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#54863 - 11/28/15 06:46 PM Re: What Killed the Dinosaurs? [Re: Bill S.]
paul Offline
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NP

heres another video about the Cambrian and the nothing
significant below the Cambrian that should be there if
evolution is correct.

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3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#54864 - 11/28/15 06:50 PM Re: What Killed the Dinosaurs? [Re: Bill]
Bill S. Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bill
...while there were no literal 'scriptures' before writing was invented there were plenty of oral traditions. They can count as 'scriptures' in the generic sense that they were the source of the written words. Every culture had its own creation myths...


This must lead to questions like: "Does the Bible have any better claim be the word of God than do (e.g.)the Upanishads, the Bhagavad-Gita or the teachings of the Buddha?
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#54866 - 11/28/15 11:45 PM Re: What Killed the Dinosaurs? [Re: Bill S.]
Bill Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bill S.
This must lead to questions like: "Does the Bible have any better claim be the word of God than do (e.g.)the Upanishads, the Bhagavad-Gita or the teachings of the Buddha?

The Bible has a much better claim if you happen to be a born again Christian.

Bill Gill
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#54867 - 11/28/15 11:53 PM Re: What Killed the Dinosaurs? [Re: Bill S.]
paul Offline
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there have been a few ice ages in the last several hundred thousand years , and a trace back to the original human may
not be possible using the passed down versions of history and
creation.

because there may be cultures that were wiped out because
of the climatic changes in the areas that they migrated to.

so the only remains of these wiped cultures would be any
bits of pieces they left behind.

and much of those pieces would be under the seas today
because the sea shore would be the warmest places to be
and a better place to be for those who like eating fish.

so the best evidence we have is found in the written history and creation stories that we know about.

there's really no way to tell just how old man is by the
evidence that we do know about.

but the evidence that we do know about points to creation
and not to evolution.

there have been no major changes to species found in that
one species is shown to have become another species ( kind ).

if I had to choose ( without any solid evidence ) I would say
that apes devolved from man possibly due to climatic
changes ( adaption ) during the ice ages what are today
referred to as apes were men left out in the cold while
what is now referred to as modern man went underground to survive.
_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#54870 - 11/29/15 02:47 PM Re: What Killed the Dinosaurs? [Re: paul]
Bill Offline
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Originally Posted By: Paul
there have been a few ice ages in the last several hundred thousand years , and a trace back to the original human may
not be possible using the passed down versions of history and
creation.

That is completely wrong. According to the Bible there has not been nearly that long for anything to happen. There have not been hundreds of thousands of years. The Bible clearly says that the world was created in 6 days, and then after that adding up the ages of the patriarchs gives only around 6 or 7,000 years. So forget about anything earlier than 7,000 years ago.

I know that some people talk about creation taking much longer than 6 days, but if they do then they are going against the word of God. God told the patriarchs that He created the world in 6 days, so that is what they put in the Bible. Any body who says they weren't really the same as our days is calling God a liar. I'm not one to do that.

Bill Gill
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C is not the speed of light in a vacuum.
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#54871 - 11/29/15 04:51 PM Re: What Killed the Dinosaurs? [Re: Bill]
paul Offline
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the Bible does say that creation lasted 6 days.

the Bible also says that a day with God is as a thousand years.

now ... do you remember reading genesis?

when God instructed man about eating of the fruits of the
trees in the garden , he clearly stated that if man were
to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that
he would die...

they would have never died if they would not have eaten from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil else God would not
have warned them that they would die if they did.

really why would God say that they would die?

and we don't really know how many days that passed away before
adam and eve ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and
evil after adam was created by God , but for each of those days that did pass then each day would have been as a thousand years as it is with God.

thus therefore and hitherto , a hundred days would be as a hundred thousand years.

a single year would have been as 365 thousand years.

it appears that you do take the Word of God literally when
you imagine that it may come in handy in a discussion about the Bible so its obvious that this will clear up your concerns.

there were a lot of animals for adam to name in the
garden and naming each one would have taken a really long time
especially when adam had no previously used names to choose from and he had to invent each name that he used in the naming of all of the animals on earth.


_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#54875 - 11/29/15 07:02 PM Re: What Killed the Dinosaurs? [Re: Bill]
Bill Offline
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Originally Posted By: Paul

and we don't really know how many days that passed away before
adam and eve ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and
evil after adam was created by God , but for each of those days that did pass then each day would have been as a thousand years as it is with God.

Originally Posted By: 2 Peter 3, KJV
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.


Then the Lord sees one day (our time) as a thousand years. But 1000 years (our time) is 1 day to the Lord. So which is it?

I agree that the Bible doesn't say anything about when they ate of the fruit, but I don't see how that can be counted for or against the age of the universe. Since by that time they were on Earth they should have been keeping Earth time, one day per day. It is only the Lord that has the odd time keeping. I really prefer to think that when Peter made his statement he was talking about a completely different subject, and his statement is being taken out of context. He was using the Lord's time keeping to explain why the second coming hadn't happened yet.

Of course the Lords time keeping sounds a lot like time in Special Relativity. It all depends on your frame of reference.

Bill Gill
_________________________
C is not the speed of light in a vacuum.
C is the universal speed limit.

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#54877 - 11/29/15 07:05 PM Re: What Killed the Dinosaurs? [Re: paul]
Bill S. Offline
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Registered: 08/20/10
Posts: 3570
Loc: Essex, UK
Originally Posted By: Paul
because there may be cultures that were wiped out because
of the climatic changes in the areas that they migrated to.

so the only remains of these wiped cultures would be any
bits of pieces they left behind.

and much of those pieces would be under the seas today
because the sea shore would be the warmest places to be
and a better place to be for those who like eating fish.


Have a care, there, Paul; there's a pro-evolution argument that starts something like that. smile
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#54878 - 11/29/15 07:42 PM Re: What Killed the Dinosaurs? [Re: Bill]
Bill S. Offline
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Loc: Essex, UK
It surprises me that when we venture into the creation v evolution debate we turn only to the Bible. We have in our midst TT, who has obviously thought more broadly, yet neither he nor anyone else, cites things like the quote from the Chandogya Upanishad that seems to link creation with an evolutionary process.

“1 In the beginning, my dear, this was Being alone' one only
without a second. Some people say 'in the beginning this Was non-
being alone, one only; without a second. From that non-being, being
was produced.'
2. But how, indeed, my dear, could it be thus? said he [i.e., the
sage Uddalaka], how could being be produced from non-being? On the
contrary, my dear, in the beginning this was being alone, one only,
without a second.
3. It thought, May I be many, may I grow forth. It sent forth fire.
That fire thought, May I be many, may I grow forth. It sent forth water. . . .
4. That water thought, May I be many, may I grow forth. It sent forth food. . . .”
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#54879 - 11/29/15 10:55 PM Re: What Killed the Dinosaurs? [Re: Bill]
paul Offline
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Quote:
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.


what is being said is

that one day (Gods time)
is with the Lord
as a thousand years (our time).

and a thousand years (our time)
is as one day (Gods time).

I have considered that the below might be the case.

one day of Gods time is as a thousand years
and each day of that thousand years is a thousand years of our time.

that would really be a long time.
because there would be

1 day (Gods time) = 365 x 1000 x 1000 = 365 million years (our time)

6 days (Gods time) = 2.1 billion years (our time)

God created the fish and the birds on the 5th day
which causes the above to fit in with the Cambrian explosion
that occurred apx 542 million years ago and lasted until
apx 485 million years ago.
and the 5th day ended in the Paleozoic era between
the mississippian and devonean period first amphibians and
that fits right in with the Bibles 5th day creations.

of course on the 6th day God created all the land animals and
then he created man and the 6th day began 365 million
years ago if the above is correct and lasted until adam
and eve were created and God rested on the 7th day and then they ate the forbidden fruit
and the recording of the time of man began.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambrian_explosion






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3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#54881 - 11/30/15 04:26 AM Re: What Killed the Dinosaurs? [Re: paul]
Orac Offline
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Loc: Currently Illinois, USA
Sorry the problem with that is look at the ages of the humans in genesis and multiply them by 1000 years.

For example Cain murdered his brother at the age of 15, that means Cain was 15 000 years old. There are many human age in the book of genesis. Adam lived for 930 years so he is now a sprightly 930,000 years old.

So your only way out then is to say the 1000 year multiplier is only on the first part of genesis before the humans appear.

At that stage you are interpreting and admitting the book isn't accurate. You might as well interpret the story as being an allegory which is how most of the old mainstream religions take it.

To me a telling point is the Quran does not contain the start of genesis yet it does include almost every other detail, Adam and Eve, Cain and Able etc.

Since we are doing interpretation of the seven days of the creation story, here is my version. The bible puts creation 4000BC and I will agree with Paul's 1000 years = 1 day only it is literal from that start point. So we had 4 days up to the birth of Christ in 0 BC covering that 4000 years. This year being 2015 makes us 2 days into the last 3000 years and we all get judged and die in 3000 AD. There you go my own end of the world prediction based on the bible.

Paul, that is meant in good humour to show the issues with interpretation as I see it.


Edited by Orac (11/30/15 05:22 AM)
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#54882 - 11/30/15 01:25 PM Re: What Killed the Dinosaurs? [Re: Orac]
paul Offline
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Orac

up until the time that adam and eve ate the forbidden fruit
there was no time other than Gods time.

the bible states that God warned man that they would die
if they did eat of the forbidden fruit.

meaning that they would no longer live in Gods time
and that they would die , they did eat , and God drove them out of the garden.

obviously if they would not have eaten of the forbidden fruit
then they would have never died ... or God would have never told them that they would die if they did.

it was only after they did eat of the fruit of the tree of
the knowledge of good and evil that they fell from grace
by disobeying God , God then cursed them both , and cursed
the serpent and drove them out of the garden and at that
time adam and eve began to age , before they ate the
forbidden fruit there was no time other than Gods time.

cain and able were born after adam and eve ate the forbidden fruit which was after they began to age.

so cains age would be 1 year (our time) old for each year (our time) of aging.

so my interpretation is more accurate than current
interpretations of course and it does fit into the
records and date ranges found in the ground as fossil evidence.

ie ... the creation records found in the Bible and the
emergence of life records found in science do not conflict
with each other using my interpretation.


_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#54883 - 11/30/15 02:14 PM Re: What Killed the Dinosaurs? [Re: paul]
Bill Offline
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Posts: 1858
Loc: Oklahoma, USA
Originally Posted By: Paul
up until the time that adam and eve ate the forbidden fruit
there was no time other than Gods time.

Why?

Bill Gill
_________________________
C is not the speed of light in a vacuum.
C is the universal speed limit.

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#54884 - 11/30/15 02:31 PM Re: What Killed the Dinosaurs? [Re: Bill]
paul Offline
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Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4135
because there was no need for time as Gods time is eternal.
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3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#54885 - 11/30/15 02:40 PM Re: What Killed the Dinosaurs? [Re: Bill]
Orac Offline
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I agree Bill G it makes no sense and any writer would be aware it just causes confusion.

Second HUGE problem, the Earth was the centre of the universe to these people and they would have no concept of a different time. People were sentenced to death for daring to suggest that earth wasn't the centre of the universe or that anywhere else existed.

You want an example even in the 1600's what would happen to you read the background of Giordano Bruno (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giordano_Bruno).

People were stoned to death for very little, I mean good old Virgin Mary almost met that fate. The idea that the concept of a different sort of time appearing in a religious scripture I find highly dubious.

Paul, you are going to need to find some evidence to convince me that sounds more like modern wishful thinking.


Edited by Orac (11/30/15 02:42 PM)
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#54886 - 11/30/15 02:43 PM Re: What Killed the Dinosaurs? [Re: paul]
Orac Offline
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Registered: 05/20/11
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Originally Posted By: paul
because there was no need for time as Gods time is eternal.

Eternal is called eternal in the bible it is not translated to a specific time anywhere else as far as I know.

Care to show some other reference Eternal is turned to a specific time of days in the bible?


Edited by Orac (11/30/15 02:44 PM)
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I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.

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#54887 - 11/30/15 02:44 PM Re: What Killed the Dinosaurs? [Re: Orac]
paul Offline
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Posts: 4135
Orac , if you cant comprehend this then how are we supposed
to think that you CAN comprehend the fantasy that you are
currently engulfed in with quantum mechanics or whatever
fantasy science your currently admiring.

here , those don't even fit into it , try another one.

there's plenty to PICK from...

_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#54888 - 11/30/15 03:06 PM Re: What Killed the Dinosaurs? [Re: paul]
Orac Offline
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Registered: 05/20/11
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Loc: Currently Illinois, USA
Not sure what science and QM has to do with the current discussion or even dinosaurs, just seems to be a deflection response.

If you don't want to discuss that is fine, we are just asking for the justification ... sometimes faith is an acceptable answer.

I will extend one other piece of information, the Jewish clergy who have our document in question and study the language. Hebrew Scriptures, Professor Ginsberg says
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Louis_Ginsberg)

Quote:
“There is nothing in the first chapter of Genesis to justify the spiritualisation of the expression ‘day’. On the contrary, the definition given in verse 5 of the word in question imperatively demands that ‘yom’ should be understood in the same sense as we understand the word ‘day’ in common parlance, i.e. as a natural day.”

Not sure I can go against one of the foremost authorities on Historic Hebrew language.

On that issue, it sort of got me curious about modern creationist churches. Do you know if they employ special clergy like the Jewish do to study Hebrew and the original scripture text. Some religions do some amazing things, like the genealogy of the Mormon Church to try and connect the ancestry of every person on the planet and those outside the church are probably unaware of it.

On your side, I found a straight talking Young Earth preacher I like
Originally Posted By: Tim Chaffey
If the Bible plainly teaches that God made everything in six normal-length days approximately 6,000 years ago, then that is what He did, regardless of what the majority of modern scientists claim, particularly those doing historical (origins) science. God was there, and the scientists weren’t. He knows all things, and they don’t. He cannot lie or be mistaken, and they can (and often do or are). He has told us what He did in the beginning, while they must form hypotheses about the unobservable past based on incomplete information and a fatally flawed worldview.

I don't agree but with it but he makes sense and it comes down to a judgement call without trying to butcher science.


Edited by Orac (11/30/15 04:21 PM)
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#54889 - 11/30/15 07:13 PM Re: What Killed the Dinosaurs? [Re: Bill]
Bill S. Offline
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Loc: Essex, UK
OK, what are we discussing in this thread?

What killed the dinosaurs?
What’s wrong with evolution?
What’s right with creationism?
The meaning of Yom in the context of the Torah?
Whether the Bible has a precedent claim over other ancient scriptures to being the Word of God? Oops! No, that didn’t get off the ground.
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There never was nothing.

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#54890 - 11/30/15 07:17 PM Re: What Killed the Dinosaurs? [Re: Bill]
Bill S. Offline
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Registered: 08/20/10
Posts: 3570
Loc: Essex, UK
Originally Posted By: Orac

Eternal is called eternal in the bible it is not translated to a specific time anywhere else as far as I know.


Could be those who wrote the OT were aware that eternity is not a length of time.

I couldn't resist that one, could I? smile
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