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#53329 - 11/06/14 03:44 PM German scientists prove there is life after death
Tutor Turtle Offline
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_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#53330 - 11/06/14 10:03 PM Re: German scientists prove there is life after death [Re: Tutor Turtle]
Bill S. Offline
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TT, you do realise that worldnewsdailyreport.com is a parody news site, don't you?

Even if that were not the case, all they would have established is that people who are not really dead report things they believe are memories from the period when they were in a drug induces state.
_________________________
There never was nothing.

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#53334 - 11/07/14 01:30 AM Re: German scientists prove there is life after death [Re: Bill S.]
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Damn.. I hate when that happens! grin
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#53336 - 11/07/14 03:45 PM Re: German scientists prove there is life after death [Re: Tutor Turtle]
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http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence10.html

Here's an interesting tale..
George Rodonaia wasn't drugged, and he was frozen in a Russian morgue for three days before coming back to life.
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#53338 - 11/07/14 11:05 PM Re: German scientists prove there is life after death [Re: Tutor Turtle]
Bill S. Offline
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Like "nothing" and "infinity", death seems to have acquired shades of meaning.

If you are dead, how can you have a "near death experience"?
_________________________
There never was nothing.

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#53341 - 11/08/14 01:11 AM Re: German scientists prove there is life after death [Re: Tutor Turtle]
Ellis Offline
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I'm glad it is a parody!

But the clue was that the dead people weren't really dead! Nearly dead---yes, but not quite, so asking questions of a living person about what it is like to be dead is rather foolish. Because they are not dead. If they were they would not be speaking because they are dead.

When we are an X-person we have no more input into philosophical debate, because we are dead. Unless we believe the dead are not in fact dead but are frolicking somewhere, with varying degrees of comfort.

It's all to do with the belief, -again.

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#53342 - 11/08/14 03:31 AM Re: German scientists prove there is life after death [Re: Tutor Turtle]
Bill S. Offline
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Good to see you posting again, Ellis (or have I just not been seeing your posts?). I thought you had gone walkabout in the outback, or whatever Australians do when the want to vanish. smile
_________________________
There never was nothing.

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#53346 - 11/08/14 02:35 PM Re: German scientists prove there is life after death [Re: Tutor Turtle]
Amaranth Rose II Offline

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Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 962
Loc: Southeast Nebraska, USA
Ellis, Welcome back! Good to see you again!

My mother reported having a near-death experience in 1976 when she had a pulmonary embolism and almost died. She said it was like she was sitting on the windowsill looking over at the body on the bed, reading the monitors that were hooked up to her, and she said she felt a great, warm light behind her. She turned around and looked into the light and saw 2 figures standing there. One was her father, who'd been dead a number of years at that time. She says they told her that she couldn't come now, that I still needed her. Then she said she got up and went over to the bed and got back in her body. She said when she was on the windowsill she felt at peace, and there was no pain or unpleasant sensation.

I have never been that close to death myself, yet.
_________________________
If you don't care for reality, just wait a while; another will be along shortly. --A Rose


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#53348 - 11/08/14 04:42 PM Re: German scientists prove there is life after death [Re: Bill S.]
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Originally Posted By: Bill S.
Like "nothing" and "infinity", death seems to have acquired shades of meaning.

If you are dead, how can you have a "near death experience"?

Validity in testimony seems to come from the living, who are revisiting an experience they are not having anymore. Hence the near death experience, regardless of the testimony or experience of what is claimed to be had while clinically dead.

Interestingly it opens the door to speculation of time and what the conscious mind can experience in a short amount of time, and the complexity of consciousness itself.
A person can dream and experience what could be conceived of as long stretches of time with an accumulation of complex experiences.
What a scientist can observe with mechanical instruments only covers the moments of brain activity while the subject is observed as either conscious or unconscious. One can only surmise (from the doctor/scientists point of view) having a "near patient experience" what could be transpiring as a result of the neural activity,.. or lack of it.
Originally Posted By: Ellis


It's all to do with the belief, -again.


Good point! All that science surmises in the laboratory with the physical senses and the instruments fashioned by the physical senses, is influenced by personal belief.
The theory of relativity is subject to the individual regardless of any theory that there are any constants in what is being observed or any constant that must be maintained within the observer.

Being tho (interestingly enough) that the hundreds of testimonies are similar, regardless of personal beliefs, educational degrees and or scientific theory, I find it fascinating that a majority can find resolution by democratic process which follows an authority that has no proof one way or another.

Surely the meaning of life/death is meant to be explored by the individual experiencing, it rather than for humanity to subscribe to an authority that stands outside of it and observes it in disbelief, or from a prescribed belief system that doesn't fit everyone or appeal to everyone.

Belief surely influences the way we observe things. It blinds us to reality as it did for many who believed the world was flat, regardless of the spherical earth that wasn't experienced.

When you take a stand on something when you have no experience of what you speak, that is belief.
When you argue against something that others have expressed an experience or relationship to from belief, it seems a bit irrational.

I find that the original article makes a parody of a the subjective controversy created when decisions are made about reality influenced by belief, and proselytized by those attached to an assumed authority without proof or experience of any absolutes.

I found it interesting that a Russian scientist had an experience of God and gave testimony to the experience.

No doubt it has found its way into the realm of disbelief and shares the floor with events like the moon landing when it comes to debates between those who would make their personal testimonies to what is and isn't real.
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#53350 - 11/09/14 07:54 AM Re: German scientists prove there is life after death [Re: Tutor Turtle]
Ellis Offline
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Hello again! Nothing spectacular happening, but the discussions went REALLY hard to follow for mere mortals, though I do drop in from time to time. and as you will see, I am interested in this topic.

I have had a NDE in which I did the floating and looking down thing, and then I drifted into an adjoining corridor/room where my hours old child was trying to get a grip on the rest of her life. I recollect a nurse saying that my baby would be OK because so had her eyes open and they were beautiful. I later confirmed that she was in an adjoining area. I was conscious of wanting to rest, but I knew I wanted to meet this little person more than anything else, and I battled back to where I lay, flat out to everything and everything hurting and lots of people. I did meet my child 3 days later,. she is now 46, and a lovely successful intelligent woman! And me, well I had 2 more healthy children!

Later, when I had recovered, and able to think again, I remarked to my husband that I had not thought to pray, or bargain to 'go back' or etc. It was then I realised that I really did not believe that I had entered any sort of afterlife. I was just very ill indeed, and possibly, without the motivation of my new child, I would have given in the the compulsion to rest, and I was aware that would have been final. I also realised that I REALLY didn't believe in a god, something I had always suspected!

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#53351 - 11/09/14 03:19 PM Re: German scientists prove there is life after death [Re: Ellis]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Generally speaking, what spiritual science depicts as reality, is what you experienced.
Awareness of your conscious Self (albeit less burdened by the attachments to where you lay yourself) is what settles into temporary identities of physical limitation, but then survives its passing.
After/before.. its relative to the idea of time.

The fact that you met the child before seeing it with your physical eyes accounts for the freedom of consciousness aside from the constraints of belief.
Returning to the boundaries and constraints of belief (your personal beliefs) set you in what you determined was your right state of mind. At least by your testimony to the confirmation of the child you so eagerly tried to meet while outside of you "right" state of mind.

Interesting that you say you realized you didn't believe in God. Did you conceive of such an idea of God on your own before realizing it didn't exist? Or is what you decided doesn't exist, any or all such labels or notions outside of what you haven't yet conceived of on your own.

Like those who decided the world was flat.., by your free will and the boundaries of the ego, you set the filters of sensory perception. That will, determines what you see, touch and feel, and that which you will keep and or what you will discard as illusion.
It's going to be unique to each individual regardless of whether there are similarities within the herd mentality of social mores.
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#53353 - 11/09/14 06:10 PM Re: German scientists prove there is life after death [Re: Tutor Turtle]
Bill Offline
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Registered: 12/31/10
Posts: 1858
Loc: Oklahoma, USA
Originally Posted By: Tutor Turtle
Like those who decided the world was flat.., by your free will and the boundaries of the ego, you set the filters of sensory perception.

But those who decided that the world was flat based their idea on the obvious observation that it is flat. That is the most obvious explanation for the world appearing the way it does. The ancient Greeks determined that the world was round by making careful observations and realizing that a lot of the things they saw couldn't be explained by a flat earth. This was based on such things as the observation of the shadow of the Earth on the moon during Lunar eclipses and the way ships disappeared from the bottom up as they went over the horizon. After the fall of the Roman empire most of this knowledge was lost to Europe and so they went back to the obvious explanation. And that explanation worked for the vast majority of people until the ancient knowledge was regained. Then it became valuable to the explorers that were venturing into the oceans on voyages of discovery. And to find a source of spices.

Bill Gill
_________________________
C is not the speed of light in a vacuum.
C is the universal speed limit.

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#53354 - 11/10/14 02:15 AM Re: German scientists prove there is life after death [Re: Bill]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bill

But those who decided that the world was flat based their idea on the obvious observation that it is flat.


There was an authority which also influenced the mindset of the flat earth idea. It created fear and superstition around what would happen if you were to sail to the edge of the earth.

Based on the limits of the outward physical senses and what one takes for granted as reality by observation we have learned there are things that exceed the limits of those physical senses. We couldn't see germs but then once we imagined they were there...
The germ theory was proposed in the mid-16th century and gained widespread credence when substantiated by scientific discoveries of the 17th through the late 19th century. It supplanted earlier explanations for disease.

Like the discovery of the wheel all potential discoveries exist in time and space waiting for someone to lift their awareness beyond the current constraints of belief to realize the reality of what exists in potential but hasn't revealed itself to the physical senses.

Belief has a lot to do with holding awareness to constants in relative systems of comprehension and the manifestation of those thoughts.

Without understanding, what isn't understood or that which exceeds belief, becomes fair target for the fear and superstition that becomes destructive, since it (the unknown) threatens the peace of mind of the complacent individual.
How many times have you heard, "I'm old and set in my ways." or "I'm too old to walk the path of patience and introspection that was the path of my youth."?

It wasn't that long ago that people were burning people at the stake for being witches, or being black and progressive enough to have an opinion which clashed with the authority.

Nowadays it's all done thru the media. People use the internet as well as the broadcasting system of cable and satellite t.v. to push judgment and criticism as a necessity for survival, and preach fear as a natural part of experiencing life. Then the push for the authority is made to be the savior of man from fear. What the Church took charge of in the direction of life and the dictates of life's meaning, has now been given to government and the media.

People, for generations either become sheeple or they become self aware. Aware of something bigger than belief and its boundaries of limitation, fear, and shortsighted judgment, and bigger than the ego and its ideas of self that are based on a collection of personal experiences isolated from a much broader experience base, than the limited personal experience of what is simply seen heard or touched by the limited outward oriented senses.

Todays man bases their reality on what they see, hear and understand. Man is taught to accept what he/she is told by the authority, rather than to explore infinite possibilities and to gain the personal experience of those things yet unexplained or taken for granted as impossible.

There are those who can achieve the same NDE's of those claimed to be clinically dead simply by directing the senses inward thru meditation.
Those few who open the mind to more than relative absolutes are generally the ones making the discoveries which are first laughed at but then become mainstream.
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#53356 - 11/10/14 05:30 AM Re: German scientists prove there is life after death [Re: Amaranth Rose II]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Originally Posted By: Amaranth Rose II
Ellis, Welcome back! Good to see you again!

My mother reported having a near-death experience in 1976 when she had a pulmonary embolism and almost died.

She said it was like she was sitting on the windowsill looking over at the body on the bed, reading the monitors that were hooked up to her, and she said she felt a great, warm light behind her.

She turned around and looked into the light and saw 2 figures standing there. One was her father, who'd been dead a number of years at that time. She says they told her that she couldn't come now, that I still needed her.

Then she said she got up and went over to the bed and got back in her body. She said when she was on the windowsill she felt at peace, and there was no pain or unpleasant sensation.

I have never been that close to death myself, yet.

==================================================
Amaranth Rose II] and Ellis:
MY NEAR DEATH EXPERIENCE WAS A VERY SOMATIC ONE--the doctor in charge of the lab called me and said, "I called you because your hemoglobin is in the 20s--so low that you ought to be in a coma at this point. Get transfusions as soon as you can. Willpower is an amazing force, but not if you are in a coma...."

Thanks to Dr.Rona for getting a lab test done on what was going on with my extremely low energy. I also thank him for taking the time to work with Jean and me in our old, i.e, gerontological age--Senescence begins, and middle age ends, the day your descendants outnumber your friends.


INFORMATION ABOUT Dr. Zoltan Rona: http://highlevelwellness.ca/dr-rona/

www.highlevelwellness.ca

=========================
I told Zoltan: Thanks to your diagnosis, tomorrow (that was Oct. 24), I plan to go to the emergency ward of The Mackenzie Health Centre, which I hear is a much improved version of the old York Central. More details below
===========
Latest News:

A WEEK AT THE MACKENZIE HEALTH CENTRE, MARKHAM, ONTARIO--a great place to be when ill

http://mackenziehealth.ca/

======================

By the way, last Friday, October 24, early evening--having been diagnosed with having hematuria (blood in the urine), which caused me to have dangerously low hemoglobin, plus serious edema in the lower body and legs, which and caused me to feel extremely exhausted.
===========================
It was at this point that I decided to call an ambulance.

Efficiently, I was soon delivered to the EMERGENCY WING of MHC. Just as efficiently, I was soon admitted, by the nurse and the doctor (Bose) in charge and taken to my bed, until a room would be available in the main hospital. What a relief! Even more relief came, when the room became available.

From then on, there was a whole series of procedures--blood tests, CAT and MRI scans, monitoring my vital signs, ultra sound and the like, plus five BLOOD TRANSFUSIONS.

Thankfully, the 5 transfusions raised my hemoglobin level to normal. Because of this, I was allowed to leave the hospital, early this afternoon, about 2:00 pm. Next Tuesday I will go back for day-surgery. A urologist wants to check and see just what caused the hematuria--blood in my urine. My urine was quite clear a few minutes ago. Good! Right now, I feel strong and well!
=========

What a joy it is to be back with my wife, Jean--we just finished a delicious dinner at 8:00 pm--a retired teacher. Our first posting was to Goose Bay, Labrador. She taught, while I "praught" smile (that is, as a minister, I preached).

In addition, we actually helped the 2 nurses at the local mission nursing station. We also organized the first council of Happy Valley, then a squatter's town. The area--Happy Valley Goose-bay--now has nearly 8.000 people and is thriving because of development going on in the north. Yes, we helped found a town.

BTW, we married in September 1952. I was 22, she was 6 months older. What an interesting life we have had, thank

G O D--that which Generates, Organizes and Delivers all that Good, Optimistic and Delightful.
===============================
BTW, while in MHC, I had the time to read two books I mention here, in detail, and to makes notes of

[b]1. THE PRACTICE OF INTEGRAL PHILOSOPHY[/b]--on self, in harmony with and with the help of others.

2. INTEGRAL CHRISTIANITY--the spirit's call to evolve:
http://www.revpaulsmith.com/-- LOTS OF HELPFUL INFORMATION HERE.

I used this info to help myself and others I met--many in serious need of help--In MHC who expressed interest--I was amazed many, including doctors and staff were.

Having read book mentioned, thoroughly, and filled them with many notes, I chose NOT to push the info at people.

Hospital staff members and patients--Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Atheists, Agnostics, etc.--were all very curious and asked many questions.Many expressed the desire to learn how to do PNEUMATHERAPY. It, the basic principles and techniques, can be taught in less the five minutes.

For me, it was lots of fun watching people, including myself, become more and more open and healthier--spiritually, mentally and somatically--

Be AWARE!!! The PNEUMA-PSYCHO-SOMATIC powers can be used to do good or ill--the choice is ours. IN MY OPINION, PNEUMA-PSYCHO-SOMATIC WHOLENESS AND WELLNESS IS THE GOAL!
==============================
Integrally and holistically yours, the effect of which I can now say:

Hey! I really did learn that we can evolve, get stronger and better, quickly. IT WAS A GOOD EXPERIENCE!!! which I can highly recommend.
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#53358 - 11/10/14 02:19 PM Re: German scientists prove there is life after death [Re: Revlgking]
Bill Offline
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Registered: 12/31/10
Posts: 1858
Loc: Oklahoma, USA
Originally Posted By: Revlgking
What a joy it is to be back with my wife, Jean--we just finished a delicious dinner at 8:00 pm--a retired teacher.

Do retired teachers taste better than working teachers? Inquiring minds want to know.

Congratulations on your recovery. May you have many more years to enjoy all the other retired teachers you can catch.

Bill Gill
_________________________
C is not the speed of light in a vacuum.
C is the universal speed limit.

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#53359 - 11/10/14 02:28 PM Re: German scientists prove there is life after death [Re: Tutor Turtle]
Bill Offline
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Registered: 12/31/10
Posts: 1858
Loc: Oklahoma, USA
Originally Posted By: Tutor Turtle

There was an authority which also influenced the mindset of the flat earth idea. It created fear and superstition around what would happen if you were to sail to the edge of the earth.

If you believe in a flat earth then you don't need to have an authority to create fear and superstition. They are both natural because people want to understand how things work. If there is no obvious explanation then people use their minds to create explanations. The explanations that are created just have to have some minimal plausibility to be accepted. If the Earth is flat then there must be an edge, so bad things can happen at that edge. From that the tendency to embroider stories to make them more exciting can be depended on to create full fledged superstitions.

Bill Gill
_________________________
C is not the speed of light in a vacuum.
C is the universal speed limit.

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#53360 - 11/10/14 04:00 PM Re: German scientists prove there is life after death [Re: Revlgking]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Originally Posted By: Revlgking
[quote=Amaranth Rose II] Ellis, Welcome back! Good to see you again! ...
Ellis, I second Amaranth's motion:

==============================
THE FOLLOWING IS WHAT I INTENDED TO POST about the work of Paul R. Smith. All branches of INTEGRALITY owe a lot to the extensive work of Ken Wilber. Here is his BIO:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Wilber
:
===================
https://www.integrallife.com/contributors/paul-smith

About the book INTEGRAL CHRISTIANITY---The Spirit's Call to evolve.
BE AWARE. The XNTY mentioned here is not the narrow, exclusive and fundamentalist,kind; it is very progressive and open to having creative dialogues with all religions based on and

====================================================
Integrally and holistically yours, the effect of which I can now say:

Hey! I really did learn that we can evolve, get stronger and better, quickly. In this sense, IT WAS A GOOD EXPERIENCE!!! which worked for me.






Edited by Revlgking (11/10/14 06:25 PM)
Edit Reason: Always helpful
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#53361 - 11/10/14 04:03 PM Re: German scientists prove there is life after death [Re: Bill]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Registered: 06/19/08
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Originally Posted By: Bill

If you believe in a flat earth then you don't need to have an authority to create fear and superstition.
They are both natural because people want to understand how things work. If there is no obvious explanation then people use their minds to create explanations.
The most obvious of explanations coming from where the mind sits in belief and experience.
Originally Posted By: Bill
The explanations that are created just have to have some minimal plausibility to be accepted. If the Earth is flat then there must be an edge, so bad things can happen at that edge. From that the tendency to embroider stories to make them more exciting can be depended on to create full fledged superstitions.
Bill Gill

Yep. And as long as the senses are trained to go outward giving dependence to what can be seen heard or touched, coupled with the tendency to embroider and add excitement to what is seen or not seen, heard or not heard, touched or not touched, we as human beings allow ourselves to see, hear and experience anything we wish to make our personal truth, regardless of any truth bigger than the embellished belief.

Science likes to use peer review as a safety mechanism, but then scientists are just as human as non-scientists with their own prejudices, beliefs and fears, which are taught to them by their parents, peers and the educational systems that are in place during their development. All systems of public opinion and education rely on the outward driven senses. Morality is a matter of democratic process given to the social mores of the individuals country, religious backgrounds and government influence.
Individuality is seemingly practiced by the young to express uniqueness in a world where everyone seems to fall into a system that absorbs the individual. Every generation has its examples, both in testimony to individuality and to the system. The younger generations complain about the system and the older generations complain about the young, who "buck the system" created by those who feel their understanding and wisdom concerning reality is superior.
Some of those older folks just love to go on and on about the past because their future doesn't look like it stretches very far, so all the focus is on their memories and cherished self defined glories.. Like the reverend wink

Not much has changed in this out-picturing of the herd mentality over human history. Belief, once it becomes set into place steers the mind towards the past impressions and experiences, whereas those less influenced by the past have a much more open mind and a vision with less impressions of fear and superstition.

There are more inventions/discoveries to be realized and brought into view, but if the minds of men are closed by the walls of belief they (those new discoveries) will wait until someone gives a bit to allow the inner senses to re-cognize that which has always been but hasen't yet been acknowledged for the fear of the unknown or unnatural and/or the belief systems which feel threatened by change and the opposing thought in definition of personal reality.

The ego has a great testimony to self definition: "I am the sum total of my experience." It leaves no room for any other possibility of being than what it builds from memory. Pretty much the prescription of life being taught to our children, is derived from this belief. We might as well tell them from the start that we believe they are nothing, until they accumulate enough experience to define themselves, or.. they are nothing until defined by their peers who have defined themselves and reality.
The reverend is a great example of that rule.

If every atom is 99.99% empty space, what exactly is it that we see, hear and feel?
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#53362 - 11/10/14 04:46 PM Re: German scientists prove there is life after death [Re: Bill]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Quote:
=Bill]
Originally Posted By: Revlgking
What a joy it is to be back with my wife, Jean--we just finished a delicious dinner at 8:00 pm--a retired teacher.

Do retired teachers taste better than working teachers? Inquiring minds want to know.

Congratulations on your recovery. May you have many more years to enjoy all the other retired teachers you can catch.

Bill Gill
Bill, your amusing comment about my "taste" for teachers reminds me of the Cannibal family, who simply "loved" people.

At their favourite Cannibal Restaurant, the Cannibals were shocked to find that the menu showed that--no matter what dish they fancied--the prices had doubled. They had jumped to twice that for teachers, preachers, engineers, and so on.

When they queried the head waiter as to why this was so, he explained: "WELL! After we did an extensive audit with the "help" of expensive accountants--like those used by the government... we finally found the problem. Politicians are so full of, "you know what", we discovered we had to use specialists--lots of them at twice the cost in wages ... and all agreed: Getting them clean enough to eat--especially come elections--is not an easy task."

In unison, Mr. and Mrs. Cannibal and family responded, "Now we understand, thanks!" The whole room joined in having a BIG laugh laugh laugh laugh ...."
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#53363 - 11/10/14 05:42 PM Re: German scientists prove there is life after death [Re: Bill S.]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Originally Posted By: Bill S.
TT, you do realise that worldnewsdailyreport.com is a parody news site, don't you? ...
PARODY?--oddly parallel? Sounds like the kind TT finds true and enjoyable, eh! There are always those who amuse themselves by imitating, poorly.
===============================
Humorous (if we are lucky) imitations of a serious piece of writing (Aldous Huxley)--the kind of parody I enjoy.
If you are really lucky, there are some excellent music-kind of parodies. Mozart's Horn music is one of them. I remember hearing one done by, was it Flanders and Swan?
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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