues to do the same thing over and over again with the same results.

history is our guide book , we look at history and we either
learn from history or we relive history.

I am really concerned with the amount of immigrants moving
into the europe and the economic results that are a result of the sudden and prolonged care for these immigrants by the nations that are accepting these immigrants into their countries and my main concern is centered around the prejudice and treatment and the lack of caring that the
europe nations are showing these immigrants.
and i'm seeing similarities between the turn of the
last century around ... ww1

people trying to protect their culture / way of life.
the immigrants are just trying to survive and so they flee
the war zones.

lets just skip the wars this time and take them in.

some of our best us citizens were / are immigrants , we
all came from immigrant ancestors no matter what country
we live in now.

but we should drop any preference as to religion as this will
and is causing ill feelings towards the immigrants.
they should have a right to their choice of religion and
to practice their chosen religion but they
do not have the right nor does anyone else have the right to
cause people to take down or remove religious icons or buildings to satisfy specific religions.

it may come to the point that the immigrants will be met at
the borders and the women with children and the children and the old and sick will be allowed into the country but the
able bodied men and women will be handed arms and ammunition and pointed back towards the country that they fled from and told to go and fight for what is yours and what food you can find or kill for and when you win you can come back for your family.

it could get that way when the people of a nation decide that
there just isn't enough to support them all.

of course something will have to be done about the economies
of the world to prevent people from joining the wars and warring factions in order to have a income because what would have been their jobs that their fathers worked at were all shipped to the low wage nations by those planning all of these wars.






















































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Originally Posted By: Paul
man continues to do the same thing over and over again with the same results.


Isn't doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result one of the signs of insanity?

Quote:
it could get that way when the people of a nation decide that
there just isn't enough to support them all.


That has a ring of familiarity to it.

http://www.nature.com/news/the-greatest-...=ODAwNjg1ODAwS0


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but what about when you roll the dice?

same thing , different results.

I think the reason they left their homes was because of
the thunderbirds as pictured in the below image.



which may also be why the people vanished.

I certainly would.


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Originally Posted By: Paul
and the binding factor was fear , the tyrants used fear to
control all aspects of your life including any beliefs that
you might have , you dare not open your mouth to utter a word
against the king or against God.

the right to fight in the us constitution was placed there
so that this type of tyranny and oppression would never find
a foothold in the us the way it did in the europe.


I haven't seen anything in the constitution that provides a right to fight. In fact the Bill of Rights, the first 10 amendments, is basically to keep the government from imposing extreme measures that would require fighting.
Originally Posted By: US Constitution
Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Amendment II

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

Amendment III

No soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.

Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Amendment V

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Amendment VI

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.

Amendment VII

In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.

Amendment VIII

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

Amendment IX

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

The first amendment specifically addresses the subjects you mentioned, freedom of religion and freedom of speech. The first clause, freedom of religion, is meant to keep any form of religion from being forced on any body. The second clause, freedom of speech, allows anybody to talk against the government. The Supreme Court is usually pretty good about enforcing those clauses. In fact they have caused a lot of grief to people who are trying to 'protect' things a lot of people think are good. Things like school prayer and religious monuments on public property.

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Originally Posted By: paul

So, History shows us that man continues to do the same thing over and over again with the same results. Why continue walking in the shoes of man that perpetuates the same habits that don't produce any better results in self understanding or the understanding of ones relationship with each other or the universe?
Ignorance
Originally Posted By: paul

why continue?
When man continues to do the same thing over and over again with the same results.

history is our guide book , we look at history and we either
learn from history or we relive history.

Ergo, the repetition of similar outcomes means man is not learning anything new. Mostly running on the assumption that rearranging the same reasoning at the level in which the problem was created might create an alternate outcome.
Originally Posted By: paul

I am really concerned with the amount of immigrants moving
into the europe and the economic results that are a result of the sudden and prolonged care for these immigrants by the nations that are accepting these immigrants into their countries and my main concern is centered around the prejudice and treatment and the lack of caring that the
europe nations are showing these immigrants.
and i'm seeing similarities between the turn of the
last century around ... ww1

people trying to protect their culture / way of life.
the immigrants are just trying to survive and so they flee
the war zones.

lets just skip the wars this time and take them in.
I don't know how accurate the report is, but I recently read an article where in Sweden the majority of the rape incidents among Swedish women are committed by 2% of the Muslim men. They freely call Swedish women "Whore" because they do not submit to their structure of beliefs and cover themselves as required by Muslim law, giving free license for Muslim men to rape them.
Originally Posted By: paul

but we should drop any preference as to religion as this will
and is causing ill feelings towards the immigrants.


Originally Posted By: paul

some of our best us citizens were / are immigrants , we
all came from immigrant ancestors no matter what country
we live in now.
That was then and this is now.
Originally Posted By: paul

but we should drop any preference as to religion as this will
and is causing ill feelings towards the immigrants.
they should have a right to their choice of religion and
to practice their chosen religion but they
do not have the right nor does anyone else have the right to
cause people to take down or remove religious icons or buildings to satisfy specific religions.
Or demand others take up their beliefs or punish those who don't.
Originally Posted By: paul

it may come to the point that the immigrants will be met at
the borders and the women with children and the children and the old and sick will be allowed into the country but the
able bodied men and women will be handed arms and ammunition and pointed back towards the country that they fled from and told to go and fight for what is yours and what food you can find or kill for and when you win you can come back for your family.

it could get that way when the people of a nation decide that
there just isn't enough to support them all.

of course something will have to be done about the economies
of the world to prevent people from joining the wars and warring factions in order to have a income because what would have been their jobs that their fathers worked at were all shipped to the low wage nations by those planning all of these wars.


I kinda get a feeling the U.N. is already herding people as a shepherd would his animals...




















































[/quote]


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Originally Posted By: Paul
but we should drop any preference as to religion as this will
and is causing ill feelings towards the immigrants.
they should have a right to their choice of religion and
to practice their chosen religion but they
do not have the right nor does anyone else have the right to
cause people to take down or remove religious icons or buildings to satisfy specific religions.

Amen, except that religious icons or buildings should not be tolerated as government symbols. Anybody should be able to put up any sort of religious symbol they want to, on their property, but not on public property. The government should not advance or deny any religious view. The First Amendment was devised to keep the US government from doing just that.

Bill Gill


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good news , but I don't think its new news because I
remember hearing about this a while back.

on the cbs evening news a few days back there was a story
about a new smart gun technology.

where the firearm will not fire unless the owner has his
fingerprints on the trigger .. and if this tech works then
a lot of children playing with their parents guns wont get killed or injured accidentaly.

the story states that every 30 minutes or so a child is
killed or injured in the us each year.

48 per day * 365 days = 17,520 children a year.
that is a lot of injuries because the deaths are
apx 600 ( high estimate )

I still think training people and parents and even children
in the proper way to operate and store a firearm would
be the better idea.

because there will still be loads of the non tech weapons
laying around peoples houses on dressers and in unlocked drawers and in glove compartments in cars etc...

its not the guns fault in a accidental child gun shooting its
the parents fault for not properly securing the weapon.




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Quote:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances


and respecting can be written as acknowledging a religion.

the government should not acknowledge any form of religion
and should not deny any form of religion and should not
prohibit any citizen of the united states to practice his
religion as long as his religious practices do not interfere
with another citizens religious practices.

ie ... your rights stop where my rights begin.

if you are in my country then you are subject to the
laws of my country.

as for the traditional Christmas decorations and holiday
greetings and the outward practicing and expressing the
holiday cheer and so on ... if you don't like the holiday
that my country has traditionally held every year then
if your not a prisoner in the us and you have the ability
then you can leave my country if you so wish.

if I were to visit your country I wouldn't expect that
your country would stop its traditional holidays just
because I might not like them.



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