Science a GoGo's Home Page Forums General Discussion General Science Discussion Forum vast water reservoir hidden beneath the earth

not me , Im under the impression that they meant westward motion
when they said westward motion.

they would have used something like

slower eastward motion vs westward motion if that were the case.

thats not the way I see it.

looking at a rotating earth may throw you off.

try looking at it as if the earths crust and mantle were stationary.

the inner core should still be spinning eastward.
and
the outer core should still be spinning westward.

I agree.

The momentum of the inner core would decrease only if the deposition had a greater influence than the pushing effect, which is unlikely. Given that there is a pushing effect, wouldn’t the increase in mass involve an increase in momentum? P=mv, so if v is maintained, and m increases, p increases.

so if v is maintained

if there were an additional force added for rotation as the additional mass is added to the rotation then yes, the momentum would increase.

what we have here is a big ball of iorn that already has a amount of momentum which is P=mv.



P would change because mass is added , as it slows down
P would go from a higher number to a lower number.

lets try that to see if it works.

without using magic.


P=mv
P=100kg x 10mps
P=1000 kg/ms or Ns

lets add mass and keep the velocity

P=mv
P=200kg x 10 mps
P=2000 kg/ms or Ns --> P goes to a higher number because mass is added.

now lets lower the velocity also

P=mv
P=200kg x 5 mps
P=1000 kg/ms or Ns --> P goes to a lower number

yes that works , but how will the entire inner core be decelerated.

by adding mass to the inner core !!!

the magnetic field cant push the inner core if the magnetic field is generated by the inner core.

because that would be like a magnet sitting on a table spinning around under its own power.

I think we need to include a few electromagnet fields.

possibly generated by the westward spinning outer core
and the eastward spinning inner core , crust and mantle.

dont you?


http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/magnetic/MagEarth.html

That is correct. The Earth's magnetic field is generated by the rotation of the conductive core. Movement of the electrons in that core produces the magnetic field. As I understand it the differential rotation of the inner and outer core would be created by the effects of the field from the inner core acting on the outer core. So the inner core would be pushed one way by the magnetic field while the outer core would be pushed the other way. That is like standing on a rotating platform and pushing against a rotating ring around the outside of the one you are standing on. You would rotate one way and the outer ring would rotate the other way.

Bill Gill

This would be the case even though the inner core is not magnetic?

It just depends on it being conductive. The rotating magnetic field generates a current in the core and that current creates a magnetic field in the opposite direction. That's the same way small electric motors work.

Bill Gill

for clarity

The rotating magnetic field (of the inner core)

which is not an electromagnetic field

generates a current in the outercore

because the non electromagnetic field of the inner core causes electrons to pass
charges within the molten metal of the outer core in the direction of the inner cores non electromagnetic fields motion.

and that current creates the electromagnetic field of the outer core..which repels the magnetic field of the inner core causing the inner core itself to spin... in the opposite direction.

although the outer core and the inner core spin in different
directions , the electromagnetic field of the outer core would
still repel the magnetic field of the inner core.

like poles repel each other.

That's the same way small electric motors work.

I think I have that sort of right , what do you think Bill?

this brings us to why do we have pole shifts , LOL

A little clarification may be needed here. In fact all magnetic and electric fields are part of an electromagnetic field. They do not exist in isolation. We frequently speak of a magnetic field or an electric field as if it was an independent item. However, that is just a matter of how we are looking at them. Here is the Wikipedia article It has a fairly good explanation of just how the electromagnetic field works.

And with that small correction I think you have pretty good grasp of the situation.

Bill Gill

I think I'll leave you and Paul to sort out the EM stuff, while I see if I can find out a bit more about the geology of the core mantle boundary.

Should one assume that this means that the inner core completes one more rotation than the rest of the Earth in that time; rather than what it actually says?

That is certainly my interpretation. I recall one place I looked at that said there was an estimate of 1 degree per year, but they had a report that it was slower. I'm not sure now what the rate is, but it is not that much different from the speed of rotation of the Earth.

Bill Gill

I think the latest figure is about a million times slower.

Bill, could you copy n paste that part of the wikipedia article
I couldnt find it.

I want to try and understand how they have come to that conclusion.

I cant see how a magnetic field of a magnet could be confused with a electromagnetic field.

I did find this



When an EM field is not varying in time is the focus there I believe.
and its talking about what observers would see if it were not varying in time.



is that the part that you were referencing?

Paul, I wasn't really referring to any particular part of the article on Wiki. I just wanted to provide an overview of the electromagnetic field.


Keep in mind that the magnetic field of a permanent magnet is generated by the circulation of charges at the atomic level in the magnet. It is a manifestation of the electromagnetic field of those charges.

In your quote about static E and M fields notice that they are referring to EM fields that are not varying in time. This is of course a simplification, since there is in reality no such thing as an EM field that doesn't vary in time. It just varies such a small amount during the time we are observing it that we can work with it as if it is static.

Also in your second quote about observers who see a static E or M field notice that they mention that even if the observer sees static E or M field that the other field will be seen by observers in other frameworks. As I understand it that means that if a charge is not moving in one framework you can see a static E or M field, in that framework. If somebody else observes it who is moving with respect to the charge the other field will be observed in their framework.

And of course even if we have a static field and make some kind of measurement of that field then it will cease to be static, since our measurement will perturb it to some extent. This is an old problem in practical applications. I am well aware of it from the time I was an electronics technician. If I measured a voltage I had to be aware of the impedance of my measuring instrument, since it could load the source of the voltage and cause an erroneous reading. I needed to use a voltmeter that had a high enough impedance that it did not cause a significant change. Notice that it would cause a change, but not enough to create a problem in the reading.

Bill Gill

circulation?

don't you mean orientation of charges?

circulation of charges implies constant energy input into a permanent magnet that would generate any proposed electromagnetic field.

from what I have always understood to be fact , the magnetic
field of a permanent magnet is due only to the orientation of atoms within the magnet.

like striking a iron bar while holding it in line with the
earths magnetic field causes the iron bar to be magnetized because the atoms inside the iron bar all align with the earths magnetic field and they remain locked into that orientation and the orientation is what causes the magnetic field.

theres no charges that are circulating in a permanent magnet
unless theres something that causes the charges to circulate as
in a electromagnet that has current passing through it.

and as soon as the current is removed the electromagnetic field is also removed.

this wouldn't be like QM or Relativity stuff would it?

because it sounds a lot like it may be.


each atom has a north and south pole.
like the earth has , when the iron bar is struck the atoms all
align with the earths magnetic lines of force.

the charges that you say that are circulating is nothing more
than the alignment of the atoms inside the iron bar.

striking the iron bar is what allows the atoms inside the iron bar to move around and align with the earths magnetic field.

if there were charges being circulated within a permanent magnet then the proposed charges could be extracted using a
copper wire coil because the electromagnetic field should also protrude from the permanent magnet , to date I don't think this has been accomplished.

it must be QM or Relativity because it certainly isn't reality.




if what you meant was

circulation of charges within the atoms of the magnet.

then I could certainly agree with you.
because each atom has circulating electrons , LOL

that would mean that you could stack atoms up on top of
one another and form a larger magnetic field , but still there is no circulation of charges within the magnet itself , only in the atoms of the magnet.

and all iron bars do not naturally have a magnetic field , but all iron bars do have atoms within it that have magnetic fields.

and charges do not pass from atom to atom unless the atoms are excited by some external means , so theres no circulation of charges outside of the atoms in a permanent magnet.

the iron core of our earth generates a simple magnetic field.
it does not itself generate any type of electromagnetic field.

I said that the charges were at the atomic level. It is the individual charges within the atom that create the magnetic field. When the atoms have their magnetic orientation aligned then the bar becomes a permanent magnet, produced by the circulation of all those charges in the atoms.

And yes it is a QM effect. Just about everything that isn't SR comes down to QM.

Bill Gill

Not having a great deal of luck finding references to counter rotation of the outer core, but this one provides a slightly different perspective.

http://www.pnas.org/content/110/40/15914

“Seismic probing of the earth’s deep interior has shown that the inner core, the solid core of our planet, rotates slightly faster (i.e., eastward) than the rest of the earth. Quite independently, observations of the geomagnetic field provide evidence of westward-drifting features at the edge of the liquid outer core.”

lets revisit the moments.



and its not an electromagnetic field , its a simple magnetic field.




I dont believe that needed correcting however
when you wrote the below I believe it needed correcting.

as all magnetic and electric fields are part of an electromagnetic field.

all magnetic and electric fields are not part of a electromagnetic field.

all magnetic and electric fields
are caused by the orientation of atoms.















what circulates in the atoms?

in order for there to be circulation a charge would have to leave an atom at the bottom of the stack of atoms and move to the atom above it , until it reaches the atom at the top of the stack of atoms , when the charge leaves the top of the stack of atoms then the charge would have to travel from the top of the stack ( outside of the magnet and to the bottom of the magnet ) and then enter the magnet at the bottom of the stack.



that is so very sad.



the above tells me that a magnetic field and an electric field are two separate fields but they are both components of an electromagnetic field.


https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_field