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the expanding space theory that is widely held as scientifically acceptable by certain subcultures of
science may very well have moved its last galaxy due to
its inability to support itself by any means.

and the culprit of its demise being Sir Isaac Newton and
his laws of motion.

the problem recently found with the theory is that the light
from distant galaxies that would travel through the expanding space that moves the galaxies further away from each other
would also move the light waves further away from each other

recently galaxies have been viewed by the hubble space telescope that are over 13 billion light years away from earth
and this of course means that the light that we now see has been traveling through space almost since the beginning of time because the universe is only 13.7 billion years old.

its obvious that the galaxies have expanded away from each other because we can see them.

and the reason we can see them is because the light from the
distant galaxies has not expanded , if the 13 billion year old light waves from any of the recently viewed distant galaxies had been expanding for 13 billion years then the light waves would be so diffused by the expanding space that you would need to have a universe sized telescope in order to collect and concentrate the light into anything that resembled a galaxy.


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Originally Posted By: Paul
the problem recently found with the theory is that the light
from distant galaxies that would travel through the expanding space that moves the galaxies further away from each other
would also move the light waves further away from each other

You're right Paul. The light from the most distant galaxies has expanded. The expansion produces the red shift experienced by the more distant galaxies. In fact the oldest light in the universe has also expanded. It is called the Cosmic Microwave Background. It has expanded so much that it has cooled so that its temperature is about 2.7 degrees K.

The discovery of the CMB was the final nail in the coffin of a static universe.

Bill Gill


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C is the universal speed limit.
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I don't believe that you comprehended what was said.

(actually I do , I just wanted to refute your comments)

in order for the light from a galaxy that is collected by a telescope to be viewed , the light waves themselves could not have expanded away from each other.

light travels in single separate waves , and light travels in a straight line unless compelled to travel in another direction by an external force , so the distance between the light waves that have traveled from the distant galaxies to the telescope would for the most part be intact and could not have expanded.

using your 2 boats being carried in a current of water analogy.

only lets add 3 tiny boats to represent 3 light waves.

and lets space the 3 tiny boats ( light waves ) 1 cm apart.

after an amount of time has passed the expanding space theory
proposes that the 2 boats will be moved further apart from each other because the 2 boats will be carried on the expanding space.

lets say that the current of the expanding space theory has moved the 2 boats 5 billion miles apart from each other.

according to the theory the 3 tiny boats that represent the three light waves would also have moved 5 billion miles apart from each other , and they would spread out like three dots drawn on a balloon would spread out when the balloon is inflated to use another popular analogy.

causing the light to be diffused.

now lets make the light waves a little more compressed together by using our suns light waves as an example , if a exact copy of our sun was 13 billion miles away in space and being viewed through a very powerful telescope on earth and each light wave emitted by the exact copy of our sun was 5 billion miles from each other because the light waves had been expanding away from each other for 13 billion years then the light from the exact copy of our sun that enters the telescope would only be 1 light wave if there was a light wave that was moving towards the telescope.

we would not be capable of seeing a sun at all , only a single
light wave if we got extremely lucky.


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Originally Posted By: Paul
light travels in single separate waves , and light travels in a straight line unless compelled to travel in another direction by an external force , so the distance between the light waves that have traveled from the distant galaxies to the telescope would for the most part be intact and could not have expanded.

I'm not sure what you mean by "light travels in single separate waves". But let's talk about the expansion of the waves. Let's go back to the good old fashioned balloon analogy. This time instead of drawing a bunch of dots on the balloon to represent galaxies let's draw some sine waves on the balloon. For simplicity let's just draw a series of individual sine waves in a line around the balloon. Now blow the balloon up. Notice that the separation between the individual waves increases. This is the standard analogy used for the separation of the galaxies as the universe expands. But now look at just one the individual sine waves. Well, well, what do you know. The length of the sine wave has also expanded. Light works just the same way.

Once again your refusal to accept anything that you don't want to believe in is refuted. Thinking about it your steadfast refusal to accept reality does do at least one good thing for me. It keeps me thinking up new ways to point out your continual errors and that is good. Thinking keeps my mind from failing.

Bill Gill


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Is this the sort of thing you have in mind, Paul?

If space is expanding, it is doing so in every direction, not just along a line between observer and observed. We have to think not of a single wave, but of a whole lot of waves (it works better with photons) radiating from a source. The further we are from the source, the fewer photons we will see. Expansion of space would exacerbate this effect.

Originally Posted By: Paul
we would not be capable of seeing a sun at all , only a single
light wave if we got extremely lucky.


Perhaps this is why it is galaxies, rather than individual stars that are observed at great distances.


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As far as I'm aware, the most remote galaxies have been observed owing to gravitational lensing. But of course, anyone who insists that GR is bunk will deny that. Just imagine, a photon takes 13 billion yrs on a journey to say "Hello", only to be told that it doesn't exist grin


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Originally Posted By: Bill S.
If space is expanding, it is doing so in every direction, not just along a line between observer and observed. We have to think not of a single wave, but of a whole lot of waves (it works better with photons) radiating from a source. The further we are from the source, the fewer photons we will see. Expansion of space would exacerbate this effect.

Perhaps this is why it is galaxies, rather than individual stars that are observed at great distances.

What you are referring to there is the inverse square law. The number of photons you receive is inversely proportional to the square of the distance. I suspect that even Paul would agree with that. The expansion of the universe might indeed exacerbate that to some extent, but I don't think I have ever heard of any discussion of the matter. Astronomers are just glad to be able to get any light at all from distant galaxies.

The reason we see galaxies instead of individual stars at great distances is very simply due to the resolution of our telescopes. There is just no way to pick out one star in a galaxy at any great distance. It's kind of like going outside on a clear night and looking at the sky. If you live in a place where you can actually see the sky at night you will see the Milky Way. It looks like a diffuse band of light across the sky. But if you use a telescope it turns out to be a lot of stars. With your eyes you can't see the individual stars. At great distances even the best telescopes can't resolve individual stars in a galaxy.

Bill Gill


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paul Offline OP
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Quote:
by measuring quasars scientist have found that 13.8 billion years ago
the rate of speed of the expansion of the universe or the expansion of space
was 68 kilometers (42 miles) per second per million light-years.


http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/08/tech/innovation/universe-expansion-astronomers/index.html

this means that 13 billion years ago if two light waves were emitted 1 cm apart
and were pointed in the direction of where the earth is located today
( such as one of the recently viewed distant galaxies )
then those two light waves or photons would have been expanding away from each other
for 13 billion years if the expanding space theory and its description of how
space carries the galaxies apart from each other is true.

the light from the distant galaxies that we see today has been traveling and expanding
for 13 billion years because the galaxy is 13 billion light years away from the earth.

1 million ly = 5878625373183608000 miles
42 miles = 2,661,120 inches


5878625373183608000 miles/1,000,000 = 5,878,625,373,183.608 miles per 1 ly
2,661,120 inches/1,000,000 = 2.66112 inches per 1 ly

5,878,625,373,183.608 miles/365 days = 16,105,822,940.229063013698630136986 miles per day
2.66112 inches/365 = 0.00729073972602739726027397260274 inches per day

16,105,822,940.229063013698630136986 miles/24 hours = 671,075,955.84287762557077625570776 miles per hour
0.00729073972602739726027397260274 inches/24 = 3.0378082191780821917808219178082e-4 inches per hour

671,075,955.84287762557077625570776 miles/60 minutes = 11,184,599.264047960426179604261796 miles per minute
3.0378082191780821917808219178082e-4 inches/60 = 5.0630136986301369863013698630137e-6 inches per minute

11,184,599.264047960426179604261796 miles/60 seconds = 186,409.98773413267376966007102993 miles per second
5.0630136986301369863013698630137e-6 inches/60 = 8.4383561643835616438356164383562e-8 inches per second

8.4383561643835616438356164383562e-8 inches per second

the above is the speed of the expansion per second for each second in the next 13 billion years.

now we multiply to find the distance between the light waves that would reach the earth in 13 billion years.

there are 31,536,000 seconds in a year and the light has traveled for 13 billion years.

8.4383561643835616438356164383562e-8 inches per second x 31,536,000 seconds per year = 2.66112 inches per year

2.66112 inches per year x 13,000,000,000 years = 34,594,560,000 inches per 13 billion years

34,594,560,000 / 12 inches = 2,882,880,000 feet per 13 billion years

2,882,880,000 feet / 5280 ft per mile = 546,000 miles per 13 billion years.


each light wave would be 546,000 miles apart from its closest neighbor.

I highly doubt that a single light wave would enter any telescope.

but that would only happen if the expanding space theory were true , and it is
because the expanding space theory is not true that the observeable universe is observable.


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Originally Posted By: paul
...each light wave would be 546,000 miles apart from its closest neighbor.

I highly doubt that a single light wave would enter any telescope

The simple truth is that photons are received, without deference to your doubts. Your 'closest neighbour' distance is arbitrary, but taking your numbers as an example, 546000 miles is a mere 3 seconds of photon travel. Have you considered that exposure times can run in weeks? Have you considered that photomultipliers are used?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photomultiplier
These detectors multiply the current produced by incident light by as much as 100 million times (i.e., 160 dB), in multiple dynode stages, enabling (for example) individual photons to be detected when the incident flux of light is very low.


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Originally Posted By: Paul
this means that 13 billion years ago if two light waves were emitted 1 cm apart
and were pointed in the direction of where the earth is located today
( such as one of the recently viewed distant galaxies )
then those two light waves or photons would have been expanding away from each other
for 13 billion years if the expanding space theory and its description of how
space carries the galaxies apart from each other is true.

Of course a galaxy emits a lot more than 2 light waves. It emits many multiples of billions of photons. I did a quick check on the web on how many photons are emitted by the sun. The reference I found came up with approximately 4.2e44 photons/s. Multiply that by 300 billion stars in our galaxy and I think you will realize that there are plenty of photons to go around so that we will still be able to detect a lot of them.

Bill Gill


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Quote:
but taking your numbers as an example, 546000 miles is a mere 3 seconds of photon travel. Have you considered that exposure times can run in weeks? Have you considered that photomultipliers are used?


I didn't consider that the speed of light or of a photon would
affect the distance that the light waves would have to be moved
away from each other , and I didn't consider the exposure times
or multipliers involved because I didn't think that there would
be enough light that would actually enter any telescope.

as I have given an example of in my previous post that shows
an apx distance between light waves of 546,000 miles.


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Quote:
Of course a galaxy emits a lot more than 2 light waves. It emits many multiples of billions of photons.


that's true a galaxy does indeed emit many multiples of billions or even multiples of trillions of photons etc...

but increasing the number of emitted photons would only exacerbate the issue that's why I only used 2 photons or light waves and showed how far apart the 2 photons would be today.

this distance between photons would be constant no matter how
many photons are emitted.

so in order to reassemble the galaxy into a recognizable image you would need to have a really powerful telescope placed in front of each the many multiples of billions of photons because the photons would all be spread out 546000 miles apart from each other in the cosmos.

there would be very few photons from the galaxy that would actually be traveling towards the earth or any point in the cosmos that is a distance of 13 billion light years away
from the galaxy for that matter

and you could set the exposure time to infinity and you would
never get a recognizable galaxy unless all the multiples of billions upon billions of telescopes were wired together to reconstruct the galaxy as a recognizable image of the galaxy.


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Rose, Newton is at it again.

Bill Gill


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paul Offline OP
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I thought about this and decided that if the expanding space theory were correct then in either situation
either using a single telescope or using multiple billions of telescopes , if the telescope / telescopes are pointed at a
single galaxy the number of light waves from that single galaxy that would actually enter the telescope / telescopes would be extremely small if any , also pretty much any galaxy in the general direction that any telescope or array of telescopes are pointed could possibly be contributing tiny portions of its light waves into the telescope / telescopes.

so you would end up with a mosaic of tiny portions of billions
of galaxies in a image either produced by a single telescope
or an array of billions of telescopes.



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Quote:
as I have given an example of in my previous post that shows
an apx distance between light waves of 546,000 miles.


Paul, you are treating a galaxy as though it were a single point in space. If two photons, emitted from a single point, are 546,000 miles apart, two photons that were 546,000 miles apart when emitted could arrive together. Unlikely? Yes if there were only a few photons, but, as Bill points out, approximately 4.2e44 photons, multiplied by 300 billion are emitted by our galaxy every second.


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Quote:
If two photons, emitted from a single point, are 546,000 miles apart, two photons that were 546,000 miles apart when emitted could arrive together


according to what I understand about the expanding space theory , all objects that are not within a gravitationally
bound area of space , for example the stars and planets of a
galaxy would be carried by the expanding space just like
entire galaxies are carried by the expanding space as the
expanding space expands.

this means that when two photons are emitted 546,000 miles apart from the inside of a galaxy the photons will continue
along their initial path unless compelled to change direction by some external force as long as they are inside the galaxy.

the expanding space theory only applies to objects outside
of gravitationally bound areas which includes the space inside the gravitationally bound areas so as long as the two photons
are inside the gravitationally bound area of the galaxy they
are not affected by the proposed expanding space theory.

it is only after the two photons leave the galaxy that the photons would supposedly become affected by the expanding space theory.

after the two photons have left the galaxy the two photons will supposedly be carried away from each other because of
the effect of the proposed expanding space.

and that's why they call it the expansion of space theory.

so the two photons that were emitted 546,000 miles apart from inside the galaxy would increase the distance between each other to 1,092,000 miles after they have traveled for 13 billion years.

of course if the distance between the two photons did
not increase then that would clearly show that the expanding space theory is incorrect.

the only reason why we have images of complete galaxies is
because the expanding space theory is incorrect and the
subculture that brought this theory into being widely accepted into science and the scientist who have accepted the theory just don't have the needed ability to apply thought to the theory.

otherwise they would have rejected the theory.











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Originally Posted By: Paul
the expanding space theory only applies to objects outside of gravitationally bound areas which includes the space inside the gravitationally bound areas so as long as the two photons are inside the gravitationally bound area of the galaxy they are not affected by the proposed expanding space theory.


The expanding space theory applies to all space, that outside of galaxies and that inside of galaxies, and for that matter inside of stellar systems. However, the gravitational bonding between closely adjacent masses is strong enough so that it overrides the expansion. So gravitationally bound objects are not separating due to the expansion. It is something like a lot of objects floating in the sea. If they are tied together with ropes they will stay together. If they are not they will tend to disperse with time. That isn't a really good analogy, but I hope it gets the idea across.

Bill Gill


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Quote:
The expanding space theory applies to all space


ok I get it now , so the photons inside a galaxy are being
carried by the proposed expanding space theory because they
are not gravitationally bound to other objects in the galaxy.

this would add even more distance between the photons.

heres a excerpt from an article I just read.

Quote:
so no, matter* on a local level isnít expanding. The spaces between planets and stars isnít growing. Only the distances between galaxies which arenít gravitationally bound to each other is increasing. Because space itself is expanding.


matter* meaning the planets and stars are not growing in size.

http://www.universetoday.com/107142/is-everything-in-the-universe-expanding/


the above is similar to many articles I have read in the past
that are attempting to explain the expanding space theory.

and the articles all pretty much say the same things about it.

Im going to go with what the articles are saying about it
because they aren't discussing the expansion with me even
though the authors of the articles may believe in the theory.

I actually like your analogy about the boats tied together
floating on the currents of the sea.


the current of the sea would be moving each of the boats that
are tied together , and that is not a good analogy of the
inside of a galaxy when describing the expanding space theory
because according to the theory space does not expand inside a galaxy.

because light waves are not gravitationally bound to the
planets or suns in a galaxy , this means that light waves can pass through a galaxy without bending unless they become close enough to a gravity field to be bent by the gravity field.

and at the same time the light waves will be carried along
with the expanding space , even though the planets and stars are not being carried by the expanding space , if the theory were correct that is.

geez... I just read what I wrote and it has nothing to do
with anything logical and that is why I struck it from the record.

I must be careful or soon I will find myself venturing down
fantasy lane along with the qmers and the space expanders.

so here is my correction of my misguided thoughts.

since the space between the planets and stars would not be expanded by the proposed expanding space theory then the
light from a star inside a galaxy would not be carried by the proposed expanding space theory because the space inside the galaxy is not expanding.

but the light that exits a galaxy would be carried by the expanding space if the expanding space theory is correct.




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Paul: "the expanding space theory only applies to objects outside
of gravitationally bound areas so as long as the two photons
are inside the gravitationally bound area of the galaxy they
are not affected by the proposed expanding space theory"

Bill Gill then explains the facts; but still:

Paul: "since the space between the planets and stars would not be expanded by the proposed expanding space theory then the
light from a star inside a galaxy would not be carried by the proposed expanding space theory because the space inside the galaxy is not expanding"

To reiterate:

The theory says: Space is expanding everywhere - outside galaxies, inside galaxies even within the cells of your body. Galaxies retain their physical integrity due to gravity, and your body due to nuclear forces. The photon, being massless, is affected by gravity only indirectly due to the effect of mass upon the geometry of the space through which the photon passes. So, no matter where the photon happens to be it's affected by the expansion of space, i.e, its wavelength is increased over time in accordance with the Hubble constant.

But, hey, what are we trying to do here? Educate you? Clearly a waste of time, since all the information is available to you from expert sources on the net, and you are totally rejecting it, so why would you heed what you are told by we amateurs? Like the rest of your baloney, your above posts are not really worth responding to. You are scientifically illiterate, yet you pretend to know more about science than rest of the world combined. You have a bee-in-your-bonnet about science - rather, a hornet's nest - and you're not here to be elucidated.

Good luck Bill Gill, keep pushing that rock up the hill if you must smile


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Rede, As I said, at least this gives me some mental exercise. They do say that mental exercise is a good way to keep your mind working as you grow older.

Partly I respond to Paul as a knee jerk reaction when he says something that is totally out of line with what we actually know about how the universe works. But I also hope to help other people who read his stuff to understand that he really doesn't know, or at least refuses to acknowledge he knows, how the universe works. I have never quite been able to decide if he really believes what he writes or if he is a basic troll trying to stir up trouble. If he is a troll at least he isn't as obnoxious as some trolls who really try to start flame wars. That is he generally doesn't use particularly objectionable language the way a lot of trolls do.

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