Welcome to
Science a GoGo's
Discussion Forums
Please keep your postings on-topic or they will be moved to a galaxy far, far away.
Your use of this forum indicates your agreement to our terms of use.
So that we remain spam-free, please note that all posts by new users are moderated.


The Forums
General Science Talk        Not-Quite-Science        Climate Change Discussion        Physics Forum        Science Fiction

Who's Online Now
0 members (), 92 guests, and 1 robot.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Posts
Top Posters(30 Days)
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,311
Megastar
OP Offline
Megastar
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,311
ALLEN GREGG, TV ONTARIO. INTRODUCES DR.NORMAN DOIDGE
--more on theme of philosophy and science.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3TQopnNXB

My 25 year-old granddaughter, who just graduated with honours in psychology, gave me two excellent books for Christmas: They are
1. THE BRAIN THAT CHANGES ITSELF--Stories of Personal Triumph from the Frontiers of Brain Science, by a medical doctor, Norman Doidge (a native of Toronto).

It has been named a NEW YORK TIMES BESTSELLER.

One reviewer writes, "The power of positive thinking finally gains scientific credibility. Mind-bending, miracle-making, reality-busting stuff... Straddles the gap between science and self-help."

Perhaps this thread should be in the science section--under the general heading PNEUMATOLOGY--study of the spirit (pneuma), as it relates to mind, soul, brain and body. I suggested this idea back in the 1960s.

Quote:
neuroplasticity
Web definitions


Neuroplasticity, also known as brain plasticity, is an umbrella term that encompasses both synaptic plasticity and non-synaptic plasticity—it refers to changes in neural pathways and synapses which are due to changes in behavior, environment and neural processes, as well as changes resulting ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroplasticity

========
Now, The Surprising Truth About Wheat, Carbs, and Sugar--Your Brain's Silent Killers
2. GRAIN BRAIN, by Dr. David Perlmutter.
http://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/he...ticle-1.1523359
===================

BUT, IN THE NAME OF KEEPING THINGS BALANCED, check out this article:
http://chriskresser.com/do-carbs-kill-your-brain

Last edited by Revlgking; 01/01/14 04:06 AM.

G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org
.
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,311
Megastar
OP Offline
Megastar
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,311
INTERESTING EGOS AND WHAT THEY SAID ABOUT THE EGO

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/keywords/ego.html

Me?
I am, therefore, I will to know.
I also will to do and grow;
And have a well-behaved ego.

My ego just spoke to me. She said: "I WILL behave, if you say something nice about ME, OK!"

I told her: "Well you ARE well-behaved, much of the time, but only when you WAKE up! Are AWARE and put your mind to it."


G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,311
Megastar
OP Offline
Megastar
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,311
Scientists who write to SAGG, I am curious: Who among you are familiar with the 2 books which I mentioned?

Surely, every serious reader concerned about the problem of OBESITY has heard of the book, WHEAT BELLY, right?

The following is from MACLEANS Magazine:
http://www2.macleans.ca/2011/09/20/on-th...ake-you-skinny/


G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 2,819
O
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
O
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 2,819
Can I do serious and complete testing which is possibly harmful on Human test subjects Rev K?

If you won't let me do that it's probably not science smile

This is a bit like education Nature versus Nurture you only let us take it so far laugh

http://blog.lib.umn.edu/wlas0006/1001/20...experiment.html

Dam morality always getting in the way of us scientists smile

Last edited by Orac; 01/07/14 02:44 AM.

I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,311
Megastar
OP Offline
Megastar
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,311
Orac, tell us some of what you have learned from the links I posted.

Now, keeping in mind that poisons don't count as food smile tell us some of the tests that you would like to do. Over to you.


G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 2,819
O
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
O
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 2,819
To answer you will take some discussion of backgrounds and to do that we need to start with a interesting disorder.

Are you aware of the controversy around Multiple Personality Disorder and if not ask your grand-daughter about it.

There are two very hostile and different views on it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissociative_identity_disorder

Quote:

DID is among the most controversial of the dissociative disorders, and among the most controversial disorders found in the DSM-IV-TR. The primary dispute is between those who believe DID is caused by traumatic stresses forcing the mind to split into multiple identities, each with a separate set of memories, and the belief that the symptoms of DID are produced artificially by certain psychotherapeutic practices or patients playing a role they believe appropriate for a patient suffering from DID. The debate between the two positions is characterized by intense disagreement.


So one group believes you can have multiple personalities and one group says no just those treating patients who believe in the disorder diagnose it because it fits their belief.

So here we have a problem for your discussion because if we have a personality we must have a self EGO .. correct?

So do you agree that an ego = a personality or are we going to have to define and talk around this concept.

This particular problem overshadows any view we can have on EGO in my opinion but you may have a different view.

I could settle the argument but you aren't going to like what I do to some of the people claiming they have Multiple personality Disorder smile

Multiple personalities makes life interesting because you could have a very religious EGO mixed with a very Anti-Religious EGO ... does the person get sent to heaven or hell ... that is a joke smile

Hmm actually that is an interesting religious questions can one have multiple souls within the same body .. Roman Catholics do exorcisms so I guess they say yes how about you Rev K.

Last edited by Orac; 01/07/14 06:08 AM.

I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,311
Megastar
OP Offline
Megastar
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,311
[quote=Orac]... There are two very hostile and different views on it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissociative_identity_disorder ... So here we have a problem for your discussion, because if we have a personality we must have a self EGO .. correct?
========================================
My answer:Correct! But this does not mean that the ego has to be a selfish one. Keep in mind, Orac, what I write here is my opinion. I always respect the opinion of others and make no claim that I have the last word.

SOMA, PSYCHE & PNEUMA--three essential components

The Greek above comes from the Greek used in Jesus' day. It was the language in which all the New Testament was written. Pneuma, in NT Greek literally means air, wind, breathe of life. Read John 4:1-42.

There you will read a story about Jesus when--contrary to the culture of the times in which he lived--he, as one who chose to be a positive and unselfish ego had a long conversation with a "Samaritan Woman.

Also, unlike most of his fellow Jews, Jesus chose not to despise the Samaritans, who had their own religion and culture, which they held to The Truth. Nor did he think of women as inferior. To the woman he defines 'god' like this: "God is Spirit (pneuma ho theos)".

I AM AN EVOLUTIONIST, NOT A CREATIONIST

Pneuma, for me, is a very inclusive term. As an evolutionist, I cannot, with due respect to their opinion, accept what Bible-believing creationists believe to be true.
==============================
[color:#000000]INTERESTINGLY,THERE ARE TWO DIFFERENT CREATION STORIES IN GENESIS
The first one begins at Genesis 1 and ends at 2a.
Genesis 1:26-28 is the sixth day and the creation of people:

Good News Translation (GNT)

26 Then God said, “And now we will make human beings; they will be like us and resemble us. They will have power over the fish, the birds, and all animals, domestic and wild, large and small.”

27 So God created human beings, making them to be like himself. He created them male and female,

28 blessed them, and said, “Have many children, so that your descendants will live all over the earth and bring it under their control. I am putting you in charge of the fish, the birds, and all the wild animals.


===================
THE SECOND STORY BEGINS IN GENESIS 2:4b

This is a tragic myth--a story used to teach an idea. It is told in Genesis 2:4b to the end of Chapter 5.

There are some happy moments in the story, but it does not have a happy ending--only more opportunities to evolve and get things right.

The Adam and Eve myth make no rational sense to the modern mind. Adam was created first and Eve was an extension of him.
===============

I think of myself as a spiritually-minded being, a pneuma being--one with the ability to be fully aware and consciously say, I am, therefore, I have the willpower--the kind that enables us think, learn, know, act, do and grow into the kind of future--physically, mentally and spiritually we desire for us and others.

As a pneuma being, I have a soul, a mind, a body. a personality, an attitude, character and the ability to be aware of the times in which we live.

BUT BEWARE: SPIRITUALITY CAN BE A FORCE FOR EVIL AS WELL AS GOOD

We are not, automatically, saintly, good, humane, conscientious, moral, ethical and loving people.

Some of us are the hypocrites, con-artists, psychopaths, sociopaths, criminals, (including the Tudors, Napoleons, Borgia popes, Hitlers, Stalins, Bloody Marys, Mata Haris) and so on, of the world.

HUMAN BEINGS, ANIMAL BEINGS

But what is it that makes us, as part of the animal kingdom, different from members of the animal kingdom who thrive on eating other animals?

My response is: With the exception of the psychopaths & sociopaths among us, most of us seem to have positive egos enough that we at least get a bad conscience when we do others wrong, or fail to help others in need. So do not despair, a bad conscience--like a sense of sin--is a good thing to have. It is simply one that is doing its duty. Listen to it.

Instinct-driven wolves and other predator animals--ones that live off killing other animals, including their own, especially the young and vulnerable--do not seem to have a bad conscience about being killers. The combination of the survival instinct and hunger drives them to do what they do. Human-like psychopaths & sociopaths also seem to have no conscience. [more on this]



Last edited by Revlgking; 01/08/14 04:30 AM. Reason: Always helpful

G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 2,819
O
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
O
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 2,819
Ok I follow and to some extent would agree with most of your views but I have a problem and it goes back to our discussion of multiple personality disorder and it's diagnosis

You say => Human-like psychopaths & sociopaths also seem to have no conscience

Going back to the problem above are these conditions real or are you creating these personalities because of your belief.

This is the problem I have with psychology/psychiatry from a science point of view it's hard to work out if we aren't creating the effect.

So in essence I agree with your thrust but I am careful about labeling it a condition to a group of people. At first this may seem like an avoidance strategy but I have deeper misgivings.

Go back to my question to you can a body have multiple souls.What is the relationship between a soul and an ego are they one to one. See most religions and even we non religious folk tend to talk about saving our souls we don't talk about saving our ego identity. So the deeper question is does my ego = my soul.

This opens up into a full scale problem if you accept multiple personality disorder where you could have 1 sinner and 1 saint literally in the same body. Take it to the usual movie criminal extreme that one personality kills is the other personality condemned because of the action of the other.

I realize these are very tricky situations and as you aren't using a Avatar like me Rev K they can be difficult for you to openly discuss freely but even a guarded thought on the matter if you like. I do appreciate how tricky this is for you and I am not trying to cause you problems.


I should add I think that multiple personality disorder seems like it is a complete pile of rubbish. I have no experience with it or even any study of it but just basing it on science logic from what I know so take my view with a grain of salt. What I really find problematic is that personalities can become active if another personality is "stressed" that implies that the personalities are aware of each other even if denied by the current active personality. Unless you could prove that the switch was caused by something chemical like adrenaline or serotonin levels and that is easily testable then the personalities have to be aware of each there is no other choice the personalities just decide to block that out.

Last edited by Orac; 01/08/14 04:59 AM.

I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,249
T
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
T
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,249
Ego is the connecting link between consciousness "the soul" and the identity of consciousness as the living (human) manifestation. How it is programmed is how it filters information between the two points. What it is capable of is limited only by what is believed as "real" and "illusion".

From the book "Evolving Dharma" by Jay Michaelson

CHAPTER 2
NEW EVIDENCE
The Science of Brainhacking
Brainhacking works. By following a few simple instructions, you can, over time, change the nature of your brain to make it more resilient, more resistant to aging, and more capable of happiness, compassion, and clarity. The data is in, and it matters.
It matters, in fact, in two distinct ways. First, as this hard data filters through the U.S. healthcare industry, the educational System, the military, and the corporate world, to name just a few examples, it will become clear that mindfulness is among the most cost-effective methods ever for reducing hospital stays, advancing educational opportunity, and improving the functioning of organizations. This will be a game-changer. Second, the science changes how the dharma is even to be understood. This hard data is the opposite of soft spatiality. Meditation and mindfulness are tools, not a set of spiritual exercises whose merit depends on faith or some unknown forces. This is why I've used the word "technology" in describing the work of meditation, why Kenneth Folk calls it a form of "contemplative Fitness," and why I like the term "brainhacking". We're not referring here to actual, physical technologies like electrodes or vibrating plants or special sounds that put you into an altered state (although all of these exist). Rather, when I say "technology” I'm thinking how meditation and mindfulness are tools—processes that lead predictable results.
When people go to the gym, for example, they know pretty much what's going to happen, and how it's going to happen. Lifting weights causes muscles to stretch and even tear a little, causing lactic acid to build up, causing the muscles to rebuild themselves bigger and with more capacity than they had before. It's a physical process, and while trainers will debate the best methods until end of time, the basic operation is clearly understood. Meditation is similar. If you do the work, predictable changes in the mind (experience) and the brain (neuroscience) tend to result, in a fairly reliable way. This, in a sense, is the very opposite of spirituality—and it’s certainly not religion either. It's more like working out: Each time I come back to the breath, I'm strengthening very specific neural networks. This perspective has already informed how millions of people around the world are enhancing their mental and emotional capacities. And the revolution has only just begun.
The Monk in the Machine
"Contemplative neuroscience”. The term, and the field, didn’t exist twenty years ago, but now it is changing how we understand the brain and how to optimize its function. In 1980, not a single article was published in a scientific journal on the effects of meditation and mindfulness. In 1990, there were five. In 2000, twenty-one. But in 2010, there were 353; in 2011, 397; and in 2012, there were 526.2 Scientists have measured mindfulness's capacity to reduce stress, improve immune response, and so on; they have detected activation in different parts of the brain during meditation; and they’ve conducted long-term studies of experienced meditators, beginning meditators, and even children practicing mindfulness in hospital settings.3
In the last ten years, there's been a small raft of books explaining how meditation changes the brain and specifically increases its capacities for calm, compassion, generosity, and other virtues. Richard Davidson's The Emotional Life of Your Brain, Norman Dodge’s popular The Brain That Changes Itself , Rick Hanson's books including Buddha’s Brain and Meditations to Change Your Brain, Allan Wallace's Buddhism and Science: Breaking New Ground, Jeffrey Schwartz and Sharon Begley's The Mind and the Brain: Neuroplasti4 the Power of Mental Force, Daniel Siegel's The Mindful Brain, John Arden's Rewire Your Brain, and a dozen other such volumes describe, often in usefully meticulous detail, the ways in which neuroscientists have been able to measure the increases in brain activity n capacity in areas correlated with positive mental capabilities. Fortunately for both of us, we will not be reviewing all of these findings here. But I do want to focus on two general types: clinical/ behavioral and neurological. The first data set tells us what meditation does clinically, as measured by changes in behavior and mental health, the second set tells us how this happens in the brain.
One way in which studies have obtained the first type of data is to measure the effects of MBSR, the meditation and relaxation regimen that we discussed in the last chapter. Its effects have been measured by hundreds of research papers, more than forty projects at the national Institutes of Health,4 and by mainstream scientists at mainstream universities, including UCLA's Mindful Awareness Research Center, the University of Wisconsin's Center for the Investigation of Healthy Minds, and labs at Yale, Brown, Duke, and elsewhere. In one long-term study, for example, Jon Kabat-Zinn showed that 25 chronic pain patients who were taught MBSR reported improvements in symptoms and mood, as well as fewer hospital visits.5 (Interesting, the study showed no diminishment of pain intensity; in other words, the patients were experiencing the same degree of pain but coping with it better.) MBSR has been shown to reduce stress and anxiety by a number of measures: heart rate, cortisol levels, a shift in the left frontal activity of the brain, and course people reporting that they're not as stressed out as they used to be.6 More broadly, here are some of the things mindfulness is been shown to do:
• Cut the relapse rate in half for patients suffering from depression7
• Reduce loneliness among elderly people8
• Quadruple the speed of healing from psoriasis9
• Improve overall immune function10
• Lower the rate of relapse among recovering addicts11
• Improve attention, planning, and organizational skills among grade-school students12
• Lower stress among breast cancer survivors13
• Reduce the side effects of organ-transplant surgery14
• Reduce ADHD symptoms in children15
• Relieve anxiety and depression in people with social anxiety disorder16
• Help patients manage chronic pain17
• Improve memory in older adults, with attendant neural correlates (increased symmetry in the thalamus) measured by brain scans18
• Counter age-related declines in brain function and fluid intelligence (problem-solving, reasoning, and similar abilities)19
This really is just the tip of the iceberg. The entire remainder this book could be taken up with findings of this nature and the rate of study continues to increase. Perhaps most remarkably, any of these benefits begin accruing after short periods of time. In one study, just two weeks of meditating just a few minutes each day was shown to be more effective than simple relaxation at lowering stress responses.20 Even beginning mindfulness practitioners reported subjective improvements in awareness and nonreactivity21 Such findings have potentially huge societal and financial impact; imagine the value of a corporation improving its aging executives' mental abilities, or the impact of arresting memory loss in older adults. It’s no wonder some of the hype about this new science is so breathless, why Silicon Valley types gather at conferences like Wisdom 2.0 to talk about how to adapt mindfulness to the workplace and market it to consumers everywhere. (More on that in Chapter Seven.) Meditation may be the ultimate disruptive technology.

Until very recently, however, it was not known how these changes in resilience and behavior came about. That has begun to change with the advent of contemplative neuroscience, and, in particular, our (only) fifteen-year-old understanding of neuroplasticity22 . Neuroplasticity is the brain's ability to change itself, to paraphrase Norman Doidge,23 in response to learning, experience, and other stimuli. Scientists used to think that brain development more or less ended at adolescence. Now we know that isn't true, and that, just like building muscles, you can build capacity in various regions of the brain throughout your life. This is true when you meditate, when you learn a new skill, and when you habituate yourself to various stimuli. A favorite example of neuroscientists is the study done on the brains of London taxi drivers, which found that the regions of the brain associated with visual memory (essential for memorizing London's rabbit warren of streets) were significantly more developed among the taxi drivers than among the general public. Neuroplasticity can also have negative consequences: one example Doidge discusses is how the overuse of pornography rewires the brain's pleasure centers, causing it to need ever-more-exotic visual stimuli to generate the responses associated with arousal.24 As the saying goes (possibly coined by Doidge himself), neurons that fire together, wire together—for better or for worse.25
The myriad details of how Neuroplasticity works in different contexts are quite complicated; it’s not as simple as building up one part of the brain when you meditate, since various regions of the brain are involved in most activities.26 They are also exhaustively discussed in some of the volumes I listed above, and as a non-scientist I'm not inclined to reinvent that particular wheel here. Instead, I want to bullet-list out some of the neurological changes that have been found to result from extended meditation, to give a sense of what we are beginning to understand:
• While meditating, meditators show enhanced frontal brain activity, enhanced gamma power in the occipital cortex, and decreased frontal reactivity to distracting and unexpected stimuli.27
• When MBSR students focus on body parts, alpha waves increase in the areas of the brain corresponding to the areas of the body under attention.
• When Richard Davidson measured Tibetan monks doing compassion meditation, he measured gamma activity - "the high-frequency brain waves that underlie higher mental activity such as consciousness"—greater than ever recorded in scientific literature.28
• An fMRI scan on the same meditators showed heightened activity in the insula, also associated with emotion and consciousness.29
• When Davidson tested meditators after a three-month retreat in 2005, he found their "attentional blink"—the brief gap all of us experience when we try to pay attention—to be much less than that of ordinary people.30
• Long-term meditators were shown to require less brain activity to perform cognitive tasks than non-meditators.31
• Mindfulness revealed activation in the anterior cingulated cortex (ACC), a "crucial node in the attentional network”32
• Dr. Eileen Luders, in a series of studies, measured regional volumes in different parts of the brain, gray matter concentration, white matter fiber integrity, callosal thickness, hippocampal distances, and cortical gyrification—and found that meditators exceeded control subjects in every one of these measures.34
• One example in Luders' study: long term meditators' fractional anisotropy (FA) —basically, the degree of connectivity in the brain's white matter fibers—was higher than control groups' in twenty fiber tracks. This is important because FA decreases with age, causing (scientists think) many of the symptoms of senility. Yet Luders found that FA decreased much less for long-term meditators than for other people.35
• Long-term meditation increases cortical thickness in parts of the brain36 and increases gray matter volume.37 These long-term results Davidson analogizes to "measuring the strength of the biceps of a bodybuilder when he's not doing curls'38
As before, these neuroscientific data are but a sliver of a large and growing scientific literature. Let me try to put this into a lay person's terms, focusing on how one region of the brain, the amygdala, interacts with others. (Interestingly, this description of the amygdala has been taught to high-schoolers as part of the MindUP curriculum, funded by Goldie Hawn's charitable foundation.39) The amygdala is the part of the so-called "reptilian" brain, the brainstem, that reacts quickly to threats, that has saved your life dozens of times by instinctively getting you out of a dangerous situation, and by firing off quick "fight or flight" responses. We all depend on our amygdalas, but if we're controlled by them, we're apt to be their marionettes, jumping when they say jump, fearing whenever they perceive a threat. (Indeed, you can see how the amygdale can be manipulated during any political campaign.) Animalistic impulses to anger, desire, fear – this is what the amygdale produces. How does meditation affect the amygdala? Davidson found that after two weeks of training in loving kindness practice, there was less activity in the amygdale when subjects were shown distressing images.41 In other words, they didn't react as strongly. Meanwhile, other parts of the brain moderate the impulses of the amygdala are strengthened by meditation, including the medial prefrontal cortex, adjacent precuneus, and other areas necessary for self-regulation. For example, the prefrontal cortex is associated with body regulation, communication, emotional balance, response flexibility, empathy, insight, self-knowing awareness, and fear modulation—the last of which it accomplishes by releasing an inhibitory neurotransmitter (GABA) that actually counters the impulses of the amygdala.41 In a study of MBSR practitioners, left side prefrontal cortex activation tripled after four months of practice.42

In other words, activity in the reactive mind—the impulsive, want-it-don't-want-it, have-sex-with-it-or-kill-it parts of the brain- decreases with meditation, while activity in the reflective, regulatory, mind increases. (By way of comparison, it's generally understood that when limbic activity in the amygdala and hippocampus dominates prefrontal activity; the result is a psychopathology.) Anecdotally, this model does seem to correlate with the experiences many meditators, including this one, have had. A stimulus is present that normally causes aversion: a difficult family member, a perceived threat. Yet rather than immediately react, meditators sometimes report a "spaciousness" around the negative stimulus. I want to lash out, but ok I don't have to. It seems to me that the physical processes these neuroscientists are describing do correlate to the mental-experiential processes I experience. There's no way to know, as yet, exactly what physical processes accompany or cause these mental events, and certainly no way to know that through introspection. But “feeling fear but not acting on it" is a physical, chemical process, even if it is experienced subjectively as purely mental in nature. As Freud is reported to have said, "all our provisional ideas in psychology will presumably someday be based on organic substructure.”43
Why does all this matter? First, as Richie (as everyone calls Professor Davidson) said to me,
The neuroscientific work provides a foundation that has enabled the incorporation of these practices in a wider swath of our culture. I see the work as creating openings in certain segments of healthcare and education that might not otherwise have been as receptive, by providing mechanisms, in modern scientific language, through which these dharma practices may actually be producing various effects. I think this has been extraordinarily helpful in these domains.
The science legitimizes the expansion of the dharma. It supports an overall view of the dharma not as religion, not as spirituality, but as a technology for upgrading the mind to be more resilient - "brainhacking,” if you like. Appearances notwithstanding, it is helpful to regard the zendo more like a gym than like a church or a synagogue. In addition to its efficacy in talking about the dharma with others, I have found this outlook to be profoundly liberating, and will discuss it in more detail in just a moment.
Now, as with all such findings, there remains a significant gap between the scientific data—couched, as it usually is, in cautious terms—and its inevitable oversimplifications. Davidson again:
There's a lot we don't know. People often think that we know that meditation has certain kinds of health impacts, but I think we know preciously little about that, and even less about how it may have those impacts. We know very little about the most effective ways of teaching these practices in a secular way... . We know almost nothing about what the optimal dosage, if you will, might be, and how that may vary across different kinds of individuals . . . we know a lot less in those domains than we think we know.
Even within the bounds of contemplative neuroscience, several methodological challenges remain: finding adequate control and comparison groups (there aren’t so many people with 10,000 hours of meditation experience out there – my own number is around 3,000.


Citations
1. See Richard Davidson, The Emotional Life of Your Brain (New York: Hudson Street Press, 2012), 183-97, describing the (very) rough early days of the field.
2. Black, "Hot Topics," 1-2; Tang, "Advances in Meditation Research."
3. Some of the recent studies include Judson Brewer et al., "Meditation Experience Is Associated with Differences in Default Mode Network Activity and Connectivity," Proceedings of the National Academy of Arts and Sciences 108, no. 50 (2011); Willoughby Britton et al., "Mindfulness Training Improves Polysomnographic and Subjective Sleep Profiles In Antidepressant Medication Users with Sleep Complaints," Psychotherapy and Psychosomatics 81, no 5. (2012); B. Rael Cahn and John Polich, "Meditation States and Traits: EEG, ERP, and Neuroimaging Studies," Psychological Bulletin 132, no. 2, (2006); A. Chiesa, A. Serretti, Jakobsen A.C., "Mindfulness: Top-down or Bottom-up Emotion Regulation Strategy? Clinical Psychology Review 33 no. 1 (2013); Veronique Taylor, et al. “Impact of Meditation Training on the Default Mode Network During a restful state,” Social Cognitive and Effective Neuroscience 8 No 1 (2013); Britta K Holzel, Et al, “How Does Mindfulness Meditation Work? Proposing Mechanisms of Action from a Conceptual and Neural Perspective” Perspectives on Psychological Science 6, no. 6 (2011); Zoran Josipovic et al., "lnfluence of Meditation on Anti-correlated Networks in the Brain,” Frontiers of Human Neuroscience 5, no. 183 (2011); Joseph Loizzo et al., "The Effect of a Contemplative Self-healing Program on Quality of Life in Women with Breast and Gynecological Cancers,” Alternative Therapies 16, no. 3 (2010); Eileen Luders, "Enhanced Brain Connectivity in Long-term Practitioners,” Neurolmage 57, Issue 4 (2011); Andrew B. Newberg et al., "Meditation Effects on Cognitive Function and Cerebral Flow in Subjects with Memory Loss: A Preliminary Study," Journal of Alzheimer’s Disease 20, no. 2 (2010); Aleeze Sattar Moss et al., "Effects of an Eight-Week Meditation Program 011 Mood and Anxiety in Patients with Memory Loss,” Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine 18, no. 1 (2012); Fox K.C.R. Zakarauskas P. Dixon M. L. Ellamil, M., Thompson E., and Christoff, K. (2012), "Meditation Experience Predicts Introspective Accuracy," PLoS ONE, 7(9), e45370.
4. See Boyce, Mindfulness Revolution, xiv.
5. Jon Kabat-Zinn, L. Lipworth, R. Burney, and W. Sehers, 'Four-year Follow-up of a Meditation-based Program for the Self-regulation of Chronic Pain; Treatment, Outcomes, and Compliance," The Clinical Journal of Pain, 3 no. 1(1987).
6. See Susan L. Smalley and Diana Winston, Fully Present, 105; Siegel, "Proven Benefits," in Boyce, Mindfulness Revolution, 138; Richard J. Davidson, The Emotional Life of Your Brain (New York: Hudson Street Press, 2012), 204.
7. Smalley and Winston, Fully Present, 108; Jeffrey M. Schwartz and Sharon Begley, The Mind and the Brain (New York: Regan Books, 2002), 249-50.
8. See Mark Wheeler, "Meditation Reduces Loneliness” UCLA Newsroom (website), August 14, 2012, http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portaI/ucla/meditation-reduces-loneliness-237463.aspx.
9. Siegel, "Proven Benefits' 138; Jon Kabat-Zinn, "Indra's Net at Work: The Mainstreaming of Dharma Practice in Society” in Watson, Batchelor, and Claxton eds., Psychology of Awakening, 225-49, 241-44.
10. Richard J. Davidson "Alterations in Brain and Immune Function Produced by Mindfulness Meditation," Psychosomatic Medicine, Vol. 65 No. 4 (2003).
11. Lawrence Peltz, "Mindfulness and Addiction Recovery' in Boyce, Mindfulness Revolution, 159-165.
12. Smalley and Winston, Fully Present, 219.
13. Davidson, Emotional Life, 201
14. Ibid.
15. Smaley and Winston, Fully Present, 155.
16. Ibid
17.Ibid
18. Andrew Newberg, "Meditation and Neurodegenerative Disease" (lecture, Advances in Meditation Research Conference, New York, January 17, 2013). Remarkably, Newberg's study showed changes in brain function after only eight weeks of practice.
19. Tim Gard, "Meditation Effects on Protecting against Age-related Deficits in Cognition and Associated Neuroimaging Measures" (lecture, Advances in Meditation Research Conference, New York, January 17, 2013). Lifestyle factors such as cognitive training, exercise, social engagement, and diet can also modify the rate of decline. Brenda L. Plassman et al., "Systematic Review: Factors Associated With Risk for and Possible Prevention of Cognitive Decline in Later Life," Annals of Internal Medicine 153, no. 3 (2010).
20. Yi-Yuan Tang, et al. "Central and Autonomic Nervous System Interaction Is Altered by Short-Term Meditation," PNAS, Vol. 106 No. 22 (2009).
21. R. A. Baer, et al, "Using Self- Report Assessment Methods to Explore Facets of Mindfulness." (2006) Assessment 13 (1), 27-45. See Siegel, Mindful Brain, 91-95.
22. See Jeff Warren, The Head Trip (New York: Random House, 2007), 300.
23. Norman Doidge, The Brain That Changes Itself (New York: Penguin, 2007).
24. Doidge, Brain That Changes, 109-12. Plasticity also accounts for how brains can become addicted. See www.beinghuman.org/article/interview-eric -nestler-dark-side-brain-plasticity.
25. Doidge, Brain That Changes, 114.
26. See Doidge, Brain That Changes, 113-14.
27. Rael Cahn, "Cultivation of Awareness: Neural Correlates to the Enhanced Clarity and Decreased Automated Reactivity During Vipassana Meditation" (lecture, Advances in Meditation Research Conference, New York, January 17, 2013).
28. Davidson, Emotional Life, 213-14.
29. Davidson, Emotional Life.
30. Davidson, Emotional Life, 208-09.
31. Smalley and Winston, Fully Present, 157.
32. Siegel, Mindful Brain, 111-114, citing Cahn and Polich, "Meditation States and Traits'
33. Davidson, Emotional Life, 216, citing Davidson (2007). Interestingly, the most experienced meditators showed less activity, suggesting the concentration practice was easier for them.
34. Eileen Luders, "Exploring Age-related Brain Degeneration in Long-Term Meditation Practitioners" (lecture, Advances in Meditation Research Conference, New York, January 17, 2013).
35. Eileen Luders et al., "Enhanced Brain Connectivity in Long-term Practitioners” Neurolmage Vol. 57, Issue 4 (2011). The subjects of Luders's used a variety of different practices, primarily Samatha, Vipassana, and zen, and had an average of twenty-three years of meditation experience.
36. Sara Lazar, et al, "Meditation Experience Is Associated with Increased Cortical Thickness' Neuroreport Vol. 16, No. 17 (2005).
37. Giussepe Pagnoni and Milios Cekic, "Age Effects on Gray Matter Volume and Attentional Performance in Zen Meditation' Neurobiology of Aging Vol. 28, Issue 10 (2007).
38. Davidson, Emotional Life, 184.
39. Ryan, Mindful Nation, 75-77.
40. Davidson, Emotional Life, at 222, citing Davidson 2007.
41. See Siegel, Mindful Brain, 337-362.
42. Davidson, Emotional Life, 204.
43. Quoted in Terence Gaussen, "The Development of Personhood and the Brain" in Watson, Batchelor, and Claxton, eds., Psychology of Awakening, 123-34.
44. On the methodological challenges, see Yi-Yuan Tang, Mary K. Rothbart, and Michael I. Posner, "Neural Correlates of Establishing, Maintaining, and Switching Brainstates," Trends in Cognitive Sciences 16, no. 6 (2012), On the limitations of small-scale research studies in general, see John P.A Ioannidis, "Why Most Published Research Findings are False," PLoS Med 2 no. 8 (August 2005): e124. On the limitations of self-reporting, Baer, et al "Using Self-Report Assessment Methods;" Willoughby Britton, "Mindful Binge Drinking and Blobology” Buddhist Geeks, www.buddhistgeeks .com/2012/1 1/video-mindful-binge-drinking-and-blobology/.
45. See Britton, "Mindful Binge Drinking and Blobology"
46. See David R. Vago and David Silversweig, "Self-awareness, Self-regulation and Self-transcendence (S-ART): A Framework for Understanding the Neurobiological Mechanisms of Mindfulness" Frontiers of Human Neuroscience, Vol. 6 No. 296 (2012).
47. Alissa Quart, "Neuroscience Under Attack' New York Times, Nov 23, 2012. www.nytimes.com/2012/11/25/opinion/sunday/neuroscience -under-attack.html. But see Gaussen, "Development," in Watson, 8 and Claxton, Psychology of Awakening, 124-25, noting that material-neurological and psychological accounts describe different levels of phenomena, and one need not reduce to the other.
48. Bernard Faure, "A Gray Matter: Another Look at Buddhism and Neuroscience” Tricycle, Winter 2012, 73. Unfortunately, Fauer himself overgeneralizes as well, describing mindfulness as "usually regarded as a rudimentary practice,” for example. This may be true of Vajrayana practitioners, but the Buddha described it as “the direct path to realization” – hardly rudimentary. Faure also alleges that the neuroscientific studies are in the service of a dark, pharmaceutical conspiracy. Since I am sure Faure knows as many of the researchers personally as I do, I am not sure how he can possibly make that charge. The ones I have met are sincerely motivated by curiosity and an optimism that the dharma can reduce suffering. If they wanted to make money from drug companies, they could have sold out long ago. Unfortunately, must of Faure’s article is a rant by an Orthodox Buddhist and Buddhist scholar who is unhappy that dharma has evolved beyond its traditional containers and contexts.


I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!




Joined: May 2011
Posts: 2,819
O
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
O
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 2,819
I wasted 5 minutes of my life translating that for what seems to be a promo for a book.

The only thing "Evolving Dharma" gave me was a rather large, how did they put it "brainhacking” with an axe to my brain.

I guess I should be kind and say the meaning and relevance was lost in translation.

Perhaps say it in your own words TT ... oh yeah I remember the problem ... perhaps I will just leave your posts alone in future and save us both some "brainhacking".

Last edited by Orac; 01/09/14 05:04 AM.

I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,311
Megastar
OP Offline
Megastar
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,311
ABOUT THE EGO AND HOLISTIC HEALTH

Check out: http://www.bu.edu/sth/
On a scholarship, I did a 2 year Program there, in 1954 & 1955. In 1954, the famous Rev. Martin Luther King was then just one of the 500 theology students, newly graduated as a minister. That was when I went in to do some post graduate studies. He was born, Jan.1s/29, almost exactly one year before I was--Jan. 14, 1930.

My Theme was:THE HISTORY OF IDEAS. For other info check out: http://www.lindsayking.ca

I now feel that my post graduate studies at Boston University got me started on the path of thinking, holistically, about health matters, and unitheistically, about beliefs that matter.
=============================

BTW, It was at BU that I became very curious about the value of hypnotism, which, to get away from the myths, peoples fears of mind control and the stage-like hocus pocus, I now call pneumatherapy.

For your information, I have found that
ALL HYPNOSIS IS SELF-HYPNOSIS


Some people are such good self-hypnotic subjects types that they can go into trance, even without being aware that they are doing so. And we need to be beware, it is a power that can be used for good, or ill.

In 1964, I discovered that my daughter, Catherine King (then just over 7 years old (now 57)--check her out on Face Book--had this ability as a young child.

For several reasons, she developed a life-threatening lung disease--and developed pneumonia five times that winter.

When she became deadly ill, with the approval of our family doctor and the ones at the hospital, I used pneumatherapy on her. To the amazement of all involved, within days she recovered. Went back to school, ever accelerated a grade, and was never bed-ridden again. The story, which I wrote, was published, by a reputable anthologist interested in such stories.

Good subjects are quite capable of doing self-hypnosis--even by accident--and convincing themselves that they are anyone they want and choose to be.

On more than one occasion, I--and I am a well-trained hypnotherapist--have help victims help themselves and thus get themselves out of the unhealthy state into which they had put themselves. This is such a simple process that it can be even be done over the phone, which I have often.

Virtually all victims of any kind of obsessive compulsive neurosis and addiction, can help themselves undo the process. As a volunteer with a prominent addiction centre in Toronto, I have helped hundreds of such victims do so. Because I was allowed to work with large groups.


G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 2,819
O
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
O
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 2,819
Thank you for your answer and story Rev K although I have some reservations about anyone with a sick child not seeking medical advice however so I am a little bit (sorry struggling for a word here .. not sure) worried???? concerned???? about such actions.

I think I understand the context of your message so I guess I would ask do you know if anyone has ever tried hypnosis on multiple personality disorder patients?


I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,249
T
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
T
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,249
Originally Posted By: Orac
perhaps I will just leave your posts alone in future and save us both some "brainhacking".
It would be less of a strain for you to not challenge the boundaries of the intellectual box (ego). wink


I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!




Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,311
Megastar
OP Offline
Megastar
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,311
Originally Posted By: Orac
Thank you for your answer and story Rev K although I have some reservations about anyone with a sick child not seeking medical advice however so I am a little bit (sorry struggling for a word here .. not sure) worried???? concerned???? about such actions.
Orac,
Quote:
not seeking medical advice
Are you BLIND? I thought you could read English!

Are you saying that I did not seek medical advice?Where did I say: I did NOT seek medical advice? Before I say more, I need your reply, OK!


G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 2,819
O
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
O
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 2,819
Sorry I had to get someone to translate it for me

I am told it is quite standard but the word approval doesn't work for me it translates funny .. if I replace it with the word consent it works for me

=> with the approval of our family doctor and the ones at the hospital,

It is one of those weird translation words your daughter in law is Persian ask her to translate that sentence.

Approval is something Allah or God gives or the very least a form of authority. The other use for me is a form or application. The use of the word "ones" was strange contextually for me as well. I am sure your daughter in law will get something close to what I got from that.

Google translate did a better job of the sentence and actually makes the substitution for me ..

Sigh >>> sorry tried posting the arabic translation but it wont appear correctly.

However if you cut and paste your sentence into google translate and send it back again you will see what it does


Your sentence comes back as

Originally Posted By: google translate

When infected with the deadly disease, with the consent of our family doctor and those in the hospital, I use pneumatherapy on her. To the surprise of all concerned, in a matter of days she recovered. I went back to school, ever-grade acceleration, bed and did not suffer again. The story that I wrote, and published, before anthologist reputable interested in such stories.


See how it substituted the word approval for consent, and "ones" to those which then makes perfect sense to me.

Approval is one of those horrible words ... Rigid is another that causes problems for me.

Last edited by Orac; 01/09/14 05:51 PM.

I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,311
Megastar
OP Offline
Megastar
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,311
Originally Posted By: Orac
Sorry I had to get someone to translate it for me

I am told it is quite standard but the word approval doesn't work for me it translates funny .. if I replace it with the word consent it works for me ...

... Approval is one of those horrible words ... Rigid is another that causes problems for me.
Orac, thanks for taking all that trouble. Joke-kingly--that is, with a smile and even with a good laugh I say, your response has my sincere approval!
==============
(I assume you know that BTW is an acronym and a short way of saying,'by the way')

So, BTW, this dialogue you and I are now having shows two things:

1. The value of using the dialogue method--that is, using questions and comments, preferably short ones--back and forth until there is real communication and understanding.

2. It is a win/win game, not a zero-sum (I-win,you-lose) game--the kind that too many politicians love to use. Real statesmen and women prefer the dialogue method.

PROFILES HELP
This is why I like to know at least a few things about people-- www.wondercafe.ca does this well--who write in social media like SAGG.

======
Orac, with your "approval" smile and/or consent, may I give you a few more details of my use of pneumatherapy--the kind of hypnotherapy used by the world famous Dr. Milton Erickson? I used his gentle method numerous times, and not just on my daughter.


G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 2,819
O
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
O
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 2,819
Funny enough I was reading about it because I had never heard of it. It wasn't making much sense so please do explain away.

Originally Posted By: Rev K
Orac, with your "approval" smile and/or consent, may I give you a few more details of my use of pneumatherapy


Careful I will have to answer Wallah I am not an authority smile

I am not sure if that poor joke will be understood by you (Wallah meaning)

Last edited by Orac; 01/10/14 04:49 PM.

I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,311
Megastar
OP Offline
Megastar
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,311
THE STORY OF HOW, WITH HELP, CATHERINE TURNED ON
THE FULL POWER OF HER BRAIN AND HER IMMUNE SYSTEM, THAT HELPS US HEAL OURSELVES



=====================================================

The following first-person story entitled: The Endless Power of the Human Spirit, is on the record in the anthology: EXTRAORDINARY EXPERIENCES—Personal accounts of the para-normal in Canada, by John R. Colombo, a skeptic and agnostic.


Colombo is no one's fool. I met with him on more than one occasion, including participating with him on media panels. This anthology, which is a gold mine of well-researched stories was brought together by this well-known anthologist (See also Colombo's Quotations) in 1989. The facts in the story were examined by many people, including the religion editor of the Toronto Star.

In the winter of 1963-1964 my eight-year-old daughter, Catherine (Born April 1, 1956) —ailing since she was two and a half—was seriously ill with her fifth bout of pneumonia that winter. Doctors at Children's Hospital, Toronto, told our doctor and my wife and I: "Catherine's lung problem is extremely serious. One more bout of pneumonia could kill her. Her lungs are extremely scarred. What she needs is new set of lungs." And since this was in the day before lung trans plantation, all that was recommended was more of the same.


ENTER PNEUMATHERAPY

The basic story in the anthology is about my interest in the relation between religion, faith, science and healing since my student days. Early on, I was influenced by the writings of religious psychologists such as Dr. William Parker and Elaine St. John (Prayer Can Change Your Life) and The Rev. and doctor of psychology, Leslie D. Weatherhead (Psychology, Religion and Healing). Still good reads.


In my thirties, with the help of, Allen Spraggett, then religion editor of the Toronto Star, I met the following great thinkers who were then on the cutting edge of research in science, faith and religion. They spoke at my churches. I followed their work, closely:


1. I met the researcher in matters having to do with religion and science, The Rev. Dr. Frankiln Loehr and invited him to my church and my home. I heard, first hand, from him how his experiments were conducted with close attention to details and the keeping of careful statistics.


2. I also met and studied with the Rev. Harold Crump, who visited and lectured in Toronto more than once, over the years. He was in his 80's, when I met him, and still dynamically alive and well.


Crump, a methodist minister, was actually trained as an electronics engineer. He had worked with the brilliant Charles P. Setinmetz--the wizzard of General Electric.

http://chem.ch.huji.ac.il/~eugeniik/history/steinmetz.html

Crump taught a spiritual/science philosophy which is still being taught. He was whiz at hypnosis. The program he taught is called Concept Therapy. I have much of the concept therapy literature.

http://www.concept-therapy.org/


WHAT I LEARNED FROM FATHER JOE HELPED SAVE MY DAUGHTER'S LIFE

Then I met the one who, specifically, helped me help my daughter, Catherine, recover from a potentially fatal disease. Now in the hereafter, Father Joe was an American Episcopalian canon and a priest, Father Joe Wittkofski, Charleroi, Pa., who had been drummed out of the Roman Catholic faith, by a narrow-minded bishop of his, because of his "weird" ideas. He became a priest in the Protestant Episcopal Church of the USA--an open-minded religion, not unlike the UCC, in many respects.


From him I took several private studies. Later, with a group of twenty students, I arranged to have him come and give a week-long—over thirty hours—seminar Following the seminar, he went back to his own church in Charleroi, Pa.


Before he left, I told him of my daughter's problem. His words to me, as he left for his home, were: "You now know how to use hypnotherapy within the context of spiritual, or faith healing. You can help your daughter, better that I can. Go to work. Because of the dumb law you have here in Ontario against non-medical therapists using hypnosis, it would be wise for you to speak to your family doctor. I would like to see you and your group get the law reformed."


With this knowledge, I approached our family doctor. I told him about Father Joe's work, what I had learned from him, and I loaned him a copy of the book by Father Joe: THE PASTORAL USE OF HYPNOTIC TECHNIQUE. I also told him that he was now back in Pa., but was willing to keep in touch, by phone.


Our doctor admitted to me that he was not skilled in hypnosis. But was I ever happy when he told me: "I have no objection to your following Canon Wittkofski's suggestion. Give hypnosis a try. I will be interested in what results you get.”


Then he added, "Anything you can do to help your daughter's immune system to kick in is okay with me. In the light of Children's Hospital prognosis, we have nothing to lose. The law, as I understand it, is toothless. I think it was brought into being for the convenience of a certain few with a vested interest in keeping control. I will not report you, and I will monitor your daughters condition as needed."


[BTW, years later, a group of us lobbied the provincial department of health. The law was reformed. Hypnosis is no longer considered just a medical procedure. Thank G~O~D!]


Encouraged by this and the desperate condition of Catherine, I went ahead. The details of what I said are in the anthology.


I used what now I call pneumatherapy—the spiritual application of hypnotic technique—hypnosis without the hype and hocus pocus. It is similar to what is now called neuro linguistic programming.

3. One of the early developers of NLP was the father of North American hypnosis, psychiatrist Dr. Milton Erickson. In my opinion, Dr. Erickson was a pneumatherapist.


4. Father and Canon Joseph Wittkofski, who was also trained in biology, taught me that hypnotic suggestion can influence the will and the imagination of individuals. This guides the mind and the body to awaken the extremely valuable auto-immune system.


A FULL RECOVERY TOOK PLACE

To the amazement of all involved, overnight, Catherine, began to recover from a disease that had been poised to kill her. The doctor was as good as his word. He kept a close watch on and monitored her condition. Within a very short time, Catherine was well enough to go back to school. She was never bed-ridden again. She is now 57.


BTW, sometime later (in the early 1970's), it was discovered that the full-spectrum anti-biotic, prescribed by her doctors to fight Catherine's pneumonias, was quietly removed from general usage.

It was discovered that it had a very negative effect on kidney functions and the immune systems of all patients.
Interesting.

Think of how many lives were saved by the use of PNEUMATHERAPY!

========================================
There is a SEQUEL




­


G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 2,819
O
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
O
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 2,819
I think the key thing here Rev K is you had monitoring in place, what worries me with many version of faith healing is they often don't or won't accept the monitoring in place because they view it as not having faith.

It reminds me of the joke which has a more serious context to this discussion.

There is a seaman who has such faith in his god one day he decides to show just how much faith he has in his god. He sets off in his boat with no food or water and sets a coarse directly out to open sea.

Sometime out a sea the coastguard patrol comes across the seaman quite some distance out to sea. They ask if he needs assistance and he says no I am perfectly fine and my god will save me. As they have no legal reason to intervene they leave him to sail on.

Sometime later and a lot further out at sea an oil rig crew transfer chopper sees the seaman and hovers down to check that he is okay. He replies he is perfectly fine and his god will save him and just go away, again with no right to intervene they leave.

Finally far far out at sea and a few days without food and water the seaman and his boat is surrounded by whales which start to nudge and push his boat in a definite direction. He yells and slaps at the whales forcing them to leave him and his boat alone.

The seaman dies and when he comes in front of god he protest god I believed in you that you would save me but you failed me.

GOD looked at the seaman and said firmly I sent you a coast guard, a chopper and a pack of whales to save you what more did you expect me to do?


The point is blind faith is very dangerous because you are not GOD smile

So I have no problem with faith healing so long as what is happening is monitored like it would be done in a normal medical situation. How would one know that GOD had not trained a doctor with the exact knowledge to save a patient anyhow just like the seaman joke smile

Last edited by Orac; 01/12/14 09:50 AM.

I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,311
Megastar
OP Offline
Megastar
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,311
Originally Posted By: Orac
I think the key thing here Rev K is you had monitoring in place...
YES! of course. You add,
Quote:
What worries me with many versions of faith healing is they often don't, or won't, accept the monitoring in place because they view it as not having faith.
Me? I like to say: A BLIND, IGNORANCE-BASED FAITH?--IT IS A WASTE OF TIME. About your joke
Originally Posted By: Orac
It reminds me of the joke which has a more serious context to this discussion...
ORAC, years ago, I used another version of this joke when I preached sermons on FAITH with 20/29 VISION. I made it clear to my listeners: BELIEVE ONLY WHAT MAKES SENSE, WHAT IS RATIONAL AND WHAT WORKS, ESPECIALLY FOR YOU. You say,
Quote:
The point is, blind faith is very, dangerous because you are not GOD smile
MY OPINION?: God, G0D, GOD, god, gods--are loaded words--loaded with all kinds of conditional meanings which we give to them. And they can be useful as long as we accept this to be so and explain how we use them.[/b]

And I will add: It is my opinion, that there are a lot of god-like people out there, people who use their willpower in a godly way--and the more there are, the better we all are and so is the world in which we all live.

There is no god, singular or plural--ones living in a dimensional world like we all do, as a thing or a person.Thank you for saying,
Quote:
So I have no problem with faith healing so long as what is happening is monitored like it would be done in a normal medical situation.


G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3

Link Copied to Clipboard
Newest Members
debbieevans, bkhj, jackk, Johnmattison, RacerGT
865 Registered Users
Sponsor

Science a GoGo's Home Page | Terms of Use | Privacy Policy | Contact UsokÂþ»­¾W
Features | News | Books | Physics | Space | Climate Change | Health | Technology | Natural World

Copyright © 1998 - 2016 Science a GoGo and its licensors. All rights reserved.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5