Welcome to
Science a GoGo's
Discussion Forums
Please keep your postings on-topic or they will be moved to a galaxy far, far away.
Your use of this forum indicates your agreement to our terms of use.
So that we remain spam-free, please note that all posts by new users are moderated.


The Forums
General Science Talk        Not-Quite-Science        Climate Change Discussion        Physics Forum        Science Fiction

Who's Online
0 registered (), 213 Guests and 1 Spider online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Posts
Fishing , baiting the hook.
by Marchimedes
02/19/20 02:35 AM
Do we have a moderator?
by Marchimedes
02/19/20 02:25 AM
Top Posters (30 Days)
Marchimedes 2
Page 2 of 2 < 1 2
Topic Options
#52190 - 05/25/14 04:47 AM Re: Why would the elements develop into life? [Re: Bill S.]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
Quote:
Many geologists said that continental drift was impossible, because continents could not plough through solid basaltic rock. Later they discovered that although that objection was correct, their conclusion was incorrect because the mechanism was something quite different.


like scientist say that creation is impossible and creationist
say that creation is possible.

we certainly dont know for a fact which is correct.
_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

Top
.
#52191 - 05/25/14 08:38 AM Re: Why would the elements develop into life? [Re: paul]
samwik Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/10/06
Posts: 1164
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: paul
"...to win a case you need evidence of some sort that the jury will consider."
"you should have proof of what you say."
===

"...and remember your the one on sciences side claiming that science can explain how life developed.

and an explanation is not a gathering of assumptions and speculations."
...so how do you define "an explanation." Paul, I think you're getting "explanation" and "proof" conflated in your postings.
===

You asked why (and how), not who; so I was answering the “Why would the elements develop into life" question.
Entropy is the answer. It's part of the "intelligent" design underlying this Creation.

If you define God as the Creator, then once you have a Creation such as this...
Life develops inexorably, given a sufficiently diverse environment. Recall that early Earth had a "reducing" atmosphere.

You don't need to define God as also creating living systems,
if your definition recognizes He designed the system to do that naturally.
===

Sciences, such as thermodynamics and physics and chemistry, are ways of revealing the design of the system.
We are the
eyes of our ancestors.

We are the universe, comprehending itself. We are (ultimately) the eyes of the elements.

...but if all your eyes saw of 'dissipative systems'
was about the rusting of iron, then you need to look further.
Search: dissipative systems Prigogine.

===


~ Life is just Nature's Process for Converting Light into Heat (Life is the most evolved of dissipative systems).
_________________________
Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

Top
#52195 - 05/25/14 05:34 PM Re: Why would the elements develop into life? [Re: samwik]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
Quote:
how do you define "an explanation." Paul


the structure of the processes involved.

play by play action

step 1 step 2 step 3 step 4
.... step 999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,--> etc

until the processes have made / developed / built life.

even with every single scientist and all of the tools that science has acquired on the earth since the earth came into being and every elemental ingredient that comprises life science can not build the simplest form of life.


and that's without first having to create the
initial ingredients that start the process.

you may think that that type of an explanation is too strict.

but if you look around beyond its shell inside the human
cell you will find a billion macroscopic machines all performing intelligent functions.

_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

Top
#52427 - 06/27/14 02:55 PM Re: Why would the elements develop into life? [Re: paul]
Bill S. Offline
Megastar

Registered: 08/20/10
Posts: 3570
Loc: Essex, UK
http://www.laboratoryequipment.com/news/...20&type=cta

I recall reading about Miller’s work in the 50s, remembering my reaction then provides some empathy with Paul’s possible reaction now.
_________________________
There never was nothing.

Top
#52428 - 06/27/14 03:41 PM Re: Why would the elements develop into life? [Re: Bill S.]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
Quote:
remembering my reaction then


Im just being curious , what was your reaction then?
_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

Top
#52432 - 06/27/14 10:10 PM Re: Why would the elements develop into life? [Re: paul]
Bill S. Offline
Megastar

Registered: 08/20/10
Posts: 3570
Loc: Essex, UK
Quote:
Im just being curious


No argument with that. smile

Quote:
what was your reaction then?


That's not the most comfortable idea I have ever come across.
_________________________
There never was nothing.

Top
#52917 - 09/02/14 07:53 AM Re: Why would the elements develop into life? [Re: Bill S.]
samwik Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/10/06
Posts: 1164
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: Bill S.
http://www.laboratoryequipment.com/news/...20&type=cta

I recall reading about Miller’s work in the 50s, remembering my reaction then provides some empathy with Paul’s possible reaction now.

Bill, I just recently figured out that this link you occasionally post for laboratoryequipment…&type=yadayada is not just some spam ad.
It is a link to a neat site, with relevant information, actually pertaining to the topic OP.

If you added a few quotes, from those neat stories, it might draw more interest.
If you're familiar with copyright laws, this is okay....
I enjoyed reading this, from your link, and hearing about one of my favorite topics.
Quote:
The first-ever analysis of some of Miller’s old samples has revealed another way that important molecules could have formed on early Earth.

An electric discharge experiment simulates early Earth conditions using relatively simple starting materials. The reaction is ignited by a spark, simulating lightning, which was likely very common on the early Earth.

"What we found were some of the same products of polymerization that we found in the original samples,” Parker says. “This corroborated the data that we collected from analyzing the original samples.”


While science often finds what it is looking for,
I never wondered what other chemicals that yellow goo must be comprised of.


From:
Originally Posted By: Library
Ecology of Humic Substances in Freshwaters: Determinants from Geochemistry to Ecological Niches
Steinberg, Christian; 2003, V, 440 p. 213 illus., ISBN 978-3-540-43922-6
Library of Congress Call #: QH541.5 .F7S725 2003

“…in the pioneering studies of Stanley L. Miller (1955) on the origin of life in the primitive reducing atmosphere 4 billion years ago, colored tarry substances (1) were present, however were not described or characterized in further detail since Miller focused on the amino acids to identify them as the missing biomolecules to prove the hypothesis….” p.36

...also:

“…HS [Humic Substances], or at least HS-like materials, also form in this experiment, as shown by UV and IR spectra…. According to their elemental composition, these materials are somewhere between humic acid precursors (HAP) and HA [humic acid].”

“Zeichmann (1994) sees the most important role of HS to be in chemical and biological evolution (Fig. 2.3). HS eliminate reactive radicals….
Thus, without HS …evolution would not be possible….”

“The discovery of HS formation in the primitive atmosphere has further far reaching consequences for the understanding of ecosystem functioning.” –page 36


Quote:
- page 37: “Once organisms have evolved, and through the formation of humus from dead biomass, the quality of HS becomes more diverse and its quantity greater. For organisms, the adaptive pressure rises.”

“We hypothesize that this chemical stress exerted …since the primitive Earth, is likely one major reason for the fact that the ‘defense’ systems are very similar in all organisms.”


"The HS are to be granted the role of an independent ecosystem component,
such as atmosphere, water, or light, since they come into being simultaneously with early life.

This means that living organisms have to adapt to humus or HS-like materials with which they come in contact from the very time they evolve."
~p.36/37 (2002, Steinberg; Ecology of Humic Substances....)

~ cool
_________________________
Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

Top
#52926 - 09/04/14 01:27 AM Re: Why would the elements develop into life? [Re: samwik]
Orac Offline
Megastar

Registered: 05/20/11
Posts: 2819
Loc: Currently Illinois, USA
I am not sure this was meant to be a humorous thread but it is ... The old choice argument smile

How do oxygen and hydrogen make a choice to combine?
Why did life make a choice to come into existence?
Do I have a choice on fate or is it predestined by allah/god?
Given a bagel on the table do I have any choice but to eat it?

Time to eat bagel and contemplate.
_________________________
I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.

Top
#52934 - 09/04/14 06:15 PM Re: Why would the elements develop into life? [Re: Orac]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
Quote:
Given a bagel on the table do I have any choice but to eat it?


perhaps the bagel decided its own fate so that it could
become at least a part of life!
_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

Top
#52935 - 09/04/14 10:31 PM Re: Why would the elements develop into life? [Re: paul]
Amaranth Rose II Offline

Superstar

Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 962
Loc: Southeast Nebraska, USA
But the bagel at one time was part of life, because the grain and yeast it was made from were alive. Do you imagine that those grains of wheat and that yeast made the decision to sacrifice themselves to make your bagel? If you do that, then the very history of the bagel becomes inordinately complex. Having themselves been part of life, they pass through death to become a bagel which becomes part of you when you eat it. It's as if they were born again.
_________________________
If you don't care for reality, just wait a while; another will be along shortly. --A Rose


Top
#52936 - 09/05/14 05:18 AM Re: Why would the elements develop into life? [Re: Amaranth Rose II]
samwik Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/10/06
Posts: 1164
Loc: Colorado
Humic Substances, or humus, may be the key....
Originally Posted By: Amaranth Rose II
It's as if they were born again.

http://faculty.yc.edu/ycfaculty/ags105/week08/soil_colloids/soil_colloids_print.html
(d) Fulvic Acid

After you’ve seen a picture of the organic molecules that comprise humus,
then you can see why, when dried out, humus turns into dust.

Of course in the soil, hydrated humus is bound with various ions,
salts, metals, and minerals; which are the components of ash.

The phrase, ‘Ashes to ashes, and dust to dust,’ seems to accurately reflect the “Conservation of Matter” principle.
===

From humus we have come, and to humus we shall return.
~ wink
_________________________
Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

Top
#52937 - 09/05/14 05:28 AM Re: Why would the elements develop into life? [Re: Amaranth Rose II]
Orac Offline
Megastar

Registered: 05/20/11
Posts: 2819
Loc: Currently Illinois, USA
Haha well done Paul and Rose.

There are so many great articles written about this topic and one of the matrix movies was almost entirely about it.

Now to add some science into this perhaps we can ask does anyone know how you can scientifically test if a choice is made and what assumptions underpin it.

That will get you as close as you can get to the OP answer in a scientific sense and will show the problem with the question as posed.

As it's fairly tough I will give a start point hint:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decision_theory


Edited by Orac (09/05/14 05:35 AM)
_________________________
I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.

Top
#52939 - 09/05/14 03:14 PM Re: Why would the elements develop into life? [Re: Amaranth Rose II]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
A Rose and an Amaranth blossomed side by side in a garden, and the
Amaranth said to her neighbor, "How I envy you your beauty and your
sweet scent! No wonder you are such a universal favorite." But the
Rose replied with a shade of sadness in her voice, "Ah, my dear
friend, I bloom but for a time: my petals soon wither and fall, and
then I die. But your flowers never fade, even if they are cut; for
they are everlasting."
_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

Top
#52949 - 09/08/14 04:55 AM Re: Why would the elements develop into life? [Re: paul]
Amaranth Rose II Offline

Superstar

Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 962
Loc: Southeast Nebraska, USA
Amaranth leaves and seeds are also edible. The Amaranth has its claim to fame, as all its parts are edible.
_________________________
If you don't care for reality, just wait a while; another will be along shortly. --A Rose


Top
#52952 - 09/08/14 02:14 PM Re: Why would the elements develop into life? [Re: Orac]
Bill S. Offline
Megastar

Registered: 08/20/10
Posts: 3570
Loc: Essex, UK
Quote:
That will get you as close as you can get to the OP answer in a scientific sense......


Surely the OP question precludes a scientific answer by including the word "why".
_________________________
There never was nothing.

Top
Page 2 of 2 < 1 2



Newest Members
debbieevans, bkhj, jackk, Johnmattison, RacerGT
865 Registered Users
Sponsor
Facebook

We're on Facebook
Join Our Group

Science a GoGo's Home Page | Terms of Use | Privacy Policy | Contact Us
Features | News | Books | Physics | Space | Climate Change | Health | Technology | Natural World

Copyright © 1998 - 2016 Science a GoGo and its licensors. All rights reserved.