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 #50769 - 01/15/14 01:13 AM Re: How motion can glue two mass m - atomic bond ? [Re: paul] Orac Megastar Registered: 05/20/11 Posts: 2819 Loc: Currently Illinois, USA Originally Posted By: paulin order to claim that matter in a vacuum cannot travel faster than the speed at which light travels in a vacuum , you must first have resources that could propel matter to that speed in a vacuum.Ummm perhaps you missed the 50 years we have these big machines we build they send matter round and round accelerating matter to almost the speed of light.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Hadron_ColliderQuote:The protons will each have an energy of 7 TeV, giving a total collision energy of 14 TeV. At this energy the protons have a Lorentz factor of about 7,500 and move at about 0.999999991 c, or about 3 metres per second slower than the speed of light (c). It will take less than 90 microseconds for a proton to travel once around the main ring – a speed of about 11,000 revolutions per second.Umm so science got matter to 0.999999991c how much closer would you like them to get?Oh I know a bunch of protons is not matter under goat god theory is it ... how silly of me.Originally Posted By: paulcharlatans who imposed their will upon the population of the Earth through fake science.Imposed???? We don't care what idiot layman believe they can go worship goat gods for all we care ... oh waitThat is the funny thing about science there are very few numbers that actually believe some of the stuff at the cutting edges and it still gets money for the research I wonder why that is See science doesn't impose anything their will on the population we leave that to religion The population of earth funds science freely because they want more weapons, more discoveries, more toys, more money.That's the bit you struggle with Paul science really doesn't give a rats what you think because we get funding not based on popularity but on results and we don't need your belief That is why your war of science against religion is so funny, it's a fight you can't win and you haven't even realized that. Perhaps you would like to start a movement in the USA to ban science you have a large number of religious people there supposedly. Come on if you really believe your garbage start it. See that Paul is called contempt Ahh the smell of the first flame war of the year, I live for it. Edited by Orac (01/15/14 01:39 AM) _________________________ I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you. Top
 #50771 - 01/15/14 01:40 AM Re: How motion can glue two mass m - atomic bond ? [Re: Orac] paul Megastar Registered: 03/21/06 Posts: 4136 Quote:Umm so science got matter to 0.999999991c how much closer would you like them to get?so science claims that it has gotten matter to a speed that close to the speed at which light travels in a vacuum?and it still claims that matter cannot travel faster than the speed at which light travels in a vacuum?Quote:and move at about 0.999999991 c, or about 3 metres per second slower than the speed of light the earth is moving as it rotates at 40,075 km per 24 hours.thats 40,075,000 meters per day.and 1,669,791.66 meters per hour.and 27,829.86 meters per minute.and 463.83 meters per second.according to your testimony of sciences accomplishments the proton would be moving (in reference to the earth)at a speed faster than the speed at which light can travel in a vacuum.in fact 460 meters per second faster than c.and if using our sun as the reference point it would be movingapx 105,000 + 460 meters per second faster than c.so given that science claims that the proton should become infinitely massive as it approaches c , just what does sciencenow claim that infinitely massive really means?the speed of light ( c ) has been broken many times according to your testimony.so why does science and yourself adhere to these false claimsthat matter cannot travel faster than the speed at which light travels in a vacuum?I believe I have won this argument , thanks. _________________________ 3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science. Top
 #50772 - 01/15/14 01:48 AM Re: How motion can glue two mass m - atomic bond ? [Re: paul] Orac Megastar Registered: 05/20/11 Posts: 2819 Loc: Currently Illinois, USA Originally Posted By: paulso why does science and yourself adhere to these false claimsthat matter cannot travel faster than the speed at which light travels in a vacuum?I believe I have won this argument , thanks.If that was all you were trying to prove all you need is a tube in a vacuum and a light in the tube.Now the light in the tube is launched at the speed of light by definition and the tube is moving with the earth so it meets the same criteria as the LHC but it's a little more simple. In fact shining a torch forward off a moving car or anything moving would meet your criteria.There is however a problem lets see if you are smart enough to work it out.Tell you what I will give you a hint the earth isn't moving in a straight line in your story above or any of the stories, your 463 m/sec is in an arc movement. The LHC would have the exact same problem This by the way is very Newton you sure you don't want to join his theory? Edited by Orac (01/15/14 01:56 AM) _________________________ I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you. Top
 #50774 - 01/15/14 02:00 AM Re: How motion can glue two mass m - atomic bond ? [Re: Orac] paul Megastar Registered: 03/21/06 Posts: 4136 so , I suppose that you were just being deceitful when you said the following.Quote:Science says ANYTHING MADE OF MATTER can not go faster than the speed of light. It is also the speed limit of light without the presence of a media.Light itself for example can go faster than the speed of light it can actually go at infinite speed as was recently demonstrated it just needs a media to do itit doesnt really look as if a media is required now does it.so basically as long as you have a force that is capableof accelerating matter that matter willeventually reach and surpass c. _________________________ 3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science. Top
 #50775 - 01/15/14 02:03 AM Re: How motion can glue two mass m - atomic bond ? [Re: paul] Orac Megastar Registered: 05/20/11 Posts: 2819 Loc: Currently Illinois, USA The matter isn't moving faster than the speed of light you haven't resolved the problem of the arc spiral Let me know if you get stuck working it out the torch example is easier to see the problem because you will end up with the problem does light move in a straight line or does it follow the arc movement. Edited by Orac (01/15/14 02:07 AM) _________________________ I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you. Top
 #50776 - 01/15/14 02:06 AM Re: How motion can glue two mass m - atomic bond ? [Re: Orac] paul Megastar Registered: 03/21/06 Posts: 4136 I dont need to resolve any problem.if the proton were being accelerated along a straight linethe proton would still reach and exceed c.for instance a infinitely long and straight accelerator. ( linear )and the accelerator is not bound to the earth or its rotation.it is in space.and as long as there is a force that is accelerating the proton it will continue to accelerate further beyond c. _________________________ 3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science. Top
 #50777 - 01/15/14 02:08 AM Re: How motion can glue two mass m - atomic bond ? [Re: paul] Orac Megastar Registered: 05/20/11 Posts: 2819 Loc: Currently Illinois, USA If that is what you want to believe then fine but you have a big problem light bends with motion then. Edited by Orac (01/15/14 02:09 AM) _________________________ I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you. Top
 #50778 - 01/15/14 02:14 AM Re: How motion can glue two mass m - atomic bond ? [Re: Orac] paul Megastar Registered: 03/21/06 Posts: 4136 if there is no motion then light will not bend because of motion.besides that emitted light from a light source will travel in a straight line.unless it is bent by an outside force acting on it.gravity , magnetic fields , traveling through a medium , etc... _________________________ 3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science. Top
 #50779 - 01/15/14 02:14 AM Re: How motion can glue two mass m - atomic bond ? newton Megastar Registered: 09/30/12 Posts: 1209 Quantum ?We speak here about Galileo !!! Natural fall down Law m-----earth-------m >>>>>>>>>> constant motion 30 km/smass m left or mass m right will be first n the Eart HISTORICAL BACKGROUND of the problem" Galileo postulated his relativity hypothesis: any two observers moving at constant speed and direction with respect to one another will obtain the same results for all mechanical experiments (it is understood that the apparatuses they use for these experiments move with them).This idea has a very important consequence: velocity is not absolute. This means that velocity can only be measured in reference to some object(s), and that the result of this measurment changes if we decide to measure the velocity with respect to a diferent refernce point(s). Imagine an observer traveling inside a windowless spaceship moving away from the sun at constant velocity. Galileo asserted that there are no mechanical experiments that can be made inside the rocket that will tell the occupants that the rocket is moving .The question ``are we moving'' has no meaning unless we specify a reference frame (are we moving with respect to that star'' is meaningful). This fact, formulated in the 1600's remains very true today and is one of the cornerstones of Einstein's theories of relativity." Edited by newton (01/15/14 02:16 AM) Top
 #50781 - 01/15/14 06:21 AM Re: How motion can glue two mass m - atomic bond ? [Re: Orac] paul Megastar Registered: 03/21/06 Posts: 4136 ahhh , the cult must be pressuring you to find some excuse.but that wont work , orac.when I said in reference to the earth , I meant to a point on the earth just outside the LHC where the measurement is taken.if an observer was standing on that point during that 1 second that the earth rotates 463 meters yet he is frozen to that point as the earth rotates , ie he sees the earth rotating beneath him then he would see the added 463 mps speed that the proton is traveling at.you have two points of reference here the observer and the proton.either point sees the speed as being faster than c.and the policeman was right in his speeding estimate , the person was speeding if you include the earths rotational speed , its like this is the year 13 billion + or so but we only count 2014 of those years.what we are discussing here is the speed of matter , if a proton sitting on top of your car it is already traveling at 463 mps if the car is motionless , because the car is traveling at 463 mps due to the earths rotation.if your car is on the equator and facing east and you drive it east at a speed of 1 mps then the proton sitting on top of your car is traveling at 464 mps because of the added 1 mps speed that your car is traveling at.needless to say we are only interested in the speed of the proton.and in this discussion we are only discussing the fact that real science has already caused matter to travel beyond the speed that light travels in a vacuum.and that science still adheres to the fake theories that claim that its not possible. _________________________ 3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science. Top
 #50782 - 01/15/14 06:49 AM Re: How motion can glue two mass m - atomic bond ? [Re: paul] Orac Megastar Registered: 05/20/11 Posts: 2819 Loc: Currently Illinois, USA So go back I count 7 posts and you askedOriginally Posted By: Paul1) where did I lie?2) when have I been deceitful?There you have your own answer you have done both lie and attempted a deceitful answer in 7 posts. You can't even admit you have no idea how the measurement was derived or it's reference you just try to use some twisting of words to escape the trap. Caught you like reeling in a stupid fish, hook line and sinker.See unlike stupid goat god liars I know exactly how we measure the speed of the LHC first hand, I am not relying on some 10th hand account of words in wikipedia. You claim still that some reference point will see the protons faster than the speed of light but sorry no it doesn't anyone with half a brain can work that out.So unless you can give me the exact description of how we measure the speed of the protons in the LHC you are making and being DECEITFUL BY DEFINITION.You have been caught out a number of times in this way.So does the great goat god in sky sanction or forgive your lies and deceit, does he sanction such behaviour or are you just a very bad goat god lover headed for a bad afterlife Edited by Orac (01/15/14 06:57 AM) _________________________ I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you. Top
 #50783 - 01/15/14 06:56 AM Re: How motion can glue two mass m - atomic bond ? [Re: Orac] paul Megastar Registered: 03/21/06 Posts: 4136 Im going to guess that the measuring instruments were not rotating around the LHC with the proton , orac.and that the speed was taken from a fixed position so thatit could be more accurate.and after all , your the one that gave the measurement orac.and all of your religion bashing serves no purpose.why do you always use your anti religion as a crutch when your faced with logic , I guess thats the way your brain deals with fight or flight. _________________________ 3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science. Top
 #50784 - 01/15/14 07:02 AM Re: How motion can glue two mass m - atomic bond ? [Re: paul] Orac Megastar Registered: 05/20/11 Posts: 2819 Loc: Currently Illinois, USA Originally Posted By: paulyour the one that gave the measurement orac.and all of your religion bashing serves no purpose.True I gave you a speed the same as the police example you need to know what is implied as the reference point.In both cases it isn't given you need understanding of what you are talking about.So you had no idea what my speed reference is and you went off on a stupidity exercise and got caught So instead of saying okay I realize I haven't understood the background of what you have told me you made up a pile of bullshit and tried to sell it as the truth.Now the question is why did you try and sell the pile of bullshit as truth because you have this religion versus science war thing going on. Something you now try and back away from and deny even though you are clearly wrote that exact thing in previous posts. You wanted an example of something going faster than the speed of light and you set about creating a bullshit argument to make it and when caught doing it you now try and play it all down. I was kind at the start I told you to think about the situation carefully ... SOMETHING YOU DIDN'T DO Edited by Orac (01/15/14 07:05 AM) _________________________ I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you. Top
 #50785 - 01/15/14 07:06 AM Re: How motion can glue two mass m - atomic bond ? [Re: Orac] paul Megastar Registered: 03/21/06 Posts: 4136 so are you now saying that the speed that you gave was a false measurement , or was it a true measurement?I found it on wiki. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Hadron_Collider Quote:At this energy the protons have a Lorentz factor of about 7,500 and move at about 0.999999991 c, or about 3 metres per second slower than the speed of light (c).you stated that the earths rotational speed was accounted for in the measurements , could you please post a link to that information. _________________________ 3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science. Top
 #50786 - 01/15/14 07:21 AM Re: How motion can glue two mass m - atomic bond ? [Re: paul] Orac Megastar Registered: 05/20/11 Posts: 2819 Loc: Currently Illinois, USA Its a true speed referenced to an electromagnetic wave in space.So in technical speak it is the speed of the proton including all movements that affect earth but do not affect an electromagnetic wave.So in your police example it is the 1650 Km/h number, if you want it referenced to earth surface you will need to take off the speed of earth which is actually complicated because of the spiral arc.Note these are still not an absolute speeds because the universe itself could be moving and the EM waves are in the universe they don't move relative to earth but they would move with the universe.Everything involving speed requires a reference point. _________________________ I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you. Top
 #50787 - 01/15/14 07:26 AM Re: How motion can glue two mass m - atomic bond ? [Re: Orac] paul Megastar Registered: 03/21/06 Posts: 4136 Quote:So in technical speak it is the speed of the proton including all movements that affect earth but do not affect an electromagnetic wave.where is the link that shows this information. _________________________ 3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science. Top
 #50788 - 01/15/14 07:52 AM Re: How motion can glue two mass m - atomic bond ? [Re: paul] Orac Megastar Registered: 05/20/11 Posts: 2819 Loc: Currently Illinois, USA Lubos does a reasonable semi readable version of a calculationhttp://motls.blogspot.com.au/2013/01/the-world-as-seen-by-lhc-protons.htmlHe even gives you the rather complicated proton's world line speed versus world line spacetime speed and even consequence of what the proton sees the LHC like which I sort of hinted at.The true actual precise calculation you do from the field movement in the LHC that the proton is synchronized with but it is well outside the scope of something that is going to found on the internet. If you really want it in layman or at least dumbed down Pete aka PMB may be your man because of his background.The magnetic controls over the LHC is just amazing it is even affected by the gravity from the moon which causes tides on the tunnelhttp://www.quantumdiaries.org/2012/06/07/is-the-moon-full-just-ask-the-lhc-operators/ Edited by Orac (01/15/14 08:25 AM) _________________________ I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you. Top
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