Welcome to
Science a GoGo's
Discussion Forums
Please keep your postings on-topic or they will be moved to a galaxy far, far away.
Your use of this forum indicates your agreement to our terms of use.
So that we remain spam-free, please note that all posts by new users are moderated.


The Forums
General Science Talk        Not-Quite-Science        Climate Change Discussion        Physics Forum        Science Fiction

Who's Online
0 registered (), 409 Guests and 1 Spider online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Posts
Top Posters (30 Days)
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
#53040 - 09/18/14 07:57 AM Cryosphere still warming.
samwik Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/10/06
Posts: 1164
Loc: Colorado
In addition to August 2014 being another
'hottest on record' type of month, globally, this year....

Greenland is experiencing another one of its
'new normal' type of years:


National Snow and Ice Data Center :: Advancing knowledge of Earth's frozen regions

...just fyi....

~ wink
_________________________
Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

Top
.
#53055 - 09/19/14 08:10 PM Re: Cryosphere still warming. [Re: samwik]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
Quote:
hottest on record' type of month,


thats because theres more and more air conditioners coming
on line artificially heating up the atmosphere , look at this wall of air conditioners.



LOL


Quote:
Greenland is experiencing another one of its
'new normal' type of years:


normal , because air conditioners are not needed in greenland.


yes , humans have caused a slight degree of warming compared to the
larger degree of cooling of the climate , but warming of the
climate is not caused by CO2.

also , recorded temperatures seem to be recorded in highly populated
hotter areas , thats why I try to focus on the satellite imagery
only ( the white stuff on the ground ) because the white stuff
on the ground tells a conflicting story to the story of todays weather
recording stations mounted in the middle of black asphalt parking lots
or a few feet away from the exhaust side of air
conditioning systems just so that an agenda can be realized.

_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

Top
#53109 - 10/01/14 11:37 PM Re: Cryosphere still warming. [Re: samwik]
samwik Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/10/06
Posts: 1164
Loc: Colorado
Back on topic....

msnbc has this about a 'record-breaking' 35,000 walruses:

Quote:
Pacific walrus that can't find sea ice for resting in Arctic waters are coming ashore in record numbers on a beach in northwest Alaska. Unlike seals, walrus cannot swim indefinitely and must rest.

Females give birth on sea ice and use ice as a diving platform to reach snails, clams and worms on the shallow continental shelf.

In recent years, sea ice has receded north beyond shallow continental shelf waters and into Arctic Ocean water, where depths exceed 2 miles and walrus cannot dive to the bottom. Walrus in large numbers were first spotted on the U.S. side of the Chukchi Sea in 2007.

...also:

"The gathering of walrus on shore is a phenomenon
that has accompanied the loss of summer sea ice
as the climate has warmed."

Here is a copy of the photo:

http://www.rcinet.ca/eye-on-the-arctic/wp-content/uploads/sites/30/2014/10/07147758.jpg
...click on link to see larger, high-res. version of 35,000 beached walruses!....

~
_________________________
Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

Top
#53113 - 10/02/14 06:38 PM Re: Cryosphere still warming. [Re: samwik]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
Quote:
Pacific walrus that can't find sea ice


http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/archive.html

todays cryosphere image...


the oct 1 1979 image



you can pick any 2 days way back to 1979 and compare all the melting
that isn't occurring...

ie...

jan 11 1979


jan 11 2013


I suppose the so called climate scientist and the so called climate scientist off shoot global warming alarmist and scammers for profit and fear mongering for profit people/groups might have a different definition for the word warming than the images all portray.

_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

Top
#53122 - 10/05/14 11:59 PM Re: Cryosphere still warming. [Re: samwik]
samwik Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/10/06
Posts: 1164
Loc: Colorado
^^Thanks Paul, for those nicely picked images. Do you claim to see some trend in your cherry-picked set; or is this just more, lengthy handwaving, from the googlyboop troupe?
Whichever it may be, thanks for sharing your 'self-proclaimed' denialist's perspective.
===

Back on topic:

There is this, from that Laboratory Equipment site. They seem to stay up-to-date.

http://www.laboratoryequipment.com/news/2014/09/study-tracked-sea-levels-over-five-ice-ages

"Land ice decay at the end of the last five ice ages caused global sea levels to rise at rates of up to 5.5 meters per century, according to a new study.
An international team of researchers developed a 500,000 year record of sea level variability, to provide the first account of how quickly sea level changed during the last five ice age cycles."
Quote:
“This happened within 400 years for 68 percent of all 120 cases considered, and within 1,100 years for 95 percent. In other words, once triggered, ice sheet reduction (and therefore sea level rise) kept accelerating relentlessly over periods of many centuries.”
Rohling speculates that there may be an important lesson for our future, “Man-made warming spans 150 years already and studies have documented clear increases in mass-loss from the Antarctic and Greenland ice sheets. Once under way, this response may be irreversible for many centuries to come.”


Fortunately, they conclude.... smile

"Time periods with less than twice the modern global ice volume show almost no indications of sea level rise faster than about two meters per century. Those with close to the modern amount of ice on Earth, show rates of up to one to 1.5 meters per century."

~
_________________________
Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

Top
#53125 - 10/06/14 10:20 AM Re: Cryosphere still warming. [Re: samwik]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
what are you trying to say sam?

are you suggesting that because the ( natural ) climate
cycles cause sea level rises that somehow that ( natural )
climate cycle is connected to manmade greenhouse gasses.

BTW , I didn't cherry pick the images.

I simply used the oldest and newest images from January 12
1979 and 2013 found in the list on the page.
check it out yourself.

note: on the web site clicking on the January 12 2013
image link shows the January 11 image and that's not my fault wink







_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

Top
#53133 - 10/07/14 01:04 AM Re: Cryosphere still warming. [Re: paul]
samwik Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/10/06
Posts: 1164
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: paul
what are you trying to say sam?
...that the cryosphere, especially the Northern Hemisphere's Arctic Regions, is "still warming."

Originally Posted By: paul
are you suggesting that because the (natural) climate
cycles cause sea level rises that somehow that (natural)
climate cycle is connected to manmade greenhouse gases.
...sure? The natural climate is "connected to" greenhouse gases,
regardless of whether the source of the greenhouse gas is 'natural' or 'manmade,' isn't it?
===

But I think the article is "suggesting" that we can better learn
how the cryosphere could respond now,
based on the more detailed picture of how
it has responded to (normal) climate forcing in the past.

Originally Posted By: Cited Science Article, from above:
"Time periods ...with close to the modern amount of ice on Earth, show rates of up to one to 1.5 meters per century."

~


Edited by samwik (10/07/14 01:12 AM)
Edit Reason: Add quote from citation.
_________________________
Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

Top
#53137 - 10/07/14 02:07 PM Re: Cryosphere still warming. [Re: samwik]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
Quote:
...that the cryosphere, especially the Northern Hemisphere's Arctic Regions, is "still warming."


the problem that I have with the proposed "warming" is that
I cant find any evidence of "warming".

when I look at the cryosphere imagery and I see all the
areas where there is more and more snow and ice forming
during the years leading up to the current year I cant
equate that to "warming" , I can equate that to cooling
however.

and speaking of the Northern Hemisphere, when I look at this
picture that pops up under the sponsor bar occasionally ,
you've seen her the Lady with the red sweater , I just feel
all warm and cozy , that's because my mind is referencing
past experiences of warmth and coziness.

The Lady with the Red Sweater

I don't get any warm and cozy feelings when I see the
cryosphere images that are showing more and more snow and ice each year as time passes ...


_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

Top
#53144 - 10/08/14 02:50 AM Re: Cryosphere still warming. [Re: samwik]
Max Offline
Member

Registered: 02/18/07
Posts: 93
Hey Paul, I think you missed the disclaimer at the bottom of the page about historic snow coverage. The older pictures do not show snow coverage. HTH

Edit...
http://igloo.atmos.uiuc.edu/cgi-bin/test/print.sh


Edited by Max (10/08/14 02:58 AM)

Top
#53148 - 10/08/14 06:24 AM Re: Cryosphere still warming. [Re: samwik]
Amaranth Rose II Offline

Superstar

Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 962
Loc: Southeast Nebraska, USA
I looked at the October 1, 2004 vs. the October 1, 2014 map. There seems to be a major reduction in the purple colored regions. The map key doesn't say what the white signifies, but it is about the same or a little reduced and rearranged on the 2014 map. I would have to say it looks like there is less ice this year than there was 10 years ago. I just chose those two dates at random, because it was set up with October 1 as the date initially. It looks like there is a major change between 1994 and 2004, also. I would have to say it looks like a 20 year trend towards loss of ice in the Arctic. Whether that is a long-term trend or just for those two decades, I cannot say. But it certainly looks to me like there is less of the thick ice up there.
_________________________
If you don't care for reality, just wait a while; another will be along shortly. --A Rose


Top
#53154 - 10/09/14 08:42 AM Re: Cryosphere still warming. [Re: Max]
samwik Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/10/06
Posts: 1164
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: Max
Hey Paul, I think you missed the disclaimer at the bottom of the page about historic snow coverage. The older pictures do not show snow coverage. HTH

Edit...
http://igloo.atmos.uiuc.edu/cgi-bin/test/print.sh
... smile
Even if those pictures of “snow cover” are misleading, they don’t matter much either way in terms of the long-term effects from greenhouse heating. Increased snowfall is a common response to greenhouse heating in certain regions, since the warmer air can hold more moisture, so long as it’s still cold enough to snow within that region.
Paul may recall how "Global Warming Won't Stop Snowstorms"...
Quote:
“People may know the expression, ‘It’s too cold to snow’ — if it’s very cold, there is too little water vapor in the air to support a very heavy snowfall, and if it’s too warm, most of the precipitation will fall as rain,” O’Gorman said. “Snowfall extremes still occur in the same narrow temperature range with climate change, and so they respond differently to climate change compared to rainfall extremes or average snowfall.”

===

Originally Posted By: Amaranth Rose II
...I would have to say it looks like a 20 year trend towards loss of ice in the Arctic. Whether that is a long-term trend or just for those two decades, I cannot say. But it certainly looks to me like there is less of the thick ice up there.
...There is this NASA graph of various trend perspectives on the temperature anomaly, but that is just air temperatures.
The “ice extent” and “new ice” and “multi-year ice” are important dimensions to consider also, for gauging overall warming of the cryosphere.
They [the measurements] are all ahead of what science predicted, for their long-term decline, in response to increased greenhouse heating.


===

But yes, the decline in thick, multi-year ice seems to be highlighted in these images below, whatever their map keys are supposed to show.


1979-2003 ucsusa.org
vs.

1980-2012 scientificamerican.com
= =


nsidc.org/data/seaice_index/ [Oct. 7, 2014]

Since there is less multi-year ice each year, more ‘new ice’ develops and melts away during the yearly cycles nowadays, so the changes related to albedo as well as 'flux in heat capacity' are much greater nowadays. No scientists will admit to a direct linkage, yet, but the effects on the Polar Jet Stream and Polar Vortex seem to have become obvious ...istm, over the past several years.

~ wink
_________________________
Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

Top
#53155 - 10/09/14 04:49 PM Re: Cryosphere still warming. [Re: samwik]
Bill S. Offline
Megastar

Registered: 08/20/10
Posts: 3570
Loc: Essex, UK
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn26317?cmpid=NLC|NSNS|2014-1009-GLOBAL&utm_medium=NLC&utm_source=NSNS&#.VDa64xawSYg

“Scientists may have hugely underestimated the extent of global warming because temperature readings from southern hemisphere seas were inaccurate.”
_________________________
There never was nothing.

Top
#53159 - 10/09/14 08:53 PM Re: Cryosphere still warming. [Re: samwik]
Max Offline
Member

Registered: 02/18/07
Posts: 93
I can't believe that people are still talking about AGW. You guys can't use Polar ice as a poster child for AGW. Soot is melting the ice, just like I said years ago. I'm sure some of you remember when I posted the video where you could see it happen. BTW, Hide the decline. smile

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=hide...3AEB5DAED0239F3

Top
#53201 - 10/13/14 02:50 PM Re: Cryosphere still warming. [Re: Max]
samwik Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/10/06
Posts: 1164
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: Max
Soot is melting the ice, just like I said years ago. I'm sure some of you remember when I posted the video where you could see it happen.


I think that, going by the charts, soot is well known to account for about one third of the anthropogenic effect, and about one quarter of the overall "climate forcing" effect.

And as you mention, known about for a long time now....
http://www.nature.com/news/2008/080723/full/454393a.html
Published online 23 July 2008 | Nature 454, 393-396

"Combining with the dust to drive climate change are emissions of 'black carbon', the soot that results when people cook with biofuels such as wood, crop waste or dung. Southeast Asia, including the Himalayas, is one of the global hotspots for black-carbon emissions...."
===

http://nsidc.org/icelights/2011/02/23/is-dirty-air-adding-to-climate-change-2/
February 23, 2011 “Is dirty air adding to climate change?”


“Arctic sea ice has declined faster than climate models predicted. Could soot be one of the reasons? The graph above shows the forecast of sea ice decline in gray, based on eighteen computer models used by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) in preparing its 2007 assessments. The red line shows actual observed sea ice extent, based on satellite data, from 1979 to 2009.”
===

Yep, and....
http://www.nature.com/news/double-threat-for-tibet-1.15738?WT.ec_id=NATURE-20140821
Hot, dry weather and progressive urbanization are turning grasslands into sand near the headwaters of the Yellow, Yangtze and Mekong rivers.”
Originally Posted By: Nature: Aug. 2014
A comprehensive environmental assessment of the Plateau of Tibet has found that the region is getting hotter, wetter and more polluted, threatening its fragile ecosystems and those who rely on them.

But some areas, such as the headwater region of Asia’s biggest rivers, have become warmer and drier and are being severely affected by desertification and grassland and wetland degradation.

The plateau and its surrounding mountains cover 5 million square kilo¬metres and
hold the largest stock of ice outside the Arctic and Antarctic;
the region is thus often referred to as the Third Pole.
And like the actual poles, it is increasingly feeling the effects of climate change, but rapid development is putting it doubly at risk, the report says.

Pollution is coming not just from local sources. Dust, black carbon, heavy metals and other toxic compounds are being blown in from Africa, Europe and southern Asia. The dust and carbon residues are darkening glaciers, making them more susceptible to melting, and the toxic chemicals are poisoning crops, livestock and wildlife.
...another part of the planet's cryosphere, still warming....

“But the threats from mining and pollution are dwarfed by the potential repercussions of changes in ice and vegetation cover, the assessment says.”
===

In the end, the Tibetan plateau may be a crucial testing ground for how humans and the environment collide in a globally warmed world.
Can the world's third pole be saved?
“Let's hope that the changes the plateau is going through are only transient,” says Yao.
“What we do about them probably will determine what's going to happen to it in the future.”

~ :yep:
_________________________
Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

Top
#53588 - 12/18/14 09:47 PM Re: Cryosphere still warming. [Re: samwik]
Bill S. Offline
Megastar

Registered: 08/20/10
Posts: 3570
Loc: Essex, UK
_________________________
There never was nothing.

Top
#53593 - 12/20/14 12:14 AM Re: Cryosphere still warming. [Re: samwik]
Amaranth Rose II Offline

Superstar

Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 962
Loc: Southeast Nebraska, USA
Looks like the ocean is making inroads into Greenland. A fjord where there once was a glacier is a major reorganization. The oceans are coming to get us. We had better be prepared.
_________________________
If you don't care for reality, just wait a while; another will be along shortly. --A Rose


Top
#53664 - 01/20/15 04:34 PM Re: Cryosphere still warming. [Re: samwik]
Bill S. Offline
Megastar

Registered: 08/20/10
Posts: 3570
Loc: Essex, UK
http://www.laboratoryequipment.com/news/...20&type=cta

One tends to think of lots of water when glaciers melt, and possibly piles of moraine, but I hadn't thought about this quantity of organic carbon.
_________________________
There never was nothing.

Top
#53967 - 06/07/15 09:04 AM Re: Cryosphere still warming. [Re: samwik]
samwik Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/10/06
Posts: 1164
Loc: Colorado
Here is more change climate is causing:

http://www.hcn.org/articles/this-just-happened-alaskas-warm-winter
"...temperatures in Anchorage did not go below zero a single time in 2014."

Quote:
Perhaps most jarring, temperatures in Anchorage did not go below zero a single time in 2014. Because this new record covers an entire calendar year, it also reflects last winter’s abnormal warmth.

...discussing whether climate change “caused” this particular bad winter misses the point, which is that this winter’s warmth is now part of the climate record. ...
In other words, it’s not whether climate change caused this winter, it’s that this winter is climate change.

....The snow line will migrate higher in elevation and farther north, disrupting traditions such as the Iditarod.

In March, a challenging mushing season culminated with the Iditarod. Open rivers and scant snow hampered trainings and qualifying races, while the food drops that are traditionally left frozen outdoors required artificial refrigeration.
Eventually, organizers moved the race 300 miles north to Fairbanks,
for the second time in 12 years.
...worthy of a bumper sticker!

"...it’s not whether climate change caused this winter,
it’s that this winter is climate change."


...and how about this spring?!?
...as the Polar Jet Stream increasingly becomes weakened by continued greenhouse warming.

~
_________________________
Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

Top
#54000 - 06/15/15 08:33 PM Re: Cryosphere still warming. [Re: samwik]
Bill S. Offline
Megastar

Registered: 08/20/10
Posts: 3570
Loc: Essex, UK
Haven't seen Paul for a while, so I thought I would post this comment in case he's still with us.

15th June, just a few days off the summer equinox and according to the local Met Office there was "grass frost" in the Harwich area this morning.

Global what? smile
_________________________
There never was nothing.

Top
#54011 - 06/18/15 05:51 PM Re: Cryosphere still warming. [Re: Bill S.]
Amaranth Rose II Offline

Superstar

Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 962
Loc: Southeast Nebraska, USA
Hi, Bill S. I think you mean Summer Solstice, not Summer Equinox. Equinoxes occur in the Fall and Spring. The Summer Solstice is the shortest night of the year (bad news for those of us who are already sleep-deficient) and was believed to be magical by many of Earth's peoples. I'm not sure I believe in magic, but it is a somewhat special time of year.


Edited by Amaranth Rose II (06/18/15 05:52 PM)
_________________________
If you don't care for reality, just wait a while; another will be along shortly. --A Rose


Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >



Newest Members
debbieevans, bkhj, jackk, Johnmattison, RacerGT
865 Registered Users
Sponsor
Facebook

We're on Facebook
Join Our Group

Science a GoGo's Home Page | Terms of Use | Privacy Policy | Contact Us
Features | News | Books | Physics | Space | Climate Change | Health | Technology | Natural World

Copyright © 1998 - 2016 Science a GoGo and its licensors. All rights reserved.