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#54423 - 09/07/15 04:35 PM Re: Black hole theory [Re: Blackholeinside]
Orac Offline
Megastar

Registered: 05/20/11
Posts: 2819
Loc: Currently Illinois, USA
Can you give me any links to where you have posted this on other forums I am really interested what they make of it.

I personally don't think anyone can help you as you flat refuse to at least study the basics. It's a case of just ignoring you, seems to be a thing with older males and science ... we won't miss you smile


Edited by Orac (09/07/15 05:09 PM)
_________________________
I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.

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#54424 - 09/07/15 04:59 PM Re: Black hole theory [Re: Orac]
Orac Offline
Megastar

Registered: 05/20/11
Posts: 2819
Loc: Currently Illinois, USA
Woah Dave did you just lie to me?

For curiosity I ran a search for "Dave Proffitt relativity" to see what others had made of you and I am getting this off a number of sites.

Quote:
Patrick Tam. I'm glad you banned him. I don't want to interact with dumb, noob, and [censored] people like Dave Proffitt

I really loved this description that would definitely fit you
Quote:
Naive Physics Proffitt

A different Dave Proffitt or something you want to explain?

I am not here to convert you, and I really am not fussed what you believe but I do ask for honesty or there is no point talking.


Edited by Orac (09/07/15 05:19 PM)
_________________________
I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.

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#54425 - 09/07/15 08:08 PM Re: Black hole theory [Re: Orac]
Blackholeinside Offline
Member

Registered: 02/15/15
Posts: 40
Loc: Kent, UK
Quote:
dumb, noob, and [censored]

Posters who use the same uncultured insults as yourself: you must feel at home there. For the record I have absolutely no recollection or record of ever posting there.
_________________________
Dave Proffitt
http://blackholeinside.co.uk

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#54426 - 09/07/15 11:53 PM Re: Black hole theory [Re: Blackholeinside]
Orac Offline
Megastar

Registered: 05/20/11
Posts: 2819
Loc: Currently Illinois, USA
I am going to try and be tactful here.

In your defense, your understanding is sort of comical to us, probably like 1+1=3 to you. So someone may have cross posted it thru the academia system as an example of humour especially given the colorful responses.

They have locked the threads so I can't access the original source but it could possibly be another site you have been banned off, perhaps just commenting on a science site. Do you comment on science sites like Scientific America etc?

So I believe you Dave, and can accept you were unaware.

As I said, this is the problem, you are going to destroy any academic reputation you had if you keep going down this track. You have become the butt of jokes and it isn't going to get any better.

Surely the obvious thing to do is actually knuckle down and study the subject correctly, and there are plenty of people willing to help but you need to listen. If a layman like Bill S who doesn't like mathematics can get thru it I am sure with your maths background you will rocket thru it. It isn't anywhere near as hard as it probably looks.

It isn't easy at the start because we first have to deal with all the tricks, shortcuts and hand waving we used in teaching science at a school level.

With what you are trying to understand your first step is to actually understand relativity not just say you agree with it. You have to stop trying to make time universe global you keep doing it making your earth reference frame time say something for everyone and everything in the universe

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_time_and_space
Quote:
The theory of relativity does not allow the existence of absolute time because of the nonexistence of absolute simultaneity

Your earth reference frame means nothing to something near the event horizon and the moment you say it does you violate relativity.

You agree the time dilation is massive (99.99999%) and therefore under relativity your observation from where you are standing is fine as an observation to you, but don't think that is what is actually happening locally at the point. You refer back to relativity does not allow the existence of absolute time there is too much going on between those two points in space and you need to take a frame much closer into the horizon.

We know the problem we sort of lead you to believe at school that time was the same everywhere. So what we now need you to understand is we lied because it makes teaching easier and for normal layman they don't need to know.

Your like the child we lead to believe in Father Christmas and now we are trying to correct it but you won't listen. That is why I am not sure we should lie in science at all to children, as much as it makes teaching the subject harder. For some people killing Father Christmas off when they have grown up becomes traumatic.

That is why you are becoming the butt of peoples jokes .... Father Christmas doesn't exist and nor does absolute time at least not in relativity.

You tell us about you earth based observation and we agree, we see that as well. Then you tell us that is is really happening "locally right there" look at my mathematics and we can't help but laugh because you really didn't get relativity at all (1+1=2 NOT 3).

So when you actually understand relativity, you need to put your observer right at the event horizon there simply is no other frame that will suffice because of the level of dilation. When you understand that you will be over your first hurdle and on your way. Bill S used to be like you if you ask him now I am pretty sure he will agree observer must be right near the EH. That is why every science paper on black holes does that frame.

Final comment ...
Originally Posted By: Dave Proffitt
I know that some of you are reading what I say, but even if you think it is all rubbish, I would still like to hear from you.

If you don't like the answers I suggest you drop the pretense and remove the incitement from your forum, facebook and blog.


Edited by Orac (09/08/15 05:52 AM)
_________________________
I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.

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#54428 - 09/08/15 09:01 PM Re: Black hole theory [Re: Blackholeinside]
Bill S. Offline
Megastar

Registered: 08/20/10
Posts: 3570
Loc: Essex, UK
Originally Posted By: Dave
In physics we have the case of conductivity of superconductors becoming infinite. Of course we will never have enough time to check the validity of this statement. This example does show that infinities for all practical purposes, do occur in physics.


I have not had time to read much of your work, Dave, but no one will be surprised that I started by looking at infinity. smile

Could you say a bit more about the logic of this quote?
_________________________
There never was nothing.

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#54429 - 09/08/15 09:40 PM Re: Black hole theory [Re: Blackholeinside]
Bill S. Offline
Megastar

Registered: 08/20/10
Posts: 3570
Loc: Essex, UK
Originally Posted By: Orac
Can I ask Bill S at what point did it all drop into place and start making sense?


Not an easy one to answer, Orac. I sometimes lose track of when I am playing devil's advocate, and when not. smile
_________________________
There never was nothing.

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#54430 - 09/08/15 09:50 PM Re: Black hole theory [Re: Blackholeinside]
Bill S. Offline
Megastar

Registered: 08/20/10
Posts: 3570
Loc: Essex, UK
BTW, Orac, I just found a quote that might help you to sort out which descriptions to use, and when.

"Ignorance can be educated, crazy can be medicated, but there’s no cure for stupid". laugh
_________________________
There never was nothing.

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#54431 - 09/09/15 12:13 AM Re: Black hole theory [Re: Orac]
Amaranth Rose II Offline

Superstar

Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 962
Loc: Southeast Nebraska, USA
I tend to err on the basis of free speech. Unless a post is blatantly obnoxious or offensive to many I will generally tend to let it stand. Everyone has the right to their own point of view. I don't know beans about particle physics, but I will defend the right to talk about them in this forum. It appears you are trying to be king of the sandbox and kick out all others who disagree with you. This forum is meant to foster questioning and free discussion of thoughts. I don't have any insight as to whether Dave is making an intelligent presentation or something egregiously stupid. But while he is here I expect him to be treated with the same respect as other forum members, and not labelled negatively or called names. If you can't respect others' rights to be heard, don't post a response. You may think you know everything and others know nothing, but don't act like it. Don't be rude or impolite on the forum. Even if you think someone is dumb as a rock, it's not nice to say that, they have something to say and the right to say it. This forum doesn't have so many posters that we can afford to offend anyone who is trying to carry on seriously. If people are misguided, lead them, but don't insult them. It would be a good idea if you can learn to lead without using disparaging comments and insults. A more positive attitude and courtesy will go a long way to helping this forum stay open as a place for free discussion of practically anything at all. And your English is improving. :-)
_________________________
If you don't care for reality, just wait a while; another will be along shortly. --A Rose


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#54432 - 09/09/15 06:15 AM Re: Black hole theory [Re: Amaranth Rose II]
Orac Offline
Megastar

Registered: 05/20/11
Posts: 2819
Loc: Currently Illinois, USA
I am trying very hard to improve my English and what people sometimes see as rude is actually poor word choice. I fell foul of that earlier in this discussion. I have been told I come across very blunt and forceful, to me it just reads what it is supposed to say, tone in language for someone it isn't natural and I find very hard.

With Dave I looked at his idea tried, to get him to see the problems and when it was obvious he was never going to actually look the problems just fix the one obvious false claim. I actually could not care a less what Dave believes my problem was he was blatantly breaking relativity and claiming he wasn't.

Sorry that is a bit like claiming you are Jewish but you eat pork and attend Muslim church services, it is pretty black and white.

I then quizzed him about surely he had been told this by other people. I can't have been the only one who noticed and generally on a science site it gets you banned. So I was trying to be less confrontational and it wasn't just me being picky. I should have done the search first but he was so convincing, well you know the rest it blew up in my face.

I hope you noticed I even tried to just post my reasons for leaving the conversations, ignore him and walk away but that just made him more cross at me.

My problem I am having with your post above is are we a science forum and this a physics section or is it something else?

Originally Posted By: AR2
A more positive attitude and courtesy will go a long way to helping this forum stay open as a place for free discussion of practically anything at all

Okay sorry I wasn't aware of that change from a physics forum you caught me with that one.

On an actual physics forum a moderator would have told him please don't make that claim it is blatantly wrong. Presumably he would accept that or leave and I saw that on other sites when I followed the search. I am sorry, I can't accept a physics forum that can't and won't make even the most black and white criteria of science and this will descend into chaos.

I have no intention of being the Jew that is arguing with the pork eating Muslims that they aren't Jewish.

I will therefore say my goodbye to all.

Bill S good luck with your quest to mysteries and infinities of life smile

My parting suggestion for you Bill S is follow the first 20 min of this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=971&v=p1k3XKfl0CQ


Edited by Orac (09/09/15 06:21 AM)
_________________________
I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.

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#54433 - 09/09/15 10:10 AM Re: Black hole theory [Re: Blackholeinside]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
As Gracchus said of Crassus (Spartacus, 1960): "He'll be back"
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

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#54437 - 09/14/15 07:51 AM Re: Black hole theory [Re: Orac]
Amaranth Rose II Offline

Superstar

Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 962
Loc: Southeast Nebraska, USA
I am not a physicist. I cannot judge whether a post is right or wrong in its theoretical grounding. I just meant that the forum is open to anyone who wants to discuss physics and whatever the source it is not good to whack at people without telling them why they are wrong. If you have a logical argument why someone is wrong, put it forth. Just don't start calling names and hurling insults in with the debunking. I'm sorry if I didn't phrase it the best I could have. I certainly expect this Physics forum to stick to Physics topics. Other topics can be discussed on other branches of the forum. Just stick to debunking, and leave out the personal comments. That's what I mean when I ask for respect. I don't mean that bunk theories are to be unchallenged. Just do it with some courtesy and don't call anyone a name you would not want to be called yourself.

I'm not a professional moderator, I didn't go to moderator school. I'm learning this by the seat of my pants, and am having some rather intense personal events right now. I mean to say that I want to run this forum as a polite place where people can post their theories and have them politely discussed and the merits tested. By all means point out fallacious theories and correct the incorrect points as they stand. Just don't get personal.
_________________________
If you don't care for reality, just wait a while; another will be along shortly. --A Rose


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#54444 - 09/15/15 05:16 PM Re: Black hole theory [Re: Blackholeinside]
Bill S. Offline
Megastar

Registered: 08/20/10
Posts: 3570
Loc: Essex, UK
AR11, I think the world of scientific discussion forums badly needs a forum like SAGG, where serious discussion is tempered with humour, and where posters are not promptly banned or even warned as soon as they step outside conventional science, or occasionally lose their cool. On another forum, I was warned because I posted an astronomy question under physics.

I fully support what you say in your last post, but feel I need to ask if it might not be rather poor timing? Could be we were just beginning to get somewhere?
_________________________
There never was nothing.

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#54636 - 11/03/15 08:01 PM Re: Black hole theory [Re: Bill S.]
Blackholeinside Offline
Member

Registered: 02/15/15
Posts: 40
Loc: Kent, UK
Hi
After the last bout of insults I decided that I needed to watch my blood pressure and depart permanently. I came back to see if anything had changed and there are glimmering of that happening.
I do take all of the criticisms (even the ones couched as insults) on board, mostly by clarifying the wording used on my website and elsewhere.
I have yet to see anything that would persuade me yet that my thinking is wrong; I will keep looking/thinking until I can see a flaw in what I am claiming.
The comment that other forums will not tolerate anything that is off message is correct. I am glad to see you (AR11) have a more liberal approach. It is to be commended.
_________________________
Dave Proffitt
http://blackholeinside.co.uk

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#54661 - 11/05/15 06:28 PM Re: Black hole theory [Re: Blackholeinside]
Bill S. Offline
Megastar

Registered: 08/20/10
Posts: 3570
Loc: Essex, UK
Welcome back Dave. Now I'm going to have to find time to remind myself of the main points of your theory.
_________________________
There never was nothing.

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#56610 - 02/21/18 08:36 PM Re: Black hole theory [Re: Blackholeinside]
Blackholeinside Offline
Member

Registered: 02/15/15
Posts: 40
Loc: Kent, UK
Thanks, Bill S.
I do keep checking from time to time but have nothing new to report as yet. Time is much more taken up in caring for my wife, of late, and although I have a few ideas germinating, none yet complete.
There are flaws in my theory and flaws in the existing theory. The choice seems to come down to philosophy, in my opinion. I will return when I have something definite to add. Dave.
_________________________
Dave Proffitt
http://blackholeinside.co.uk

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