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#52823 - 08/18/14 01:56 AM Carbon Dioxide Trapping of Earth's Heat
paul Offline
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Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
in the below video the author of the video is explaining
how the CO2 in the earths atmosphere traps the suns heat in the atmosphere.

but what I see in the video is that after the author adds the CO2 the suns heat never reaches the earth , because the camera is supposed to show the amount of the suns heat that reaches the earth.

to me the video shows exactly what I have been trying to
tell people , and that is that CO2 is a global cooling gas.

the video clearly shows that the suns heat is blocked by
CO2.

the first and foremost clear danger from CO2 is cooling not warming.




_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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.
#52825 - 08/19/14 03:49 PM Re: Carbon Dioxide Trapping of Earth's Heat [Re: paul]
paul Offline
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Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
only 16 views , hmmm

it was only 0 views when I first checked it today.

so I adapted its title in a separate thread to be more attractive and interesting to what concerns people the most. mad

_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#52826 - 08/19/14 08:30 PM Re: Carbon Dioxide Trapping of Earth's Heat [Re: paul]
Bill Offline
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Registered: 12/31/10
Posts: 1858
Loc: Oklahoma, USA
Well, have you considered the fact that CO2 doesn't absorb visible and UV radiation? So visible and UV radiation pass through the atmosphere and warm the surface. The surface then emits IR radiation which is absorbed by CO2.

Since you have been showing a great interest in graphs lately here is a graph of the sunlight that reaches the Earth.



And here is a graph of the absorption of electromagnetic radiation by atmospheric gases.



Notice that the UV/Visible absorption is very low, up to about 0.750 to 0.800 microns (750 to 800 nm) And that the green house gases all have strong absorption bands in longer wavelengths.

And if CO2 cools, why is Venus so hot? Its atmosphere is primarily CO2.

Bill Gill
_________________________
C is not the speed of light in a vacuum.
C is the universal speed limit.

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#52827 - 08/19/14 10:32 PM Re: Carbon Dioxide Trapping of Earth's Heat [Re: Bill]
paul Offline
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Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136

Quote:
And if CO2 cools


well , have you considered that over half of the heat that
the sun provides to heat the earth is infrared light?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunlight

Quote:
sunlight at the earth's surface is around 52 or 55 percent infrared (above 700 nm), 43 or 42 percent visible (400 to 700 nm), and 5 or 3 percent ultraviolet (below 400 nm).[


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infrared_radiation

Quote:
Sunlight, at an effective temperature of 5,780 kelvins, is composed of nearly thermal-spectrum radiation that is slightly more than half infrared. At zenith, sunlight provides an irradiance of just over 1 kilowatt per square meter at sea level. Of this energy, 527 watts is infrared radiation, 445 watts is visible light, and 32 watts is ultraviolet radiation.[9]


CO2 is a cooling gas and an abnormally large amount of CO2
in the atmosphere would cool the earth to the degree that the
missing infrared heat that would get trapped in the atmosphere by the CO2 would normally heat the earth.

over half of the suns heat is a lot of heat that the earths
climate will no longer have.

also , I would tend to think that a cooling effect would be
the first effect that people would notice on the surface of
the earth , what happens high in the atmosphere would take
quite a while to transfer down to the surface especially
since heat really wants to rise not fall.

heat transfers from hot to cold , and space is much colder
than the surface of the earth.

we might want to ask Amaranth what removing
half of the suns heat would do to food crops.

and to the ability of plants to process CO2 into Oxygen.


_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#52828 - 08/20/14 03:15 AM Re: Carbon Dioxide Trapping of Earth's Heat [Re: paul]
Bill Offline
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Registered: 12/31/10
Posts: 1858
Loc: Oklahoma, USA
Originally Posted By: Paul
well , have you considered that over half of the heat that
the sun provides to heat the earth is infrared light?

Where do you get that? If you will look at the spectrum in the first graph in my reply you will notice that the peak of the radiation from the Sun, at the top of the atmosphere is in UV and visible? The level in the CO2 absorption bands is a whole lot lower than the level in the UV and visible.

And of course I'm still not sure why Venus is so hot if CO2 cools things off.

Bill Gill
_________________________
C is not the speed of light in a vacuum.
C is the universal speed limit.

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#52831 - 08/20/14 02:11 PM Re: Carbon Dioxide Trapping of Earth's Heat [Re: Bill]
paul Offline
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Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
Bill
I found a similar graph to your graph only the below graph
comes right out and shows the amounts of infrared visible and uv



Quote:
Where do you get that?




I posted the links to where I got that , but heres another


http://www.johnsonwindowfilms.com/dealer/printPage.php?ARTICLE_ID=244

and heres a graph from the page.



here are a few more graphs that seem to agree with the links
I posted.

https://www.google.com/search?site=imghp...+image#imgdii=_


and my reply to this

Quote:
And of course I'm still not sure why Venus is so hot if CO2 cools things off.



CO2 cools the surface of the earth and warms the atmosphere.

that should be pretty clear , right?

what the people who live on the surface of the earth should
be concerned with is that CO2 is a cooling gas.

because the first effects that they will notice will be
cooling.

only the people who live in the atmosphere should be concerned that CO2 warms the atmosphere.

because the first effects that they will notice will be warming.

no one lives in the atmosphere where the CO2 will be causing the atmosphere to be warming.

everyone else lives on the surface of the earth where the
CO2 will be causing the surface to be cooling.

the farmers that do not live and have farms in the atmosphere
will experience warming which might even help their crops
that they don't have planted in the atmosphere to grow.

all of the other farmers that live and have farms on the
surface of the earth will experience cooling that may not
help their crops to grow.

people eat food grown in a warm climate.































_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#52835 - 08/21/14 12:06 PM Re: Carbon Dioxide Trapping of Earth's Heat [Re: paul]
samwik Offline
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Registered: 10/10/06
Posts: 1164
Loc: Colorado
Paul... why the long space? laugh
Originally Posted By: paul
well , have you considered that over half of the heat that
the sun provides to heat the earth is infrared light?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunlight


Paul, you're only applying your logic ...to the ‘incoming’ energy,
but that logic probably explains why the mesosphere warms as one descends, and why the stratosphere then cools (descending)
–since the incoming heat has been blocked, I suppose.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_of_Earth
===



...But, you’re overlooking

the ‘outgoing’ energy, which is much longer (in wavelength) than the incoming energy.
Outgoing energy is greater than 3 microns (the Far Infrared, where the planet loses thermal energy to space).
===

The outgoing energy (leaving the surface) gets delayed by GHGs in that lower layer, the troposphere (first graph, above), which heats this lowest layer of atmosphere (that the energy encounters) on the way out.

That may be why my professor said that the ‘greenhouse effect’ is just “another name for vertical layers and structure” in our atmosphere.
===

While some of that ‘incoming’ energy is trapped/blocked by the atmosphere at [very dry] high altitudes....

Below, you can see how much more of the long-wave, “thermal” radiation, greater than 3 microns (3000 nm),
outgoing radiation is blocked at low altitudes by water vapor and the GreenHouse Gases
(GHGs which somewhat 'block' or overlap the small windows where water does not already strongly absorb the outgoing energy).



That is why the sun only accounts for about 1/3 of the energy that directly warms the Earth,
while “2/3 of the energy that warms Earth comes from the atmosphere.” –per class notes, 2011

~
_________________________
Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

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#52836 - 08/21/14 02:19 PM Re: Carbon Dioxide Trapping of Earth's Heat [Re: samwik]
paul Offline
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Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
Quote:
That is why the sun only accounts for about 1/3 of the energy that directly warms the Earth,
while “2/3 of the energy that warms Earth comes from the atmosphere.” –per class notes, 2011


then wouldn't that 1/3 of the suns energy be cut in half by
CO2 as the video shows?

and wouldn't all of the reflected infrared radiation be
removed as the video shows that CO2 traps the Infrared radiation.

wouldn't these things equate to cooling the earths surface before warming the earths surface?

or are you saying that the infrared heat from the sun is
not an effect that adds immediate warmth to the earths
surface first.

in that the heat that is trapped by the atmosphere warms
the surface before the direct immediate heat from the
sun warms the earths surface.

if not then how many decades or centuries
will pass before the heat in the atmosphere will actually
warm the earth?

and while the people of the earth are waiting and preparing
for the warmth , how many of the waiters will starve to death
and freeze to death waiting for the global warming to begin?


_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#52837 - 08/21/14 02:53 PM Re: Carbon Dioxide Trapping of Earth's Heat [Re: paul]
samwik Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/10/06
Posts: 1164
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: paul
Quote:
That is why the sun only accounts for about 1/3 of the energy
that directly warms the Earth,
while “2/3 of the energy that warms Earth comes from the atmosphere.” –per class notes, 2011
...
or are you saying that the infrared heat from the sun is
not an effect that adds immediate warmth to the earths
surface first.
...about 1/3 of the "immediate warmth to the ...surface" comes from direct heating (by the sun) [note: not the same as your "1/3 of the suns energy"]

The other 2/3 of "immediate warmth" comes from re-radiation of heat in the troposphere,
back downward toward the surface.

The heat in the troposphere comes from the "upgoing thermal radiation" shown in the graphs above. That is why it doesn't get as cold as the dark side of the moon, when it is nightime here. But that is also why dry deserts cool off more rapidly at night, when compared with humid areas, as water vapor in the troposphere affects "immediate warmth to the ...surface" through the nightime.

~
_________________________
Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

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#52838 - 08/21/14 03:04 PM Re: Carbon Dioxide Trapping of Earth's Heat [Re: samwik]
paul Offline
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Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
Quote:
...about 1/3 of the "immediate warmth to the ...surface" comes from direct heating (by the sun) [note: not the same as your "1/3 of the suns energy"]

The other 2/3 of "immediate warmth" comes from re-radiation of heat in the troposphere,
back downward toward the surface.


so you agree that over 1/2 of the 1/3 of the suns heat would be trapped in the atmosphere by CO2.

would you agree that increasing amounts of CO2 in
the atmosphere will bring a proportional cooling to the
earths surface?

Quote:
The other 2/3 of "immediate warmth" comes from re-radiation of heat in the troposphere,
back downward toward the surface.


would you also agree that increasing amounts of CO2 in
the atmosphere would bring a proportional cooling to the atmosphere due to the proportion of lost re-radiation
or reflected heat from the surface?

bear with me , Im working on a anti green house effect. wink

global warmers want to count the heat each time it bounces
back and fourth from the surface to the atmosphere , Im planning to counter that with run away cooling...

because its exactly backwards from what science says it
will be , therefore it must be correct.

main line science makes a excellent backwards barometer.


_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#52839 - 08/21/14 03:51 PM Re: Carbon Dioxide Trapping of Earth's Heat [Re: paul]
samwik Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/10/06
Posts: 1164
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: paul
...bear with me , Im working on a anti green house effect. wink

global warmers want to count the heat each time it bounces
back and fourth from the surface to the atmosphere , Im planning to counter that with run away cooling...

because its exactly backwards from what science says it
will be , therefore it must be correct.
...so does that make you a denialist, or simply a contrarian or an automatic gainsayer?
...or is this just 'being hit-in-the-head lessons' wink ?

But seriously, you seem to ignore the difference between the incoming radiation (short wave, on the left of the graph), and the outgoing, long-wave (over three microns, on the right of the graph) radiation,
which is where the 2/3 of surface (and nighttime) heating comes from.

The atmosphere is mostly invisible to incoming energy (visible, UV & near IR),
[...so it gets to the ground and is absorbed or reflected back into space]

but the graph above shows that the atmosphere is more opaque
to the outgoing, thermal energy
[...which leaves the ground and is trapped or delayed, nearby, in the water vapor and GHGs].

...which is where 2/3 of the surface (especially nighttime) heating comes from.

~
_________________________
Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

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#52841 - 08/21/14 05:50 PM Re: Carbon Dioxide Trapping of Earth's Heat [Re: samwik]
paul Offline
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Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
as you know , I have been saying that CO2 is a cooling gas
for awhile now , that shouldn't be conspired as automatic gainsaying simply because the video shows that CO2 is a cooling gas.

and I wouldn't say that I am a denialist , more of a realist
because I don't care which way the cards fall , I read what the cards say.

Quote:
But seriously, you seem to ignore the difference between the incoming radiation (short wave, on the left of the graph), and the outgoing, long-wave (over three microns, on the right of the graph) radiation,
which is where the 2/3 of surface (and nighttime) heating comes from.


how can you say that , when I am saying that the atmosphere
will experience a proportionate amount of cooling because
the incoming IR will be trapped by the CO2 and therefore
will not be re-emitted / reflected by the surface because the
IR gets trapped in the atmosphere and never reaches the surface.

any amount of IR that is outgoing from the surface due to
the heat from visible light will also be proportionately
trapped by the CO2 in the atmosphere so even the
nighttime heating will diminish by the proportion of CO2 in the atmosphere.

this will all cool the earths surface not warm it.








_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#52842 - 08/21/14 06:32 PM Re: Carbon Dioxide Trapping of Earth's Heat [Re: paul]
samwik Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/10/06
Posts: 1164
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: paul
how can you say that....
...not me, but mainstream science does say that.

How can you say that: ...of the heat trapped near the surface ("IR that is outgoing due to the heat from

visible light will also be proportionately

trapped by the CO2 in the atmosphere
") ...that the nearby atmosphere would not
also then re-radiate
that extra heat, to warm the surface, especially at night?

Do you think the nearby heat is trapped forever,
or that it does slowly re-radiate away --in random directions (half of it back downwards)?
~
_________________________
Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

Top
#52843 - 08/21/14 06:36 PM Re: Carbon Dioxide Trapping of Earth's Heat [Re: samwik]
paul Offline
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Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
I wasn't talking about near surface.

Quote:
any amount of IR that is outgoing from the surface due to
the heat from visible light will also be proportionately
trapped by the CO2
in the atmosphere so even the
nighttime heating will diminish by the proportion of CO2 in the atmosphere.


I was talking about the CO2 , you were talking about near surface.

also if your going to quote what I say , please try to
resist manipulating and inserting words.


Quote:
How can you say that: ...of the heat trapped near the surface ("IR that is outgoing due to the heat from

visible light will also be proportionately

trapped by the CO2 in the atmosphere") ...that the nearby atmosphere would not
also then re-radiate that extra heat, to warm the surface, especially at night?

Do you think the nearby heat is trapped forever,
or that it does slowly re-radiate away --in random directions (half of it back downwards)?
~


its getting harder to find what your replying to.

Quote:
you seem to ignore the difference between the incoming


how can you say that?

Quote:
...not me, but mainstream science does say that.


does main stream science really say that I seem to ignore the difference between incoming and outgoing radiation?

or was it you that said that?


_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#52844 - 08/21/14 07:00 PM Re: Carbon Dioxide Trapping of Earth's Heat [Re: paul]
samwik Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/10/06
Posts: 1164
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: paul
I wasn't talking about near surface.
...but that is where the greenhouse effect, and the climate, operate.
===

As I said, your logic works ...for incoming IR energy ...blocking some heat from getting to the planet (so in that sense, it has some cooling effect).

But in the troposphere, with outgoing long-wave thermal radiation, GHGs "block" the heat and 're-warm' the surface.

If you want to call it a cooling gas, that's fine; but it still contributes to the greenhouse effect down here, warming the region "about near surface."

~
_________________________
Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

Top
#52845 - 08/21/14 07:10 PM Re: Carbon Dioxide Trapping of Earth's Heat [Re: samwik]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
Quote:
As I said, your logic works ...for incoming IR energy ...blocking some heat from getting to the planet (so in that sense, it has some cooling effect).


your some above is over 50% , lets not forget that part.

Quote:
GHGs "block" the heat and 're-warm' the surface.


would you say that as the GHGs "block" the heat and re-warm
the surface the heat is re-emitted?

ie...

a total exchange
100 up
100 down

or is it a percentage

100% up
50% down

Quote:
If you want to call it a cooling gas, that's fine; but it still contributes to the greenhouse effect down here, warming the region "about near surface."


CO2 ?

how does CO2 still contribute to "about near surface" if long wave radiation is trapped by CO2?

other GHGs I can understand such as water vapor , and the
near objects that can hold heat near or on the surface.


you have never answered my question about the lag time
that it takes temperatures to move from the atmosphere to
the surface , but in another thread you stated that the
lag time could be decades even hundreds of years does this mean that you also think that surface temperatures
might drop before they rise due to an increase in CO2 levels?

you have pretty much already agreed that they will , but Im
not sure that you have.



_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#52846 - 08/21/14 07:32 PM Re: Carbon Dioxide Trapping of Earth's Heat [Re: paul]
samwik Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/10/06
Posts: 1164
Loc: Colorado


Originally Posted By: paul
...how does CO2 still contribute to "about near surface" if long wave radiation is trapped by CO2?

other GHGs I can understand such as water vapor , and the
near objects that can hold heat near or on the surface.


Earlier I asked: "Do you think the nearby heat is trapped forever,
or that it does slowly re-radiate away --in random directions (half of it back downwards)?"

Apparently you thought it was the former, but:

That (the latter) is how all GHGs operate (re-radiating heat away after absorption ...in a random direction).
Do you think CO2 operates differently from other GHGs?

~
edit: You added,
Quote:
"you have never answered my question about the lag time
that it takes temperatures to move from the atmosphere to
the surface , but in another thread you stated that the
lag time could be decades even hundreds of years does this mean that you also think that surface temperatures
might drop before they rise due to an increase in CO2 levels?"

No, the lag time I talked about was for climate systems such as the oceans warming or ice sheets melting,
which can take decades or centuries to adjust to a few Watts of extra heating.

The "lag time" here, with CO2 greenhouse warming, is essentially the speed of light
...plus about 10 minutes, which is about the time that CO2 hold on to the absorbed
long-wave radiation, before it is re-emitted ...in a random direction
(with half of it downward, re-warming the nearby surface).


Edited by samwik (08/21/14 07:52 PM)
Edit Reason: answer additional question
_________________________
Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

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#52848 - 08/21/14 07:45 PM Re: Carbon Dioxide Trapping of Earth's Heat [Re: samwik]
paul Offline
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Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
Quote:
Do you think the nearby heat is trapped forever


if I thought that then in my mind wouldn't the earth
already have melted away by now , since heat is additive?


Quote:
Do you think CO2 operates differently from other GHGs?


I posted a video that shows that CO2 does not hold heat as
long as air does.



_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#52849 - 08/21/14 08:12 PM Re: Carbon Dioxide Trapping of Earth's Heat [Re: samwik]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136


Quote:
with half of it downward, re-warming the nearby surface).




how could 1/2 of it ( re-emitted radiation )be downward?

that seems improbable unless your talking about from
91 degrees to 269 degrees in a downwards direction , in
which case the probability of "it" encountering clouds and being absorbed or reflected by the clouds is rather large.

wouldn't this reduce the half of "it" by a large factor?
_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#52850 - 08/21/14 09:01 PM Re: Carbon Dioxide Trapping of Earth's Heat [Re: paul]
samwik Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/10/06
Posts: 1164
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: paul


Quote:
with half of it downward, re-warming the nearby surface).

how could 1/2 of it ( re-emitted radiation )be downward?

that seems improbable unless your talking about from
91 degrees to 269 degrees in a downwards direction , in
which case the probability of "it" encountering clouds and being absorbed or reflected by the clouds is rather large.
...right; and yet not impossible, but actual.

Originally Posted By: paul
wouldn't this reduce the half of "it" by a large factor?
...by some amount....

And recall, all the absorbed UV, visible, and near IR, are soon re-emitted as the long-wave IR,
shown in those graphs from earlier as "upgoing thermal radiation."

...or below as "surface radiation"


Quote:
http://www.goes-r.gov/users/comet/tropical/textbook_2nd_edition/navmenu.php_tab_2_page_2.0.0.htm
Global annual mean energy balance for March 2000 to May 2004 (W m-2). The atmosphere is largely transparent to solar radiation; only about 20% is ...


...and you can see that about twice as much heating comes from "back radiation" as is "absorbed by surface" directly from the sun (2/3 vs. 1/3).

~


Edited by samwik (08/21/14 09:11 PM)
Edit Reason: add source quote
_________________________
Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

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