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#54831 - 11/24/15 07:12 PM Re: What Killed the Dinosaurs? [Re: Bill]
Bill S. Offline
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Loc: Essex, UK
http://www.laboratoryequipment.com/news/...20&type=cta

Quote:
The new findings will challenge the earth sciences community as a whole to re-examine the causes of mass extinctions and the role of volcanism.


Looks as though there's still work to be done.
_________________________
There never was nothing.

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#54834 - 11/24/15 11:49 PM Re: What Killed the Dinosaurs? [Re: paul]
Bill Offline
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Registered: 12/31/10
Posts: 1858
Loc: Oklahoma, USA
But, would freshly hatched dinosaurs be able to walk aboard. The Bible says that the animals "came two by two". That implies they walked aboard by themselves. I expect baby dinosaurs would be something like fresh hatched birds. They can't do much of anything for themselves.

Bill Gill
_________________________
C is not the speed of light in a vacuum.
C is the universal speed limit.

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#54840 - 11/25/15 06:24 AM Re: What Killed the Dinosaurs? [Re: paul]
Orac Offline
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Registered: 05/20/11
Posts: 2819
Loc: Currently Illinois, USA
Originally Posted By: paul
in other words people who live a life of fantasy shouldn't question or poke fun at anything that others believe in.

I wasn't poking fun at it, but some obviously do and hence the sensitivity around it and I get that. I simply asked the question because of the way you were addressing the issues.

If your faith demands you believe certain things, that is fine just don't beat around and pretend you are even free to consider the alternatives.

I had the same issue when Rev K wanted to treat GOD scientifically. Fine then either tell GOD to show up so I can test him, and if you can't do that I will assume GOD doesn't exist and test the landscape. Rev K doesn't have the power to do the first, and the later is forbidden, so his request was illogical. Science can't discuss something you aren't free to consider all the options so I can't scientifically look at GOD with Rev K.

The bible itself could never have used the word dinosaur or even a translation of it, as the word was created by Sir Richard Owen in 1842. It means terrible lizzard or reptile and is a modern created word and in theory created long after the bible was written.

If you want to try and start creating situations like your egg, Bill G has already given you the problem that opens up, that the bible is therefore not accurate or omits things. My strong suggestion is to not go there and close the discussion on this as you are never going to be happy with that discussion.

For my part I am very straight down the line in what I believe and why. I really don't care what you or indeed every layman on the planet make of it, you are layman. Science doesn't vote on popularity, it's entire aim is to be useful and predictive and that is all it cares about. You are welcome not believe in science or write your own. Science just ignores you because we don't have to prove we are right, we just need to be more useful and predictive than your version and civilization makes the choice for us.

That is the bit you never get, science is not a system that requires people to believe like religion smile


Edited by Orac (11/25/15 07:09 AM)
_________________________
I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.

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#54841 - 11/25/15 06:20 PM Re: What Killed the Dinosaurs? [Re: Orac]
paul Offline
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Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4131
Quote:

I wasn't poking fun at it, but some obviously do and hence the sensitivity around it
and I get that. I simply asked the question because of the way you were addressing the issues.


I'm going to say that the below that you wrote was poking fun at the beliefs of others.

Quote:

What threw me the other week was one of the "new age" religion groups here in USA that had the
dinosaurs all drowning in Noah's flood a few thousand years ago. Apparently Noah either didn't
build a big enough Arc or God decided dinosaurs where wicked and evil and so they got there justice
like all the other sinners. There seemed to be oscillation about which of these was the reason.


I've already showed how it was done orac , noah popped the dinosaurs into a parallel universe
then popped them back after it was safe so that they wouldnt drown.
what is it about that that you cant comprehend?

Quote:

If your faith demands you believe certain things, that is fine just don't beat around and pretend
you are even free to consider the alternatives.


as far as I'm concerned my faith does not demand that I believe anything.
as far as I understand "faith" can not demand "belief" else faith would simply be belief.

Quote:

I had the same issue when Rev K wanted to treat GOD scientifically. Fine then either tell
GOD to show up so I can test him, and if you can't do that I will assume GOD doesn't exist
and test the landscape. Rev K doesn't have the power to do the first, and the later is
forbidden, so his request was illogical. Science can't discuss something you aren't free to
consider all the options so I can't scientifically look at GOD with Rev K.


fine then the next time you pop some fantasy entity into another parallel universe or
where ever you pop it tell it to show up so I can test it , and if you cant do that
I will continue to believe that you are actually a bull [censored] layman that calls people
layman to make himself feel important to his peers of bull [censored] laymen.

Quote:


The bible itself could never have used the word dinosaur or even a translation of
it, as the word was created by Sir Richard Owen in 1842. It means terrible lizzard
or reptile and is a modern created word and in theory created long after
the bible was written.


how do you know that the word dinosaur wasnt used before 1842? , adam could have named
their kind dinosaurs if they were there when he named all the animals.
a really large number of species become extinct each day , so its obvious that the dinosaurs
were already extinct when noah built the ark because moses didnt mention them when he wrote genesis
and nor did he include all the names of all the animals that entered the ark.

Quote:


If you want to try and start creating situations like your egg, Bill G has already given you the
problem that opens up, that the bible is therefore not accurate or omits things. My strong suggestion
is to not go there and close the discussion on this as you are never going to be happy with that discussion.


but its not my happiness that is in danger here orac , I am happy to discuss things with you even when
you fail to find a intelligent response to my post and start your consistent ranting about your goat god
that you always mention because I get a big laugh when you do that , it really shows your professionalism
being the non layman that you obviously are.

as for Bill G's response about the baby dinosaurs I've noticed that when a chick is hatched from its egg , it
doesnt just sit there for more than a few minutes if any , its eyes are open and it has pecked its way out of
its shell by itself , it then starts walking around in a few minutes finding and eating food ... by itself.
you can buy them from ebay sellers that are a day old --- no parents needed so yes they could have
walked onto the ark by themselves or the postman could have delivered them straight to the ark
with next day shipping from ebay.




Quote:

For my part I am very straight down the line in what I believe and why. I really don't care what you or
indeed every layman on the planet make of it, you are layman. Science doesn't vote on popularity, it's
entire aim is to be useful and predictive and that is all it cares about. You are welcome not believe
in science or write your own. Science just ignores you because we don't have to prove we are right, we
just need to be more useful and predictive than your version and civilization makes the choice for us.



well thank you orac , because if you are not a layman then I must be a layman and that is the group
of people that I would want to be associated with.

science doesnt ignore me , science listens to what I have to say.
almost everything that I say has been found to be true , it usually takes a few years to make it
to main stream and that of course depends on the popularity of what I say and who votes on it.

your the non layman that science either ignores or knows that what you say is simply
something that you read on the internet that someone else said in the past and you are simply
repeating other peoples thoughts and ideas , you are the bearer of lip service.

Quote:


That is the bit you never get, science is not a system that requires people to believe like religion

your right science is not a system it is a discipline.
science is supposed to be about experimentation , data gathering , and to acquire and to increase knowledge
but you and many others in the scientific community are certainly not scientist because all you do is
brag about how smart you are and pat each other on the back while quoting the nonsense that your peers
have dreamed up ... while you do nothing else except try to ridicule others who you and your like minded peers
dont agree with.

_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#54842 - 11/25/15 09:06 PM Re: What Killed the Dinosaurs? [Re: paul]
Bill Offline
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Registered: 12/31/10
Posts: 1858
Loc: Oklahoma, USA
The fact is that there is no list of the animals that were in the ark. The Bible just says that all the animals came. So we can't really make any definite statements about which ones were there and which weren't. Except that the Bible says they all came. That doesn't leave any animals to have been left behind. And the rest of the argument is about how likely the story of Noah and the Ark is.

We could get into another shouting match with one side saying the Bible is literally true, and the other side pointing out inconsistencies in the Bible story. This has been done over and over and there hasn't been any constructive outcome as far as I can tell.

I personally fall on the side that doesn't believe the Bible is literally true. It contains many stories that provide allegorical guidance in making our way through life. But to me that is its main use.

Trying to make the Bible fully describe the creation of the universe just doesn't work. It doesn't match the observations that many people have made over many years. Those observations have been checked and rechecked and even where there is some disagreement on details the overall story remains the same and is fully consistent with observations. And the observations have been made by many different people who have been observing many different things, in many different disciplines.

Most Creationists accept the Bible as containing the true story of the origin of the universe. This belief is based on no independent observations. While many Creationists claim to have scientific evidence that the Biblical story is true they have not so far come up with any unequivocal evidence. The fact is that the whole backing for the Creationist view of the universe is found in the Bible.

And in the mean time this topic has strayed far from the original subject which was the extinction of the dinosaurs.

Bill Gill
_________________________
C is not the speed of light in a vacuum.
C is the universal speed limit.

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#54843 - 11/26/15 12:51 AM Re: What Killed the Dinosaurs? [Re: Bill]
paul Offline
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Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4131
I agree that the op was not about religion , but questions were
asked so I provided my thoughts.

I cant in any way however agree with your comment below.

Quote:
The fact is that the whole backing for the Creationist view of the universe is found in the Bible.


in fact the thing that backed or enforced and continues to
back and enforce my beliefs about creation is the lack of any evidence that supports evolution.

everything just suddenly appeared and that simply is not evolution and looks a lot more like what creation would be.

it does not matter how many scientist or people like orac
believe in evolution , millions , billions , or gazillions
of believers will not change the fact that a belief in evolution is a faith based belief.

Darwin himself had a problem with evolution and as I remember
he noted in a book his words that point to creation as occurring before evolution occurred.

or something like that because he could only find fully formed animals in his explorations.

Quote:
Most Creationists accept the Bible as containing the true story of the origin of the universe. This belief is based on no independent observations.


I suppose you mean that there have been no scientist that
went back in time and observed creation.

then I also suppose that there have been scientist that went
back in time and observed evolution as it occurred.

otherwise your comment means nothing to me.

Quote:
While many Creationists claim to have scientific evidence that the Biblical story is true they have not so far come up with any unequivocal evidence.


the same exact thing can be said for evolution , there is
no evidence for evolution.

but the lack of evidence for evolution is evidence for
creation !!! isn't that the way that science moves?

and this is one of the places where science tries to
become a religion which is based on faith and not evidence.

unless science has found those animals that Darwin could not find you might be better off sticking to the things that science is suppose to do and refrain from making claims that you cannot prove.

but we should move away from this and continue with the op


_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#54844 - 11/26/15 03:59 AM Re: What Killed the Dinosaurs? [Re: paul]
Orac Offline
Megastar

Registered: 05/20/11
Posts: 2819
Loc: Currently Illinois, USA
Paul I don't know why you get upset ... no-one cares that much.

There are probably twenty people who frequent the site and nothing on this forum is going to change anyone's views.

Chill out it isn't worth the aggravation.

Let try a joke from Big Bang Theory to lighten it up along you pop in an out lines

Originally Posted By: big bang theory
So, a QM physicist goes to an ice cream parlor, and orders an ice cream sundae for himself and orders one for the empty stool sitting next to him. The owner asks him is he expecting company?

The QM physicist says, "Well, I am a QM physicist and *Quantum Mechanics* teaches us that it is possible for the matter above this stool to spontaneously turn into a woman who might accept my offering and fall in love with me."

The owner says, "Well lots of single, beautiful woman come in here everyday. Why don't you buy an ice cream for one of them and they might fall in love with you?"

And the QM physicist says, "Yeah, well what are the odds of that happening!"


Edited by Orac (11/26/15 05:57 AM)
_________________________
I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.

Top
#54846 - 11/26/15 02:58 PM Re: What Killed the Dinosaurs? [Re: Orac]
paul Offline
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Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4131
I'm not upset , its more like I'm disgusted with science.

particularly when people claiming to be scientist insist
that creation did not happen yet when confronted with
a logical question such as the Cambrian explosion they
then either change the subject or try to claim that evolution
started after all the fully formed animals were already here.

which is exactly what the evolutionist claim today because
they cannot find what is not there.

so instead of handling the Cambrian explosion in a scientific
manner they stop being scientific because they don't want to admit that creation was the only way that fully formed
animals could have just suddenly appeared on the earth and being proud scientist they continue by making claims that creation did not happen and they do this with no evidence that science can possibly support.

what do you think that the odds are that a single fully formed
animal complete with eyes , skeleton , legs , arms , respiratory system , digestive system , brain , etc ... etc ... etc ... etc ... etc ... could just pop into existence?

and then add to your popping equation all the other known
animal species from the Cambrian explosion that have been discovered that have absolutely no evolutionary connection to a animal that existed prior to the Cambrian explosion.

what would be the odds of creation being true?

to me creation isn't a faith based belief it is a
logic based belief that is not associated with faith.

to evolutionist evolution is a faith based belief that cannot
be associated with logic.

at the end of the day evolution causes science to become illogical and causes science to blend in with faith based
offshoots such as evolution that some claim as being scientific but are not.

religion is religion and science is science , religion
is faith based but science is not.

science is based on evidence.

therefore evolution is not science.


_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

Top
#54847 - 11/26/15 06:34 PM Re: What Killed the Dinosaurs? [Re: paul]
Bill Offline
Megastar

Registered: 12/31/10
Posts: 1858
Loc: Oklahoma, USA
As I said. The same old claims, and I could reply with the same old explanations of why Paul is wrong. But it really wouldn't do any good. Explaining things in a logical order to people who have already made up their minds and refuse to look at the facts is a useless endeavor.

Bill Gill
_________________________
C is not the speed of light in a vacuum.
C is the universal speed limit.

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#54848 - 11/27/15 01:50 PM Re: What Killed the Dinosaurs? [Re: Bill]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4131
why I'm wrong?

its obvious that you Bill already have your mind made up as well.

but the facts are that you based your belief in evolution
on faith.
faith requires no evidence and no evidence is what evolution
supplies to its believers.

evolution simply says look animals have changed since they
first appeared on the earth , and I caused them to appear.

and that proves that I am valid.

it is exactly like the momentum of a mass in motion saying look this mass has motion , and I caused that motion.

and that proves that I am valid.
_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

Top
#54849 - 11/27/15 04:18 PM Re: What Killed the Dinosaurs? [Re: paul]
Orac Offline
Megastar

Registered: 05/20/11
Posts: 2819
Loc: Currently Illinois, USA
Your wrong because your a religious fruitloop who now wants claim he is the authority on science and no one can be bothered arguing with a religious fruitloop ... pretty basic.

I am sure with your claiming of science authority is going to win over millions to your religion and make science extinct, ok maybe not. However I believe in you Paul and hence forth you will be called the saviour of GOD and the resurrector of GOD's true science. The Roman Catholics were the last to try and claim science and it didn't end well either smile

If I claimed to be an authority on GOD just watch how fast you would be complaining to Rose as I butcher the hell out of the poor little fellow.

Now take your religion bigoted mind and your GOD and leave the dinosaurs to drown in peace. Dinosaurs have feeling too you know ... ashes to ashes ... dust to dust ... AMEN laugh

Notice: To all the Greenies no Dinosaurs were harmed in the making of this post.


Edited by Orac (11/27/15 04:47 PM)
_________________________
I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.

Top
#54850 - 11/27/15 05:52 PM Re: What Killed the Dinosaurs? [Re: Orac]
Bill Offline
Megastar

Registered: 12/31/10
Posts: 1858
Loc: Oklahoma, USA
And the last 2 posts show just what is the problem with trying to have a discussion about evolution and creationism. Both sides tend to fall into fits and nothing is accomplished.

Bill Gill
_________________________
C is not the speed of light in a vacuum.
C is the universal speed limit.

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#54851 - 11/28/15 12:16 AM Re: What Killed the Dinosaurs? [Re: Orac]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4131
LOL , I really get a kick out of you guys tripping over yourselves about evolution , its like you want to have something other than bs to discuss evolution with but
there just isn't anything except bs that you can use.

now if evolution didn't make it look as if evolution
caused all the animals to appear and also didn't claim
that it wasn't creation then I wouldn't really have any problems with evolution itself.

but that's not the case , the evolutionist want evolution
to have been the creator of all the animals and evolution
cant create anything , not even a single grain of dirt to
use as the first building block to use while assembling all the species from dirt.

I guess when you livin in a fantasy you just got to keep the dream alive








_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

Top
#54852 - 11/28/15 02:29 AM Re: What Killed the Dinosaurs? [Re: paul]
Orac Offline
Megastar

Registered: 05/20/11
Posts: 2819
Loc: Currently Illinois, USA
Originally Posted By: Malala Yousafzai, I Am Malala: The Girl Who Stood Up for Education and Was Shot by the Taliban
“The boys learn the Quran by heart, rocking back and forth as they recite. They learn that there is no such thing as science or literature, that dinosaurs never existed and man never went to the moon.”

You aren't as far from Taliban, Al Qaeda and ISIS as you may think Paul ... GOD bless America smile

So what shall we do with the GOD's true science heathens and infidels?

Come on it's only a small step and we are unworthy !!!!


Edited by Orac (11/28/15 02:47 AM)
_________________________
I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.

Top
#54855 - 11/28/15 02:39 PM Re: What Killed the Dinosaurs? [Re: Orac]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4131
so are you saying that the boys are being taught things
that are wrong exactly like science teaches?

as in the teachings of science where evolution vs creation
is concerned when there is no evidence of evolution found
on the earth and the evidence of evolution can only be found in the minds of its followers.

yet the evidence for creation has been found by those who
have been unable to find any evidence for evolution.

so just how far away from the boys teachings would you say
that you are?

from what I have read what you have been taught is right in line with what you are complaining about.

learning scripture by heart is a tradition that has lasted
much longer than you may think and it is how events were
recorded before the written languages were invented.

as for the "no such science" bit , well I can see
that happening if science does not stop trying to become
a faith based religion , people are going to see science for what science shows them , even the gullible and the young
will eventually see that what science teaches is wrong.

and the "no such science" will be correct because science
requires people.

and as far as the "no such literature" bit , likewise what
has been found to be corrupted in science literature will
only be good as fuel for a fire.

as it stands we know that there were dinosaurs.

but if science continues to use faith as its base for
evidence then who knows , the future may replace what remains
of true science with a faith based religion of science that may indeed claim that it was the great god of evolution that made the rock structures found in the ground that resemble ancient animals that once lived on the earth.

Quote:
So what shall we do with the GOD's true science heathens and infidels?


well when you say "true science" to me that means "faith based science" so in that case we should give them shovels and let
them dig their grave.

and we did , and they have.

now you can lay down in the grave you have made for real science or you can attempt to fix it.



professor wakes up after his student ask questions.

_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

Top
#54856 - 11/28/15 05:20 PM Re: What Killed the Dinosaurs? [Re: paul]
Bill S. Offline
Megastar

Registered: 08/20/10
Posts: 3570
Loc: Essex, UK
Originally Posted By: Paul
learning scripture by heart is a tradition that has lasted much longer than you may think and it is how events were
recorded before the written languages were invented.


I have no intention of getting into this "endless" debate, but chances for nit-picking cannot always be passed up.

Scripture = things written down. How could there be scriptures "before the written languages were invented"?

Just wondering. smile
_________________________
There never was nothing.

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#54857 - 11/28/15 06:11 PM Re: What Killed the Dinosaurs? [Re: Bill S.]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4131
that's the point I was making , nothing was written down
until the written languages were invented.

but I get your point as well , what I was saying is that before
there was written language the people would learn the events
by heart ( memorized them ) as they were passed down from generation to generation.

but you got my point as well.

so the scriptures were contained in the memory of those
who were learning the scriptures by heart ( memory ) for
thousands if not hundreds of thousands of years until
the written languages became available and then the scriptures
were transferred to stone tablets and later to paper then
to tape drives then to hard drives then to cd's and dvd's
before being loaded into the ram memory in a computer and now they simply float around in the clouds waiting to be written
down on a computer screen or printed on a piece of paper
or etched in stone by a cnc machine.

I just thought of this , the cloud could be thought of as
being the memory of the earth...






_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

Top
#54858 - 11/28/15 06:15 PM Re: What Killed the Dinosaurs? [Re: Bill S.]
Bill Offline
Megastar

Registered: 12/31/10
Posts: 1858
Loc: Oklahoma, USA
I kind of hate to get back into this, but while there were no literal 'scriptures' before writing was invented there were plenty of oral traditions. They can count as 'scriptures' in the generic sense that they were the source of the written words. Every culture had its own creation myths that were passed down as oral traditions until they learned writing. The Australian Aborigines had their creation myths (the Song Time), Native Americans had theirs, the Japanese had theirs. In that sense there are plenty of scriptures around.

Well, I see Paul got in just ahead of me. He replied while I was composing this one.

Bill Gill


Edited by Bill (11/28/15 06:16 PM)
_________________________
C is not the speed of light in a vacuum.
C is the universal speed limit.

Top
#54859 - 11/28/15 06:31 PM Re: What Killed the Dinosaurs? [Re: Bill]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4131
right , so back tracking the global movements / migrations of these many peoples should lead back to the original place of origin.

I think this has been done using dna or genetics.

that place should either be where the creation of man occurred.
or
the place where evolution first evolved dirt into being
and then evolved that dirt into man.

common ancestry...






_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

Top
#54862 - 11/28/15 06:43 PM Re: What Killed the Dinosaurs? [Re: Bill]
Bill S. Offline
Megastar

Registered: 08/20/10
Posts: 3570
Loc: Essex, UK
Originally Posted By: Paul
but you got my point as well.


Of course I did, Paul, but some things are too good to miss, like pointing out that "original place of origin" is tautologous. It gets away from me some times. Take no notice. smile
_________________________
There never was nothing.

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