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ALLEN GREGG, TV ONTARIO. INTRODUCES DR.NORMAN DOIDGE
--more on theme of philosophy and science.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3TQopnNXB

My 25 year-old granddaughter, who just graduated with honours in psychology, gave me two excellent books for Christmas: They are
1. THE BRAIN THAT CHANGES ITSELF--Stories of Personal Triumph from the Frontiers of Brain Science, by a medical doctor, Norman Doidge (a native of Toronto).

It has been named a NEW YORK TIMES BESTSELLER.

One reviewer writes, "The power of positive thinking finally gains scientific credibility. Mind-bending, miracle-making, reality-busting stuff... Straddles the gap between science and self-help."

Perhaps this thread should be in the science section--under the general heading PNEUMATOLOGY--study of the spirit (pneuma), as it relates to mind, soul, brain and body. I suggested this idea back in the 1960s.

Quote:
neuroplasticity
Web definitions


Neuroplasticity, also known as brain plasticity, is an umbrella term that encompasses both synaptic plasticity and non-synaptic plasticity—it refers to changes in neural pathways and synapses which are due to changes in behavior, environment and neural processes, as well as changes resulting ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroplasticity

========
Now, The Surprising Truth About Wheat, Carbs, and Sugar--Your Brain's Silent Killers
2. GRAIN BRAIN, by Dr. David Perlmutter.
http://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/he...ticle-1.1523359
===================

BUT, IN THE NAME OF KEEPING THINGS BALANCED, check out this article:
http://chriskresser.com/do-carbs-kill-your-brain

Last edited by Revlgking; 01/01/14 04:06 AM.

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INTERESTING EGOS AND WHAT THEY SAID ABOUT THE EGO

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/keywords/ego.html

Me?
I am, therefore, I will to know.
I also will to do and grow;
And have a well-behaved ego.

My ego just spoke to me. She said: "I WILL behave, if you say something nice about ME, OK!"

I told her: "Well you ARE well-behaved, much of the time, but only when you WAKE up! Are AWARE and put your mind to it."


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Scientists who write to SAGG, I am curious: Who among you are familiar with the 2 books which I mentioned?

Surely, every serious reader concerned about the problem of OBESITY has heard of the book, WHEAT BELLY, right?

The following is from MACLEANS Magazine:
http://www2.macleans.ca/2011/09/20/on-th...ake-you-skinny/


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Can I do serious and complete testing which is possibly harmful on Human test subjects Rev K?

If you won't let me do that it's probably not science smile

This is a bit like education Nature versus Nurture you only let us take it so far laugh

http://blog.lib.umn.edu/wlas0006/1001/20...experiment.html

Dam morality always getting in the way of us scientists smile

Last edited by Orac; 01/07/14 02:44 AM.

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Orac, tell us some of what you have learned from the links I posted.

Now, keeping in mind that poisons don't count as food smile tell us some of the tests that you would like to do. Over to you.


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To answer you will take some discussion of backgrounds and to do that we need to start with a interesting disorder.

Are you aware of the controversy around Multiple Personality Disorder and if not ask your grand-daughter about it.

There are two very hostile and different views on it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissociative_identity_disorder

Quote:

DID is among the most controversial of the dissociative disorders, and among the most controversial disorders found in the DSM-IV-TR. The primary dispute is between those who believe DID is caused by traumatic stresses forcing the mind to split into multiple identities, each with a separate set of memories, and the belief that the symptoms of DID are produced artificially by certain psychotherapeutic practices or patients playing a role they believe appropriate for a patient suffering from DID. The debate between the two positions is characterized by intense disagreement.


So one group believes you can have multiple personalities and one group says no just those treating patients who believe in the disorder diagnose it because it fits their belief.

So here we have a problem for your discussion because if we have a personality we must have a self EGO .. correct?

So do you agree that an ego = a personality or are we going to have to define and talk around this concept.

This particular problem overshadows any view we can have on EGO in my opinion but you may have a different view.

I could settle the argument but you aren't going to like what I do to some of the people claiming they have Multiple personality Disorder smile

Multiple personalities makes life interesting because you could have a very religious EGO mixed with a very Anti-Religious EGO ... does the person get sent to heaven or hell ... that is a joke smile

Hmm actually that is an interesting religious questions can one have multiple souls within the same body .. Roman Catholics do exorcisms so I guess they say yes how about you Rev K.

Last edited by Orac; 01/07/14 06:08 AM.

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[quote=Orac]... There are two very hostile and different views on it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissociative_identity_disorder ... So here we have a problem for your discussion, because if we have a personality we must have a self EGO .. correct?
========================================
My answer:Correct! But this does not mean that the ego has to be a selfish one. Keep in mind, Orac, what I write here is my opinion. I always respect the opinion of others and make no claim that I have the last word.

SOMA, PSYCHE & PNEUMA--three essential components

The Greek above comes from the Greek used in Jesus' day. It was the language in which all the New Testament was written. Pneuma, in NT Greek literally means air, wind, breathe of life. Read John 4:1-42.

There you will read a story about Jesus when--contrary to the culture of the times in which he lived--he, as one who chose to be a positive and unselfish ego had a long conversation with a "Samaritan Woman.

Also, unlike most of his fellow Jews, Jesus chose not to despise the Samaritans, who had their own religion and culture, which they held to The Truth. Nor did he think of women as inferior. To the woman he defines 'god' like this: "God is Spirit (pneuma ho theos)".

I AM AN EVOLUTIONIST, NOT A CREATIONIST

Pneuma, for me, is a very inclusive term. As an evolutionist, I cannot, with due respect to their opinion, accept what Bible-believing creationists believe to be true.
==============================
[color:#000000]INTERESTINGLY,THERE ARE TWO DIFFERENT CREATION STORIES IN GENESIS
The first one begins at Genesis 1 and ends at 2a.
Genesis 1:26-28 is the sixth day and the creation of people:

Good News Translation (GNT)

26 Then God said, “And now we will make human beings; they will be like us and resemble us. They will have power over the fish, the birds, and all animals, domestic and wild, large and small.”

27 So God created human beings, making them to be like himself. He created them male and female,

28 blessed them, and said, “Have many children, so that your descendants will live all over the earth and bring it under their control. I am putting you in charge of the fish, the birds, and all the wild animals.


===================
THE SECOND STORY BEGINS IN GENESIS 2:4b

This is a tragic myth--a story used to teach an idea. It is told in Genesis 2:4b to the end of Chapter 5.

There are some happy moments in the story, but it does not have a happy ending--only more opportunities to evolve and get things right.

The Adam and Eve myth make no rational sense to the modern mind. Adam was created first and Eve was an extension of him.
===============

I think of myself as a spiritually-minded being, a pneuma being--one with the ability to be fully aware and consciously say, I am, therefore, I have the willpower--the kind that enables us think, learn, know, act, do and grow into the kind of future--physically, mentally and spiritually we desire for us and others.

As a pneuma being, I have a soul, a mind, a body. a personality, an attitude, character and the ability to be aware of the times in which we live.

BUT BEWARE: SPIRITUALITY CAN BE A FORCE FOR EVIL AS WELL AS GOOD

We are not, automatically, saintly, good, humane, conscientious, moral, ethical and loving people.

Some of us are the hypocrites, con-artists, psychopaths, sociopaths, criminals, (including the Tudors, Napoleons, Borgia popes, Hitlers, Stalins, Bloody Marys, Mata Haris) and so on, of the world.

HUMAN BEINGS, ANIMAL BEINGS

But what is it that makes us, as part of the animal kingdom, different from members of the animal kingdom who thrive on eating other animals?

My response is: With the exception of the psychopaths & sociopaths among us, most of us seem to have positive egos enough that we at least get a bad conscience when we do others wrong, or fail to help others in need. So do not despair, a bad conscience--like a sense of sin--is a good thing to have. It is simply one that is doing its duty. Listen to it.

Instinct-driven wolves and other predator animals--ones that live off killing other animals, including their own, especially the young and vulnerable--do not seem to have a bad conscience about being killers. The combination of the survival instinct and hunger drives them to do what they do. Human-like psychopaths & sociopaths also seem to have no conscience. [more on this]



Last edited by Revlgking; 01/08/14 04:30 AM. Reason: Always helpful

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Ok I follow and to some extent would agree with most of your views but I have a problem and it goes back to our discussion of multiple personality disorder and it's diagnosis

You say => Human-like psychopaths & sociopaths also seem to have no conscience

Going back to the problem above are these conditions real or are you creating these personalities because of your belief.

This is the problem I have with psychology/psychiatry from a science point of view it's hard to work out if we aren't creating the effect.

So in essence I agree with your thrust but I am careful about labeling it a condition to a group of people. At first this may seem like an avoidance strategy but I have deeper misgivings.

Go back to my question to you can a body have multiple souls.What is the relationship between a soul and an ego are they one to one. See most religions and even we non religious folk tend to talk about saving our souls we don't talk about saving our ego identity. So the deeper question is does my ego = my soul.

This opens up into a full scale problem if you accept multiple personality disorder where you could have 1 sinner and 1 saint literally in the same body. Take it to the usual movie criminal extreme that one personality kills is the other personality condemned because of the action of the other.

I realize these are very tricky situations and as you aren't using a Avatar like me Rev K they can be difficult for you to openly discuss freely but even a guarded thought on the matter if you like. I do appreciate how tricky this is for you and I am not trying to cause you problems.


I should add I think that multiple personality disorder seems like it is a complete pile of rubbish. I have no experience with it or even any study of it but just basing it on science logic from what I know so take my view with a grain of salt. What I really find problematic is that personalities can become active if another personality is "stressed" that implies that the personalities are aware of each other even if denied by the current active personality. Unless you could prove that the switch was caused by something chemical like adrenaline or serotonin levels and that is easily testable then the personalities have to be aware of each there is no other choice the personalities just decide to block that out.

Last edited by Orac; 01/08/14 04:59 AM.

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Ego is the connecting link between consciousness "the soul" and the identity of consciousness as the living (human) manifestation. How it is programmed is how it filters information between the two points. What it is capable of is limited only by what is believed as "real" and "illusion".

From the book "Evolving Dharma" by Jay Michaelson

CHAPTER 2
NEW EVIDENCE
The Science of Brainhacking
Brainhacking works. By following a few simple instructions, you can, over time, change the nature of your brain to make it more resilient, more resistant to aging, and more capable of happiness, compassion, and clarity. The data is in, and it matters.
It matters, in fact, in two distinct ways. First, as this hard data filters through the U.S. healthcare industry, the educational System, the military, and the corporate world, to name just a few examples, it will become clear that mindfulness is among the most cost-effective methods ever for reducing hospital stays, advancing educational opportunity, and improving the functioning of organizations. This will be a game-changer. Second, the science changes how the dharma is even to be understood. This hard data is the opposite of soft spatiality. Meditation and mindfulness are tools, not a set of spiritual exercises whose merit depends on faith or some unknown forces. This is why I've used the word "technology" in describing the work of meditation, why Kenneth Folk calls it a form of "contemplative Fitness," and why I like the term "brainhacking". We're not referring here to actual, physical technologies like electrodes or vibrating plants or special sounds that put you into an altered state (although all of these exist). Rather, when I say "technology” I'm thinking how meditation and mindfulness are tools—processes that lead predictable results.
When people go to the gym, for example, they know pretty much what's going to happen, and how it's going to happen. Lifting weights causes muscles to stretch and even tear a little, causing lactic acid to build up, causing the muscles to rebuild themselves bigger and with more capacity than they had before. It's a physical process, and while trainers will debate the best methods until end of time, the basic operation is clearly understood. Meditation is similar. If you do the work, predictable changes in the mind (experience) and the brain (neuroscience) tend to result, in a fairly reliable way. This, in a sense, is the very opposite of spirituality—and it’s certainly not religion either. It's more like working out: Each time I come back to the breath, I'm strengthening very specific neural networks. This perspective has already informed how millions of people around the world are enhancing their mental and emotional capacities. And the revolution has only just begun.
The Monk in the Machine
"Contemplative neuroscience”. The term, and the field, didn’t exist twenty years ago, but now it is changing how we understand the brain and how to optimize its function. In 1980, not a single article was published in a scientific journal on the effects of meditation and mindfulness. In 1990, there were five. In 2000, twenty-one. But in 2010, there were 353; in 2011, 397; and in 2012, there were 526.2 Scientists have measured mindfulness's capacity to reduce stress, improve immune response, and so on; they have detected activation in different parts of the brain during meditation; and they’ve conducted long-term studies of experienced meditators, beginning meditators, and even children practicing mindfulness in hospital settings.3
In the last ten years, there's been a small raft of books explaining how meditation changes the brain and specifically increases its capacities for calm, compassion, generosity, and other virtues. Richard Davidson's The Emotional Life of Your Brain, Norman Dodge’s popular The Brain That Changes Itself , Rick Hanson's books including Buddha’s Brain and Meditations to Change Your Brain, Allan Wallace's Buddhism and Science: Breaking New Ground, Jeffrey Schwartz and Sharon Begley's The Mind and the Brain: Neuroplasti4 the Power of Mental Force, Daniel Siegel's The Mindful Brain, John Arden's Rewire Your Brain, and a dozen other such volumes describe, often in usefully meticulous detail, the ways in which neuroscientists have been able to measure the increases in brain activity n capacity in areas correlated with positive mental capabilities. Fortunately for both of us, we will not be reviewing all of these findings here. But I do want to focus on two general types: clinical/ behavioral and neurological. The first data set tells us what meditation does clinically, as measured by changes in behavior and mental health, the second set tells us how this happens in the brain.
One way in which studies have obtained the first type of data is to measure the effects of MBSR, the meditation and relaxation regimen that we discussed in the last chapter. Its effects have been measured by hundreds of research papers, more than forty projects at the national Institutes of Health,4 and by mainstream scientists at mainstream universities, including UCLA's Mindful Awareness Research Center, the University of Wisconsin's Center for the Investigation of Healthy Minds, and labs at Yale, Brown, Duke, and elsewhere. In one long-term study, for example, Jon Kabat-Zinn showed that 25 chronic pain patients who were taught MBSR reported improvements in symptoms and mood, as well as fewer hospital visits.5 (Interesting, the study showed no diminishment of pain intensity; in other words, the patients were experiencing the same degree of pain but coping with it better.) MBSR has been shown to reduce stress and anxiety by a number of measures: heart rate, cortisol levels, a shift in the left frontal activity of the brain, and course people reporting that they're not as stressed out as they used to be.6 More broadly, here are some of the things mindfulness is been shown to do:
• Cut the relapse rate in half for patients suffering from depression7
• Reduce loneliness among elderly people8
• Quadruple the speed of healing from psoriasis9
• Improve overall immune function10
• Lower the rate of relapse among recovering addicts11
• Improve attention, planning, and organizational skills among grade-school students12
• Lower stress among breast cancer survivors13
• Reduce the side effects of organ-transplant surgery14
• Reduce ADHD symptoms in children15
• Relieve anxiety and depression in people with social anxiety disorder16
• Help patients manage chronic pain17
• Improve memory in older adults, with attendant neural correlates (increased symmetry in the thalamus) measured by brain scans18
• Counter age-related declines in brain function and fluid intelligence (problem-solving, reasoning, and similar abilities)19
This really is just the tip of the iceberg. The entire remainder this book could be taken up with findings of this nature and the rate of study continues to increase. Perhaps most remarkably, any of these benefits begin accruing after short periods of time. In one study, just two weeks of meditating just a few minutes each day was shown to be more effective than simple relaxation at lowering stress responses.20 Even beginning mindfulness practitioners reported subjective improvements in awareness and nonreactivity21 Such findings have potentially huge societal and financial impact; imagine the value of a corporation improving its aging executives' mental abilities, or the impact of arresting memory loss in older adults. It’s no wonder some of the hype about this new science is so breathless, why Silicon Valley types gather at conferences like Wisdom 2.0 to talk about how to adapt mindfulness to the workplace and market it to consumers everywhere. (More on that in Chapter Seven.) Meditation may be the ultimate disruptive technology.

Until very recently, however, it was not known how these changes in resilience and behavior came about. That has begun to change with the advent of contemplative neuroscience, and, in particular, our (only) fifteen-year-old understanding of neuroplasticity22 . Neuroplasticity is the brain's ability to change itself, to paraphrase Norman Doidge,23 in response to learning, experience, and other stimuli. Scientists used to think that brain development more or less ended at adolescence. Now we know that isn't true, and that, just like building muscles, you can build capacity in various regions of the brain throughout your life. This is true when you meditate, when you learn a new skill, and when you habituate yourself to various stimuli. A favorite example of neuroscientists is the study done on the brains of London taxi drivers, which found that the regions of the brain associated with visual memory (essential for memorizing London's rabbit warren of streets) were significantly more developed among the taxi drivers than among the general public. Neuroplasticity can also have negative consequences: one example Doidge discusses is how the overuse of pornography rewires the brain's pleasure centers, causing it to need ever-more-exotic visual stimuli to generate the responses associated with arousal.24 As the saying goes (possibly coined by Doidge himself), neurons that fire together, wire together—for better or for worse.25
The myriad details of how Neuroplasticity works in different contexts are quite complicated; it’s not as simple as building up one part of the brain when you meditate, since various regions of the brain are involved in most activities.26 They are also exhaustively discussed in some of the volumes I listed above, and as a non-scientist I'm not inclined to reinvent that particular wheel here. Instead, I want to bullet-list out some of the neurological changes that have been found to result from extended meditation, to give a sense of what we are beginning to understand:
• While meditating, meditators show enhanced frontal brain activity, enhanced gamma power in the occipital cortex, and decreased frontal reactivity to distracting and unexpected stimuli.27
• When MBSR students focus on body parts, alpha waves increase in the areas of the brain corresponding to the areas of the body under attention.
• When Richard Davidson measured Tibetan monks doing compassion meditation, he measured gamma activity - "the high-frequency brain waves that underlie higher mental activity such as consciousness"—greater than ever recorded in scientific literature.28
• An fMRI scan on the same meditators showed heightened activity in the insula, also associated with emotion and consciousness.29
• When Davidson tested meditators after a three-month retreat in 2005, he found their "attentional blink"—the brief gap all of us experience when we try to pay attention—to be much less than that of ordinary people.30
• Long-term meditators were shown to require less brain activity to perform cognitive tasks than non-meditators.31
• Mindfulness revealed activation in the anterior cingulated cortex (ACC), a "crucial node in the attentional network”32
• Dr. Eileen Luders, in a series of studies, measured regional volumes in different parts of the brain, gray matter concentration, white matter fiber integrity, callosal thickness, hippocampal distances, and cortical gyrification—and found that meditators exceeded control subjects in every one of these measures.34
• One example in Luders' study: long term meditators' fractional anisotropy (FA) —basically, the degree of connectivity in the brain's white matter fibers—was higher than control groups' in twenty fiber tracks. This is important because FA decreases with age, causing (scientists think) many of the symptoms of senility. Yet Luders found that FA decreased much less for long-term meditators than for other people.35
• Long-term meditation increases cortical thickness in parts of the brain36 and increases gray matter volume.37 These long-term results Davidson analogizes to "measuring the strength of the biceps of a bodybuilder when he's not doing curls'38
As before, these neuroscientific data are but a sliver of a large and growing scientific literature. Let me try to put this into a lay person's terms, focusing on how one region of the brain, the amygdala, interacts with others. (Interestingly, this description of the amygdala has been taught to high-schoolers as part of the MindUP curriculum, funded by Goldie Hawn's charitable foundation.39) The amygdala is the part of the so-called "reptilian" brain, the brainstem, that reacts quickly to threats, that has saved your life dozens of times by instinctively getting you out of a dangerous situation, and by firing off quick "fight or flight" responses. We all depend on our amygdalas, but if we're controlled by them, we're apt to be their marionettes, jumping when they say jump, fearing whenever they perceive a threat. (Indeed, you can see how the amygdale can be manipulated during any political campaign.) Animalistic impulses to anger, desire, fear – this is what the amygdale produces. How does meditation affect the amygdala? Davidson found that after two weeks of training in loving kindness practice, there was less activity in the amygdale when subjects were shown distressing images.41 In other words, they didn't react as strongly. Meanwhile, other parts of the brain moderate the impulses of the amygdala are strengthened by meditation, including the medial prefrontal cortex, adjacent precuneus, and other areas necessary for self-regulation. For example, the prefrontal cortex is associated with body regulation, communication, emotional balance, response flexibility, empathy, insight, self-knowing awareness, and fear modulation—the last of which it accomplishes by releasing an inhibitory neurotransmitter (GABA) that actually counters the impulses of the amygdala.41 In a study of MBSR practitioners, left side prefrontal cortex activation tripled after four months of practice.42

In other words, activity in the reactive mind—the impulsive, want-it-don't-want-it, have-sex-with-it-or-kill-it parts of the brain- decreases with meditation, while activity in the reflective, regulatory, mind increases. (By way of comparison, it's generally understood that when limbic activity in the amygdala and hippocampus dominates prefrontal activity; the result is a psychopathology.) Anecdotally, this model does seem to correlate with the experiences many meditators, including this one, have had. A stimulus is present that normally causes aversion: a difficult family member, a perceived threat. Yet rather than immediately react, meditators sometimes report a "spaciousness" around the negative stimulus. I want to lash out, but ok I don't have to. It seems to me that the physical processes these neuroscientists are describing do correlate to the mental-experiential processes I experience. There's no way to know, as yet, exactly what physical processes accompany or cause these mental events, and certainly no way to know that through introspection. But “feeling fear but not acting on it" is a physical, chemical process, even if it is experienced subjectively as purely mental in nature. As Freud is reported to have said, "all our provisional ideas in psychology will presumably someday be based on organic substructure.”43
Why does all this matter? First, as Richie (as everyone calls Professor Davidson) said to me,
The neuroscientific work provides a foundation that has enabled the incorporation of these practices in a wider swath of our culture. I see the work as creating openings in certain segments of healthcare and education that might not otherwise have been as receptive, by providing mechanisms, in modern scientific language, through which these dharma practices may actually be producing various effects. I think this has been extraordinarily helpful in these domains.
The science legitimizes the expansion of the dharma. It supports an overall view of the dharma not as religion, not as spirituality, but as a technology for upgrading the mind to be more resilient - "brainhacking,” if you like. Appearances notwithstanding, it is helpful to regard the zendo more like a gym than like a church or a synagogue. In addition to its efficacy in talking about the dharma with others, I have found this outlook to be profoundly liberating, and will discuss it in more detail in just a moment.
Now, as with all such findings, there remains a significant gap between the scientific data—couched, as it usually is, in cautious terms—and its inevitable oversimplifications. Davidson again:
There's a lot we don't know. People often think that we know that meditation has certain kinds of health impacts, but I think we know preciously little about that, and even less about how it may have those impacts. We know very little about the most effective ways of teaching these practices in a secular way... . We know almost nothing about what the optimal dosage, if you will, might be, and how that may vary across different kinds of individuals . . . we know a lot less in those domains than we think we know.
Even within the bounds of contemplative neuroscience, several methodological challenges remain: finding adequate control and comparison groups (there aren’t so many people with 10,000 hours of meditation experience out there – my own number is around 3,000.


Citations
1. See Richard Davidson, The Emotional Life of Your Brain (New York: Hudson Street Press, 2012), 183-97, describing the (very) rough early days of the field.
2. Black, "Hot Topics," 1-2; Tang, "Advances in Meditation Research."
3. Some of the recent studies include Judson Brewer et al., "Meditation Experience Is Associated with Differences in Default Mode Network Activity and Connectivity," Proceedings of the National Academy of Arts and Sciences 108, no. 50 (2011); Willoughby Britton et al., "Mindfulness Training Improves Polysomnographic and Subjective Sleep Profiles In Antidepressant Medication Users with Sleep Complaints," Psychotherapy and Psychosomatics 81, no 5. (2012); B. Rael Cahn and John Polich, "Meditation States and Traits: EEG, ERP, and Neuroimaging Studies," Psychological Bulletin 132, no. 2, (2006); A. Chiesa, A. Serretti, Jakobsen A.C., "Mindfulness: Top-down or Bottom-up Emotion Regulation Strategy? Clinical Psychology Review 33 no. 1 (2013); Veronique Taylor, et al. “Impact of Meditation Training on the Default Mode Network During a restful state,” Social Cognitive and Effective Neuroscience 8 No 1 (2013); Britta K Holzel, Et al, “How Does Mindfulness Meditation Work? Proposing Mechanisms of Action from a Conceptual and Neural Perspective” Perspectives on Psychological Science 6, no. 6 (2011); Zoran Josipovic et al., "lnfluence of Meditation on Anti-correlated Networks in the Brain,” Frontiers of Human Neuroscience 5, no. 183 (2011); Joseph Loizzo et al., "The Effect of a Contemplative Self-healing Program on Quality of Life in Women with Breast and Gynecological Cancers,” Alternative Therapies 16, no. 3 (2010); Eileen Luders, "Enhanced Brain Connectivity in Long-term Practitioners,” Neurolmage 57, Issue 4 (2011); Andrew B. Newberg et al., "Meditation Effects on Cognitive Function and Cerebral Flow in Subjects with Memory Loss: A Preliminary Study," Journal of Alzheimer’s Disease 20, no. 2 (2010); Aleeze Sattar Moss et al., "Effects of an Eight-Week Meditation Program 011 Mood and Anxiety in Patients with Memory Loss,” Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine 18, no. 1 (2012); Fox K.C.R. Zakarauskas P. Dixon M. L. Ellamil, M., Thompson E., and Christoff, K. (2012), "Meditation Experience Predicts Introspective Accuracy," PLoS ONE, 7(9), e45370.
4. See Boyce, Mindfulness Revolution, xiv.
5. Jon Kabat-Zinn, L. Lipworth, R. Burney, and W. Sehers, 'Four-year Follow-up of a Meditation-based Program for the Self-regulation of Chronic Pain; Treatment, Outcomes, and Compliance," The Clinical Journal of Pain, 3 no. 1(1987).
6. See Susan L. Smalley and Diana Winston, Fully Present, 105; Siegel, "Proven Benefits," in Boyce, Mindfulness Revolution, 138; Richard J. Davidson, The Emotional Life of Your Brain (New York: Hudson Street Press, 2012), 204.
7. Smalley and Winston, Fully Present, 108; Jeffrey M. Schwartz and Sharon Begley, The Mind and the Brain (New York: Regan Books, 2002), 249-50.
8. See Mark Wheeler, "Meditation Reduces Loneliness” UCLA Newsroom (website), August 14, 2012, http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portaI/ucla/meditation-reduces-loneliness-237463.aspx.
9. Siegel, "Proven Benefits' 138; Jon Kabat-Zinn, "Indra's Net at Work: The Mainstreaming of Dharma Practice in Society” in Watson, Batchelor, and Claxton eds., Psychology of Awakening, 225-49, 241-44.
10. Richard J. Davidson "Alterations in Brain and Immune Function Produced by Mindfulness Meditation," Psychosomatic Medicine, Vol. 65 No. 4 (2003).
11. Lawrence Peltz, "Mindfulness and Addiction Recovery' in Boyce, Mindfulness Revolution, 159-165.
12. Smalley and Winston, Fully Present, 219.
13. Davidson, Emotional Life, 201
14. Ibid.
15. Smaley and Winston, Fully Present, 155.
16. Ibid
17.Ibid
18. Andrew Newberg, "Meditation and Neurodegenerative Disease" (lecture, Advances in Meditation Research Conference, New York, January 17, 2013). Remarkably, Newberg's study showed changes in brain function after only eight weeks of practice.
19. Tim Gard, "Meditation Effects on Protecting against Age-related Deficits in Cognition and Associated Neuroimaging Measures" (lecture, Advances in Meditation Research Conference, New York, January 17, 2013). Lifestyle factors such as cognitive training, exercise, social engagement, and diet can also modify the rate of decline. Brenda L. Plassman et al., "Systematic Review: Factors Associated With Risk for and Possible Prevention of Cognitive Decline in Later Life," Annals of Internal Medicine 153, no. 3 (2010).
20. Yi-Yuan Tang, et al. "Central and Autonomic Nervous System Interaction Is Altered by Short-Term Meditation," PNAS, Vol. 106 No. 22 (2009).
21. R. A. Baer, et al, "Using Self- Report Assessment Methods to Explore Facets of Mindfulness." (2006) Assessment 13 (1), 27-45. See Siegel, Mindful Brain, 91-95.
22. See Jeff Warren, The Head Trip (New York: Random House, 2007), 300.
23. Norman Doidge, The Brain That Changes Itself (New York: Penguin, 2007).
24. Doidge, Brain That Changes, 109-12. Plasticity also accounts for how brains can become addicted. See www.beinghuman.org/article/interview-eric -nestler-dark-side-brain-plasticity.
25. Doidge, Brain That Changes, 114.
26. See Doidge, Brain That Changes, 113-14.
27. Rael Cahn, "Cultivation of Awareness: Neural Correlates to the Enhanced Clarity and Decreased Automated Reactivity During Vipassana Meditation" (lecture, Advances in Meditation Research Conference, New York, January 17, 2013).
28. Davidson, Emotional Life, 213-14.
29. Davidson, Emotional Life.
30. Davidson, Emotional Life, 208-09.
31. Smalley and Winston, Fully Present, 157.
32. Siegel, Mindful Brain, 111-114, citing Cahn and Polich, "Meditation States and Traits'
33. Davidson, Emotional Life, 216, citing Davidson (2007). Interestingly, the most experienced meditators showed less activity, suggesting the concentration practice was easier for them.
34. Eileen Luders, "Exploring Age-related Brain Degeneration in Long-Term Meditation Practitioners" (lecture, Advances in Meditation Research Conference, New York, January 17, 2013).
35. Eileen Luders et al., "Enhanced Brain Connectivity in Long-term Practitioners” Neurolmage Vol. 57, Issue 4 (2011). The subjects of Luders's used a variety of different practices, primarily Samatha, Vipassana, and zen, and had an average of twenty-three years of meditation experience.
36. Sara Lazar, et al, "Meditation Experience Is Associated with Increased Cortical Thickness' Neuroreport Vol. 16, No. 17 (2005).
37. Giussepe Pagnoni and Milios Cekic, "Age Effects on Gray Matter Volume and Attentional Performance in Zen Meditation' Neurobiology of Aging Vol. 28, Issue 10 (2007).
38. Davidson, Emotional Life, 184.
39. Ryan, Mindful Nation, 75-77.
40. Davidson, Emotional Life, at 222, citing Davidson 2007.
41. See Siegel, Mindful Brain, 337-362.
42. Davidson, Emotional Life, 204.
43. Quoted in Terence Gaussen, "The Development of Personhood and the Brain" in Watson, Batchelor, and Claxton, eds., Psychology of Awakening, 123-34.
44. On the methodological challenges, see Yi-Yuan Tang, Mary K. Rothbart, and Michael I. Posner, "Neural Correlates of Establishing, Maintaining, and Switching Brainstates," Trends in Cognitive Sciences 16, no. 6 (2012), On the limitations of small-scale research studies in general, see John P.A Ioannidis, "Why Most Published Research Findings are False," PLoS Med 2 no. 8 (August 2005): e124. On the limitations of self-reporting, Baer, et al "Using Self-Report Assessment Methods;" Willoughby Britton, "Mindful Binge Drinking and Blobology” Buddhist Geeks, www.buddhistgeeks .com/2012/1 1/video-mindful-binge-drinking-and-blobology/.
45. See Britton, "Mindful Binge Drinking and Blobology"
46. See David R. Vago and David Silversweig, "Self-awareness, Self-regulation and Self-transcendence (S-ART): A Framework for Understanding the Neurobiological Mechanisms of Mindfulness" Frontiers of Human Neuroscience, Vol. 6 No. 296 (2012).
47. Alissa Quart, "Neuroscience Under Attack' New York Times, Nov 23, 2012. www.nytimes.com/2012/11/25/opinion/sunday/neuroscience -under-attack.html. But see Gaussen, "Development," in Watson, 8 and Claxton, Psychology of Awakening, 124-25, noting that material-neurological and psychological accounts describe different levels of phenomena, and one need not reduce to the other.
48. Bernard Faure, "A Gray Matter: Another Look at Buddhism and Neuroscience” Tricycle, Winter 2012, 73. Unfortunately, Fauer himself overgeneralizes as well, describing mindfulness as "usually regarded as a rudimentary practice,” for example. This may be true of Vajrayana practitioners, but the Buddha described it as “the direct path to realization” – hardly rudimentary. Faure also alleges that the neuroscientific studies are in the service of a dark, pharmaceutical conspiracy. Since I am sure Faure knows as many of the researchers personally as I do, I am not sure how he can possibly make that charge. The ones I have met are sincerely motivated by curiosity and an optimism that the dharma can reduce suffering. If they wanted to make money from drug companies, they could have sold out long ago. Unfortunately, must of Faure’s article is a rant by an Orthodox Buddhist and Buddhist scholar who is unhappy that dharma has evolved beyond its traditional containers and contexts.


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I wasted 5 minutes of my life translating that for what seems to be a promo for a book.

The only thing "Evolving Dharma" gave me was a rather large, how did they put it "brainhacking” with an axe to my brain.

I guess I should be kind and say the meaning and relevance was lost in translation.

Perhaps say it in your own words TT ... oh yeah I remember the problem ... perhaps I will just leave your posts alone in future and save us both some "brainhacking".

Last edited by Orac; 01/09/14 05:04 AM.

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ABOUT THE EGO AND HOLISTIC HEALTH

Check out: http://www.bu.edu/sth/
On a scholarship, I did a 2 year Program there, in 1954 & 1955. In 1954, the famous Rev. Martin Luther King was then just one of the 500 theology students, newly graduated as a minister. That was when I went in to do some post graduate studies. He was born, Jan.1s/29, almost exactly one year before I was--Jan. 14, 1930.

My Theme was:THE HISTORY OF IDEAS. For other info check out: http://www.lindsayking.ca

I now feel that my post graduate studies at Boston University got me started on the path of thinking, holistically, about health matters, and unitheistically, about beliefs that matter.
=============================

BTW, It was at BU that I became very curious about the value of hypnotism, which, to get away from the myths, peoples fears of mind control and the stage-like hocus pocus, I now call pneumatherapy.

For your information, I have found that
ALL HYPNOSIS IS SELF-HYPNOSIS


Some people are such good self-hypnotic subjects types that they can go into trance, even without being aware that they are doing so. And we need to be beware, it is a power that can be used for good, or ill.

In 1964, I discovered that my daughter, Catherine King (then just over 7 years old (now 57)--check her out on Face Book--had this ability as a young child.

For several reasons, she developed a life-threatening lung disease--and developed pneumonia five times that winter.

When she became deadly ill, with the approval of our family doctor and the ones at the hospital, I used pneumatherapy on her. To the amazement of all involved, within days she recovered. Went back to school, ever accelerated a grade, and was never bed-ridden again. The story, which I wrote, was published, by a reputable anthologist interested in such stories.

Good subjects are quite capable of doing self-hypnosis--even by accident--and convincing themselves that they are anyone they want and choose to be.

On more than one occasion, I--and I am a well-trained hypnotherapist--have help victims help themselves and thus get themselves out of the unhealthy state into which they had put themselves. This is such a simple process that it can be even be done over the phone, which I have often.

Virtually all victims of any kind of obsessive compulsive neurosis and addiction, can help themselves undo the process. As a volunteer with a prominent addiction centre in Toronto, I have helped hundreds of such victims do so. Because I was allowed to work with large groups.


G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org
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Thank you for your answer and story Rev K although I have some reservations about anyone with a sick child not seeking medical advice however so I am a little bit (sorry struggling for a word here .. not sure) worried???? concerned???? about such actions.

I think I understand the context of your message so I guess I would ask do you know if anyone has ever tried hypnosis on multiple personality disorder patients?


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Originally Posted By: Orac
perhaps I will just leave your posts alone in future and save us both some "brainhacking".
It would be less of a strain for you to not challenge the boundaries of the intellectual box (ego). wink


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Originally Posted By: Orac
Thank you for your answer and story Rev K although I have some reservations about anyone with a sick child not seeking medical advice however so I am a little bit (sorry struggling for a word here .. not sure) worried???? concerned???? about such actions.
Orac,
Quote:
not seeking medical advice
Are you BLIND? I thought you could read English!

Are you saying that I did not seek medical advice?Where did I say: I did NOT seek medical advice? Before I say more, I need your reply, OK!


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Sorry I had to get someone to translate it for me

I am told it is quite standard but the word approval doesn't work for me it translates funny .. if I replace it with the word consent it works for me

=> with the approval of our family doctor and the ones at the hospital,

It is one of those weird translation words your daughter in law is Persian ask her to translate that sentence.

Approval is something Allah or God gives or the very least a form of authority. The other use for me is a form or application. The use of the word "ones" was strange contextually for me as well. I am sure your daughter in law will get something close to what I got from that.

Google translate did a better job of the sentence and actually makes the substitution for me ..

Sigh >>> sorry tried posting the arabic translation but it wont appear correctly.

However if you cut and paste your sentence into google translate and send it back again you will see what it does


Your sentence comes back as

Originally Posted By: google translate

When infected with the deadly disease, with the consent of our family doctor and those in the hospital, I use pneumatherapy on her. To the surprise of all concerned, in a matter of days she recovered. I went back to school, ever-grade acceleration, bed and did not suffer again. The story that I wrote, and published, before anthologist reputable interested in such stories.


See how it substituted the word approval for consent, and "ones" to those which then makes perfect sense to me.

Approval is one of those horrible words ... Rigid is another that causes problems for me.

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Originally Posted By: Orac
Sorry I had to get someone to translate it for me

I am told it is quite standard but the word approval doesn't work for me it translates funny .. if I replace it with the word consent it works for me ...

... Approval is one of those horrible words ... Rigid is another that causes problems for me.
Orac, thanks for taking all that trouble. Joke-kingly--that is, with a smile and even with a good laugh I say, your response has my sincere approval!
==============
(I assume you know that BTW is an acronym and a short way of saying,'by the way')

So, BTW, this dialogue you and I are now having shows two things:

1. The value of using the dialogue method--that is, using questions and comments, preferably short ones--back and forth until there is real communication and understanding.

2. It is a win/win game, not a zero-sum (I-win,you-lose) game--the kind that too many politicians love to use. Real statesmen and women prefer the dialogue method.

PROFILES HELP
This is why I like to know at least a few things about people-- www.wondercafe.ca does this well--who write in social media like SAGG.

======
Orac, with your "approval" smile and/or consent, may I give you a few more details of my use of pneumatherapy--the kind of hypnotherapy used by the world famous Dr. Milton Erickson? I used his gentle method numerous times, and not just on my daughter.


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Funny enough I was reading about it because I had never heard of it. It wasn't making much sense so please do explain away.

Originally Posted By: Rev K
Orac, with your "approval" smile and/or consent, may I give you a few more details of my use of pneumatherapy


Careful I will have to answer Wallah I am not an authority smile

I am not sure if that poor joke will be understood by you (Wallah meaning)

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THE STORY OF HOW, WITH HELP, CATHERINE TURNED ON
THE FULL POWER OF HER BRAIN AND HER IMMUNE SYSTEM, THAT HELPS US HEAL OURSELVES



=====================================================

The following first-person story entitled: The Endless Power of the Human Spirit, is on the record in the anthology: EXTRAORDINARY EXPERIENCES—Personal accounts of the para-normal in Canada, by John R. Colombo, a skeptic and agnostic.


Colombo is no one's fool. I met with him on more than one occasion, including participating with him on media panels. This anthology, which is a gold mine of well-researched stories was brought together by this well-known anthologist (See also Colombo's Quotations) in 1989. The facts in the story were examined by many people, including the religion editor of the Toronto Star.

In the winter of 1963-1964 my eight-year-old daughter, Catherine (Born April 1, 1956) —ailing since she was two and a half—was seriously ill with her fifth bout of pneumonia that winter. Doctors at Children's Hospital, Toronto, told our doctor and my wife and I: "Catherine's lung problem is extremely serious. One more bout of pneumonia could kill her. Her lungs are extremely scarred. What she needs is new set of lungs." And since this was in the day before lung trans plantation, all that was recommended was more of the same.


ENTER PNEUMATHERAPY

The basic story in the anthology is about my interest in the relation between religion, faith, science and healing since my student days. Early on, I was influenced by the writings of religious psychologists such as Dr. William Parker and Elaine St. John (Prayer Can Change Your Life) and The Rev. and doctor of psychology, Leslie D. Weatherhead (Psychology, Religion and Healing). Still good reads.


In my thirties, with the help of, Allen Spraggett, then religion editor of the Toronto Star, I met the following great thinkers who were then on the cutting edge of research in science, faith and religion. They spoke at my churches. I followed their work, closely:


1. I met the researcher in matters having to do with religion and science, The Rev. Dr. Frankiln Loehr and invited him to my church and my home. I heard, first hand, from him how his experiments were conducted with close attention to details and the keeping of careful statistics.


2. I also met and studied with the Rev. Harold Crump, who visited and lectured in Toronto more than once, over the years. He was in his 80's, when I met him, and still dynamically alive and well.


Crump, a methodist minister, was actually trained as an electronics engineer. He had worked with the brilliant Charles P. Setinmetz--the wizzard of General Electric.

http://chem.ch.huji.ac.il/~eugeniik/history/steinmetz.html

Crump taught a spiritual/science philosophy which is still being taught. He was whiz at hypnosis. The program he taught is called Concept Therapy. I have much of the concept therapy literature.

http://www.concept-therapy.org/


WHAT I LEARNED FROM FATHER JOE HELPED SAVE MY DAUGHTER'S LIFE

Then I met the one who, specifically, helped me help my daughter, Catherine, recover from a potentially fatal disease. Now in the hereafter, Father Joe was an American Episcopalian canon and a priest, Father Joe Wittkofski, Charleroi, Pa., who had been drummed out of the Roman Catholic faith, by a narrow-minded bishop of his, because of his "weird" ideas. He became a priest in the Protestant Episcopal Church of the USA--an open-minded religion, not unlike the UCC, in many respects.


From him I took several private studies. Later, with a group of twenty students, I arranged to have him come and give a week-long—over thirty hours—seminar Following the seminar, he went back to his own church in Charleroi, Pa.


Before he left, I told him of my daughter's problem. His words to me, as he left for his home, were: "You now know how to use hypnotherapy within the context of spiritual, or faith healing. You can help your daughter, better that I can. Go to work. Because of the dumb law you have here in Ontario against non-medical therapists using hypnosis, it would be wise for you to speak to your family doctor. I would like to see you and your group get the law reformed."


With this knowledge, I approached our family doctor. I told him about Father Joe's work, what I had learned from him, and I loaned him a copy of the book by Father Joe: THE PASTORAL USE OF HYPNOTIC TECHNIQUE. I also told him that he was now back in Pa., but was willing to keep in touch, by phone.


Our doctor admitted to me that he was not skilled in hypnosis. But was I ever happy when he told me: "I have no objection to your following Canon Wittkofski's suggestion. Give hypnosis a try. I will be interested in what results you get.”


Then he added, "Anything you can do to help your daughter's immune system to kick in is okay with me. In the light of Children's Hospital prognosis, we have nothing to lose. The law, as I understand it, is toothless. I think it was brought into being for the convenience of a certain few with a vested interest in keeping control. I will not report you, and I will monitor your daughters condition as needed."


[BTW, years later, a group of us lobbied the provincial department of health. The law was reformed. Hypnosis is no longer considered just a medical procedure. Thank G~O~D!]


Encouraged by this and the desperate condition of Catherine, I went ahead. The details of what I said are in the anthology.


I used what now I call pneumatherapy—the spiritual application of hypnotic technique—hypnosis without the hype and hocus pocus. It is similar to what is now called neuro linguistic programming.

3. One of the early developers of NLP was the father of North American hypnosis, psychiatrist Dr. Milton Erickson. In my opinion, Dr. Erickson was a pneumatherapist.


4. Father and Canon Joseph Wittkofski, who was also trained in biology, taught me that hypnotic suggestion can influence the will and the imagination of individuals. This guides the mind and the body to awaken the extremely valuable auto-immune system.


A FULL RECOVERY TOOK PLACE

To the amazement of all involved, overnight, Catherine, began to recover from a disease that had been poised to kill her. The doctor was as good as his word. He kept a close watch on and monitored her condition. Within a very short time, Catherine was well enough to go back to school. She was never bed-ridden again. She is now 57.


BTW, sometime later (in the early 1970's), it was discovered that the full-spectrum anti-biotic, prescribed by her doctors to fight Catherine's pneumonias, was quietly removed from general usage.

It was discovered that it had a very negative effect on kidney functions and the immune systems of all patients.
Interesting.

Think of how many lives were saved by the use of PNEUMATHERAPY!

========================================
There is a SEQUEL




­


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I think the key thing here Rev K is you had monitoring in place, what worries me with many version of faith healing is they often don't or won't accept the monitoring in place because they view it as not having faith.

It reminds me of the joke which has a more serious context to this discussion.

There is a seaman who has such faith in his god one day he decides to show just how much faith he has in his god. He sets off in his boat with no food or water and sets a coarse directly out to open sea.

Sometime out a sea the coastguard patrol comes across the seaman quite some distance out to sea. They ask if he needs assistance and he says no I am perfectly fine and my god will save me. As they have no legal reason to intervene they leave him to sail on.

Sometime later and a lot further out at sea an oil rig crew transfer chopper sees the seaman and hovers down to check that he is okay. He replies he is perfectly fine and his god will save him and just go away, again with no right to intervene they leave.

Finally far far out at sea and a few days without food and water the seaman and his boat is surrounded by whales which start to nudge and push his boat in a definite direction. He yells and slaps at the whales forcing them to leave him and his boat alone.

The seaman dies and when he comes in front of god he protest god I believed in you that you would save me but you failed me.

GOD looked at the seaman and said firmly I sent you a coast guard, a chopper and a pack of whales to save you what more did you expect me to do?


The point is blind faith is very dangerous because you are not GOD smile

So I have no problem with faith healing so long as what is happening is monitored like it would be done in a normal medical situation. How would one know that GOD had not trained a doctor with the exact knowledge to save a patient anyhow just like the seaman joke smile

Last edited by Orac; 01/12/14 09:50 AM.

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Originally Posted By: Orac
I think the key thing here Rev K is you had monitoring in place...
YES! of course. You add,
Quote:
What worries me with many versions of faith healing is they often don't, or won't, accept the monitoring in place because they view it as not having faith.
Me? I like to say: A BLIND, IGNORANCE-BASED FAITH?--IT IS A WASTE OF TIME. About your joke
Originally Posted By: Orac
It reminds me of the joke which has a more serious context to this discussion...
ORAC, years ago, I used another version of this joke when I preached sermons on FAITH with 20/29 VISION. I made it clear to my listeners: BELIEVE ONLY WHAT MAKES SENSE, WHAT IS RATIONAL AND WHAT WORKS, ESPECIALLY FOR YOU. You say,
Quote:
The point is, blind faith is very, dangerous because you are not GOD smile
MY OPINION?: God, G0D, GOD, god, gods--are loaded words--loaded with all kinds of conditional meanings which we give to them. And they can be useful as long as we accept this to be so and explain how we use them.[/b]

And I will add: It is my opinion, that there are a lot of god-like people out there, people who use their willpower in a godly way--and the more there are, the better we all are and so is the world in which we all live.

There is no god, singular or plural--ones living in a dimensional world like we all do, as a thing or a person.Thank you for saying,
Quote:
So I have no problem with faith healing so long as what is happening is monitored like it would be done in a normal medical situation.


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The BIG question: IS THERE A GOD? Check the answers in the latest edition of:

http://www.ucobserver.org/opinion/2014/01/big_question/

The UNITED CHURCH OBSERVER is the prize-winning monthly mag of the United Church of Canada--the church with only three commandments:
1. Keep the Golden Rule
2. keep the Golden Rule and
3. Do the best you can with the other seven. cool
=======================
There is one other: As long as you bring a buck or two, or more--NOW AND THEN: Atheists/Agnostics! WELCOME! laugh

JOKE TIME: When Toronto--near which, I live (Markham (Thornhill)Ontario, Canada--was hit by a BIG winter ice-storm, just before X-mas, neighbours asked me to "Do something religious, REV!"

So I did, I took up an offering! laugh BTW, I always laugh at my own jokes--like as did the comedian RED SKELTON, eh!

BTW, the weather turned mild, not long after I did my magic. HOW ABOUT THAT, EH? --as we say in C uh! N uh! D uh!, eh!




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Orac, I just read an excellent piece of writing by a writer to forum of the United Church OBSERVER. Many thanks were given. I added mine:

REV BS--real initials, BTW--I, too, thank you for your excellent piece of writing. Would it too brazen of me to suggest:

You could have been more in tune with what you wrote if you had titled your article, as do I:

OPEN LETTER TO GOD

Dear God, are YOU, or are YOU NOT, a real person with a human-like image like us?

If the answer is YES! Can you imagine what this could mean for YOU, and your son's church?

YOUR REGULAR COLUMN IN THE UNITED CHURCH OBSERVER--announcing your will for the day. With the help of www.WonderCafe.ca it could be headline news in every paper and magazines ALL OVER THE GLOBE. WOW!

Just think, no more need to have to waste time reading the daily HOROSCOPE; nor the need for billions of us, especially our clergy, to keep on begging you--over and over again for so many special favours: O God, make all the bad people good, and all the good people nice. No more war! Think of the saving of lives and expenses!

BTW, God, I hope you have a sense of humour! smile


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Originally Posted By: Revlgking
I made it clear to my listeners: BELIEVE ONLY WHAT MAKES SENSE, WHAT IS RATIONAL AND WHAT WORKS, ESPECIALLY FOR YOU.


I think that is why I have very few problems with your religion and your views because it does seem to be sensible, sane and rational.

TT would go on about how you insist this or that but for me personally the things you are insistent on are the domain of religion and so I have no issue. TT's issues are because he believes in a different set of religious criteria and so he is always going to clash with you over religion.

You still haven't answered my question as to whether you think it's possible to hypnotically treat someone with multiple personality disorder and resolve them back to one personality?


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Originally Posted By: Revlgking
No more war!


That would be nice and different for the world.

Originally Posted By: Revlgking
BTW, God, I hope you have a sense of humour! smile


I am hoping that myself smile


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Originally Posted By: Orac


TT would go on about how you insist this or that

I would never.. shocked
Originally Posted By: Orac
but for me personally the things you are insistent on are the domain of religion and so I have no issue.

Religion is simply belief. They (beliefs) emerge, they change, and they fall away.
Originally Posted By: Orac
TT's issues
UH.. My issues are your issues. You made them up, not me. When you get to understand the English language without having to run it through a translator, come talk to me about what you think you hear/read and know.
Originally Posted By: Orac
are because he believes in a different set of religious criteria and so he is always going to clash with you over religion.

I don't clash with religion, I simply see it for what it is. A belief, followed by a lack of credibility in the experience of it's point of reference as a rule. People like yourself, clash with me and what I have to say about them and their religion. C'est la vie


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Originally Posted By: Orac
... TT's issues are because he believes in a different set of religious criteria and so he is always going to clash with you over religion.
Orac, almost all your posts to threads started by me have interesting content, encourage having a dialogue(conversation), are a pleasure to get and to read, thanks. ABOUT: Those from posters who are dogmatic, do not have helpful content and from posters about whom I know zero?

Here is how I read such posts: I scan them briefly. If I do not find anything that grabs my attention, I move on, quickly, to interesting things.

You mention:
Quote:
You still haven't answered my question as to whether you think it's possible to hypnotically treat someone with multiple personality disorder and resolve them back to one personality?
Briefly, tell me what you know about the story of, or history of hypnosis. Have you read anything about the writings and story of the psychiatrist Dr. Milton Erickson. Do a google-search and check his name in WIKIPEDIA.

BTW, are you familiar with the term 'ego state'?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ego-state_therapy



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Originally Posted By: Tutor Turtle

I don't clash with religion, I simply see it for what it is. A belief, followed by a lack of credibility in the experience of it's point of reference as a rule. People like yourself, clash with me and what I have to say about them and their religion. C'est la vie


I don't clash with you I just see through your vacuous contrarian behaviour which I suspect has something to do with your childhood as that is the most common cause.

Lets face it the only explanatory comment on anything here you have made was to push sale of a book on "Dharma" the rest is just contrarian replies, look at your last responses just in last post

TT=> I would never ... shocked <Analysis> even you realize as true but still must take a counter stance but you do at least joking do it

TT=>Religion is simply belief ... <Analysis>statement of the bleeding obvious
TT=>They (beliefs) emerge, they change, and they fall away ... <Analysis> Most of the major religions (Christians, Islam, Buhdda, Hindu) have not changed much at all if any on the core stuff in written and recorded history. So this is just a contrarian statement with no evidence which is actually a lie.

TT=>UH.. My issues are your issues. You made them up, not me ... <Analysis> Statement of the bleeding obvious YES I IDENTIFIED THE ISSUES but just stating I don't have any issues is what children do. You revert to the behaviour because it gives you a contrarian stance.

TT=>I don't clash with religion ... <Analysis> Lie simple contrarian stance
TT=>I simply see it for what it is. A belief followed by a lack of credibility in the experience of it's point of reference as a rule. ... <Analysis> Justification of lie is plain stupidity because any situation with a GOD puts a human mortal with lack of credibility BY DEFINITION they aren't god.

TT=>People like yourself, clash with me and what I have to say about them and their religion .. <Analysis> Lie I don't clash with you over anything to do with religion I clash because as per my analysis above everything you say is a contrarian behaviour or a lie to support a contrarian stance.


The above analysis is why I clash with you TT nothing to do with religion. Feel free to disagree with my analysis of your statements but at least you should have a firm understanding of my position on you, I can not and do not speak for how others see you.

However I do find it amusing to ponder if your egocentric views are caused from your contrarian personality, or your personality is an extension of your beliefs smile

Last edited by Orac; 01/14/14 01:06 AM.

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Originally Posted By: Revlgking
Briefly, tell me what you know about the story of, or history of hypnosis.


Very little Rev K only what you see in movies and on TV certainly not done any reading on it.


Originally Posted By: Revlgking

BTW, are you familiar with the term 'ego state'?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ego-state_therapy


I will get back to this in a second I want to discuss ego itself for a minute.


Having come from a communist background where ego was actively discouraged and only conformist behaviour was encouraged I find Western and especially Western psychology views on ego at odds with my view. In some way I see ego-mania diagnosis in many things which are simple behaviour issues gone mad.

This goes back to that original issue of diagnosis of multiple personality order problem because from my vantage point much of Western psychology diagnosis revolving around ego is the same a diagnosis based on the personal bias of Western psychology.

This is the problem I find with disciplines which do not have objective scientific backgrounds.

So I am very skeptical when people start throwing ego around as an excuse or explaination because to me that is a very Western diagnosis and I refer back to how that condition would be diagnosed in a non western country.

I should say there are interesting parallels in homosexuality. Many in the west can not understand Russia's bill banning gay "propaganda" and condemn it but it comes down to the same problem. Many in the old guard in Russia see homosexuality rates increasing and see it as a western disease that is bought about by propaganda and that historically they didn't have these numbers. For me the problem here is the same as the ego issue we have no real data, the gay number may have always been there at exactly the same rate just pushed underground. It is for me an interesting window on the problem of induced personal bias and how that may translate into perception. Myself, I have no real personal view on homosexuality mainly because I worry that my view would be biased and I like my life to be logical as you probably would guess smile

Last edited by Orac; 01/14/14 12:45 AM.

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Originally Posted By: Revlgking
Orac, almost all your posts to threads started by me encourage having a dialogue(conversation) ABOUT: .. posters who are dogmatic, do not have helpful content and from posters about whom I know zero?
This would be gossip.. frown.. but then its easy to turn gossip towards self measure, comparison and the topic of ones self.
How pleasantly ironic.. not only is the rev. the initiator of the topic but also the example for the topic itself. wink



Originally Posted By: Orac


I don't clash with you I just see through your vacuous contrarian behaviour which I suspect has something to do with your childhood as that is the most common cause.


You clash with my behavior as you see and understand it.


Originally Posted By: Orac

Lets face it the only explanatory comment on anything here you have made was to push sale of a book on "Dharma"

Uh, NO. You complained you couldn't get thru translating what I wrote, so I don't think your lack of comprehension or admitting you didn't get thru what I wrote supports your observation. You like making things up to get a rise out of those you don't want to get along with.
Probably a childhood thing, since that is where that kind of thing begins. whistle


Originally Posted By: Orac
even you realize as true but still must take a counter stance but you do at least joking do it.
Hard to take serious something that doesn't have any truth behind it (even tho you claim it has truth), or someone who simply isn't interested.


Originally Posted By: Orac
Most of the major religions (Christians, Islam, Buhdda, Hindu) have not changed much at all if any on the core stuff in written and recorded history. So this is just a contrarian statement with no evidence which is actually a lie.

The evidence is in the way religionists interpret dogma. Churches are born and dissolve with changing interpretations of the written word.



Originally Posted By: Orac
Statement of the bleeding obvious YES I IDENTIFIED THE ISSUES but just stating I don't have any issues is what children do. You revert to the behaviour because it gives you a contrarian stance.

No I take the stand that your problems (as identified) are not something I decide to place upon myself, regardless of your god like authority to testify in behalf of the issues you wish to identify with.



Originally Posted By: Orac
Lie simple contrarian stance.
No fact. Religion does not cause me to lose sleep nor to feel stress. It has it's place just like coloring books in preschool.



Originally Posted By: Orac
Justification of lie is plain stupidity because any situation with a GOD puts a human mortal with lack of credibility BY DEFINITION they aren't god.

You have defined God? sick Ooh.. please elaborate! smile



Originally Posted By: Orac
Lie I don't clash with you over anything to do with religion I clash because as per my analysis above everything you say is a contrarian behaviour or a lie to support a contrarian stance.

You just supported my statement that you clash with me because of what I say about you and religion. For whatever reason you want to give for clashing with me, it supports my statement and isn't a lie..



Originally Posted By: Orac

The above analysis is why I clash with you TT nothing to do with religion. Feel free to disagree with my analysis of your statements but at least you should have a firm understanding of my position on you, I can not and do not speak for how others see you.

Wasn't addressing you as any other. What you confuse yourself with in this conversation is that you contradict yourself and accuse me of what you display as an attitude towards those you have no control over and those you have issues with.



Originally Posted By: Orac

However I do find it amusing to ponder if your egocentric views are caused from your contrarian personality, or your personality is an extension of your beliefs smile

Guess without really getting to know me or having mastered the English language, as well as not taking the time to translate the conversations, nothing you have decided is a sure thing. Perhaps you should take a more scientific approach and summon a peer review? cool




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If you only knew how much I enjoyed that ... Sorry TT you aren't special I really understand you and that really gets under your skin doesn't it smile

Human nature is so predictable at times, Rev K would have responded in a much different way but I am pretty sure I can predict it as well.

There is probably one small thing to correct

TT => You have defined God? sick Ooh.. please elaborate! smile

No actually I defined what isn't god, perhaps the sentence didn't translate correct. This follows back to the joke above with Rev K with humans assuming they know the will of god. So the meaning of the sentence was supposed to be humans will always lack understanding and credibility of God because they aren't a god. I am sorry if it did not translate that way.

Last edited by Orac; 01/14/14 05:44 AM.

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Originally Posted By: Orac
I am sorry if it did not translate that way.
No need to apologize.. I've recognized the discrepancies in your lack of comprehension in the English language and the passive aggressive attempts to compensate for the handicap..
As you say, "Human Nature is so predictable"
It's all good.

By the way... The idea that one can define what is not God (limiting God), would have to be supported by the idea of what God is (proof). cool


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Woot ... passive aggressive ... wait up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive-aggressive_behavior

Nah stuff that with you I am aggressive aggressive because I don't respect you enough to bother with the passive bit. I think you need to realize I only tone it down because Rev K will frown badly and chastise the blunt Orac and I respect him smile

I predict I am going to get a lecture from Rev K on tolerance any second now.

Last edited by Orac; 01/15/14 10:30 AM.

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I would agree that you enter your conversations with a personal vigor, and that you try to filter your responses within the boundaries of democratic definition, regardless of whether your opinion is democratic or peer oriented. (not very scientific... after having repeatedly defended the parameters of opinion and definition as being subject to scientific validation)

In other words you define your principals within the box of scientific rule, but allow your emotional opinion to rule the conflagration of Ad-hominems you use to arrange the box outside of a democratic bid.

Happy (personal) Jihad wink

Love this topic by the way.. It's a self demonstrating topic! grin

Oh, and I doubt the rev would scold you..He's been your number one cheer leader when it comes to addressing my posts.
(Would love to see him in the outfit and with pom poms)

You seem only to be absent of a cheer leader while flaming Paul... So sad. frown


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Yep you have been measured and boxed smile

Don't say I am not an equal opportunity flamer, I will flame dropkicks of any persuasion .. I would hate to be discriminatory.

Somehow I really can't see Rev K being okay with my behaviour but on the plus side I do have something to repent, oh wait not sure if they repent in Rev K's religion smile

In my defense I don't consider internet trolls/drop-kicks human I place then as a separate classification just above bacteria on the life hierarchy tree.

Last edited by Orac; 01/15/14 04:43 PM.

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Originally Posted By: Orac

In my defense I don't consider internet trolls/drop-kicks human I place then as a separate classification just above bacteria on the life hierarchy tree.

obviously in a different category than flamers and jihadists.. grin

And yes the boxing thing was a given.. The predictability factor don'tcha know.


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Originally Posted By: Tutor Turtle

obviously in a different category than flamers and jihadists.. grin


Clearly because they are doing something active about an argument not trying to bore everyone to death. The jihadists I deduct tree levels because they resorted to physical violence.


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Originally Posted By: Orac
Originally Posted By: Tutor Turtle

obviously in a different category than flamers and jihadists.. grin


Clearly because they are doing something active about an argument not trying to bore everyone to death. The jihadists I deduct tree levels because they resorted to physical violence.


Flaming is a form of verbal abuse (violence). A Jihadist would often present a verbal segue as the necessary step toward the act of physical violence (also seen as morally righteous). Often the verbal reaction and subsequent physical abuse is a sign that psychologically one is unable to meet the world with the intellect but instead meets it with the emotions and fear. What one might call a discussion another might call an argument. What one might call dialogue, another might call a discussion inclusive of personal opinion, points of disagreement and the debate of principal, value and point of reference.

When a fanatic takes a position to strip another of their right to free speech and to condemn or demoralize them because of a personal belief, it is often to make a statement towards the benefit of others, and yet they are often blind to any other perspective.

Perhaps you would like to save the world from those you make it your personal responsibility to attack, but maybe you also go unrewarded for your efforts when those you seek to protect have no investment in that which you invest yourself. whistle

I find it odd that you speak to being a practitioner of democratic process in the order of things and as authority, and yet act on your own accord and without peer review and approval to decide what is best for others.

The reverend likes to place first judgment on credentials. He assumes little value in a person who doesn't present credentials that speak to the worth of a man. I think that is an interesting trait of the ego and even more interesting that a man who claims the title of reverend would take such a position, to value or devalue a man according to the clothes he wears and the title he carries to validate himself.
He likes to put himself at a top level in and amongst those with title and history. (like the pharisees who challenged Jesus the son of a carpenter)

Just out of curiosity.. and since you like to create these levels of worth when it comes to putting things in category and box..

Where do you put yourself?


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ROFL nice try TT smile

Perhaps start a thread on the garbage and we can discuss it but I am not going to derail Rev's thread to have a dropkick contrarian argument with you.

Last edited by Orac; 01/16/14 01:26 AM.

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Originally Posted By: Orac
ROFL nice try TT smile

Perhaps start a thread on the garbage and we can discuss it but I am not going to derail Rev's thread to have a dropkick contrarian argument with you.


Don't have to start anything..
This is ongoing, and definitely "ON TOPIC" cool

I know you are busy, flaming.. running back and forth between subjects and doing the righteous thing for the benefit of others. Paul seems to be your main concern and I probably fall somewhere at sublevel..

So perhaps you could answer my question.

What level do you put yourself at when measuring the worth of mankind? How does science judge a man other than to present the inclinations of personal opinion and democratic rule?

What else is ego?


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Sorry you will have to do it with yourself then, I don't do social science dribble arguments, they won't let me experiment and cut peoples brains out to see what they really think and how personal perception really works.

I was sort of at that point with DID with Rev K anyhow, so unless someone has something interesting to say I will leave you all to it.


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Originally Posted By: Orac
Sorry.. ..they won't let me experiment and cut peoples brains out to see what they really think and how personal perception really works.
I was sort of at that point with Rev K anyhow, so unless someone has something interesting to say I will leave you all to it.


Fascinating! The Reverend measures the book by its cover. You rip the pages out.

This is the ego on religion and science. blush

Guess no one reads anymore... wink


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Originally Posted By: Tutor Turtle

What level do you put yourself at when measuring the worth of mankind?


As it's semi intelligent I will answer that one.

I don't put myself anywhere, I actually put everyone on the same level as I do animals.

I don't care if people have my point of view or perception, on this forum Bill S, Bill, Rede, PMB, Rev K would all have radically different views on most things to myself but I interact fine with them.

So what changes with my interaction with Paul, Newton and yourself, why do I interact so differently, well it's the stupidity factor ... I don't do stupid well.

Newton is just certifiable, Paul has his little GOD vs Science war going on and then we have you.

Clearly you have some intelligence because of the way you argue but the problem is when you look at your responses they are usually vacuous or simple contradictions. You will no doubt argue that smile

However at the end of the day I have made it quite clear I find your line of responses vacuous, inciting and quite stupid and annoying. Fine that is just my personal view it may not be scientifically justifiable. Rev K has also made it blatantly clear he dislikes conversations with you, I haven't asked but I suspect for the same reason ... so lets just blunt it down we find you piss us off for whatever reason, maybe we have issues.

So we have now made it quite clear to you that we do not enjoy conversations with you and really would prefer you don't converse with us.

However that is not good enough for you, you have a right to keep replying and trying to interact with us and make responses more and more annoying so that we have to react, it's usually called the forum pest. In the real world we would have the option of moving to exclude the pest but we don't on a public forum, free speech and all that.

So now we have the Mexican standoff we have made it clear we find you a pest but you want to exercise your freedom of speech right to annoy the crap out of everyone. I have no issue with that but I also have the same freedom of speech right.

So it's nothing deep and meaningful and worth getting into the psycho babel about, you piss me off and I would prefer not to talk to you but for some reason you feel compelled to be present in the conversation because it has the word EGO in the title. I can't stop you getting involved but I don't have to be civil either as the only two people involved in the conversation currently view you as nothing more than a serial pest.

Last edited by Orac; 01/16/14 03:36 AM.

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ORAC, I will just quote you the famous words of one of the plays of Shakespeare:

http://www.enotes.com/shakespeare-quotes/thine-own-self-true



Polonius:
This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.
Farewell, my blessing season this in thee!

Laertes:
Most humbly do I take my leave, my lord.

Hamlet Act 1, scene 3, 78–82


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Originally Posted By: Orac


I don't care if people have my point of view or perception, on this forum..So what changes with my interaction with Paul, Newton and yourself, why do I interact so differently, well it's the stupidity factor ... I don't do stupid well.

The above is a contradiction. Or in your words contrary or contrarian. You do care.. or stupid wouldn't be the excuse to delude yourself of caring what something looks like.
Besides.. in your previous posts all your testimonies are to the point of caring about what you engage in.
Originally Posted By: Orac

.. and then we have you.
Different than all others and the animals. Equality does not present itself in your judgments as the action of choice, and the emotional investment. As you said previously, you have me categorized and boxed.
Originally Posted By: Orac
the problem is when you look at your responses they are usually vacuous or simple contradictions. You will no doubt argue that smile

Well I won't argue the idea that you do not want to see things the way I will. Your way, is by choice.

I challenge the single perception of thought, or the assumptions that are made in what I have said.
Often, people who don't comprehend reality outside of the box of measure get frustrated when something doesn't fit in the standard system of measure. You are all about standards, as is the reverend. He likes to precede his words with title, pomp, and circumstance.
Problem is.. stupid people by the reverends and your definition falls into the category of non-compliance with self prescribed standards. (at least in the examples given in the complaints)
Originally Posted By: Orac

However at the end of the day I have made it quite clear I find your line of responses vacuous, inciting and quite stupid and annoying. Fine that is just my personal view it may not be scientifically justifiable.

Which is contrary to what you stand for as the authoritative point of any value system. This would be the point of our conversations. You condemn religion and these conversations regarding self empowerment because they are built on the irrationality of individual perceptions.

The rev just put his plug in for "to thine own self be true" yet in these arguments you make toward rationality of the individual sense of perception you would argue that if they (insert opinion or subject) do not follow the authoritative guidelines stamped with the approval of said authority they are false truths. You use this approach with all those you come into conflict with.

The reverend would appeal to science to back his sense of values up, and to achieve a degree of reverence for his effort. He basically seeks to grease his way thru the sphinctered orifice of authoritative and totalitarian personal review.


Originally Posted By: Orac
Rev K has also made it blatantly clear he dislikes conversations with you, I haven't asked but I suspect for the same reason ...

He might agree with you, but he does have his own reasons. Even you have come to loggerheads with the rev.


Originally Posted By: Orac
so lets just blunt it down we find you piss us off for whatever reason, maybe we have issues.

That would be closer to the truth.
However, your science and the rev's preaching has made reference to the facts that support the idea that we as individuals are making our own choices, and the power of the mind is not driven by what is outside of us, but rather within our own internal programs.
The rev's testimony to hypnosis is the supportive idea when he suggests that an individuals mind can accept whatever it wants to see as reality. It's not so much the ideas that someone else wants to present as reality that decides for us what is real, but whether we accept its validity.


Originally Posted By: Orac

So we have now made it quite clear to you that we do not enjoy conversations with you and really would prefer you don't converse with us. In the real world we would have the option of moving to exclude the pest but we don't on a public forum, free speech and all that.
But you do have the right and the will to ignore what is in front of you, and even more to the point, you have the will to overcome the psychological attachments to those things you accept as having power over sensibility and choice. What you call pest another may call god.
Obviously its not me since I don't inflict such suffering on others any more than it is the object in the room that controls a persons feelings or thoughts.

What is it that draws you toward the conflicting thought?

You have the ability to comprehend yourself. Yet in your previous post, the scientific way and the method of choice to understand what drives you to do what you do as the self prescribed method, would be to take your brain out of your head and cut it up.
For all the assumptions you make about psychological conditioning, that is your truth in understanding and the pathway to knowledge and wisdom..., the deconstruction of any known thing.
At least that is what you present as an argument.
Originally Posted By: Orac

..you.. interact with us and make responses more and more annoying so that we have to react..

Do you listen to yourself?
Really?
I have that much power over you and your choices? You and the reverend?
He (the rev) goes on and on about how he has me on ignore in personal preferences, yet his actions show that his preference is to respond to my posts.
He uses that childish kind of approach that kids often use when they say to each other "I'm not listening to you" But responds to everything I write, even if it is indirectly. Maybe he's just out of control like yourself and victim to circumstance.

Originally Posted By: Orac
In the real world we would have the option of moving to exclude the pest but we don't on a public forum, free speech and all that.
again this is the real world and you have free will to understand and choose to accept or reject. Any attachments that would reveal as personal stresses would be psychological. Science might subscribe to the idea that you are predisposed genetically to react, but I won't agree that the world or what's in it, has control over you. Science contradicts itself when it says genetically we are predisposed, and then when it's convenient, such as when it comes to medicine and healing, that we have an influence on whether we are healthy or sick.

Originally Posted By: Orac

So now we have the Mexican standoff we have made it clear we find you a pest but you want to exercise your freedom of speech right to annoy the crap out of everyone. I have no issue with that but I also have the same freedom of speech right.
And freedom of will to make choices.
Challenges in life often inspire intelligent people to rise above a situation. Less intelligent people clash with a challenge and try to remove it, because the challenge is seen as nothing more than an annoyance.


Originally Posted By: Orac

So it's nothing deep and meaningful and worth getting into the psycho babel about,
that's babble

Originally Posted By: Orac
you piss me off
An affliction of supreme proportions...

Originally Posted By: Orac
and I would prefer not to talk to you
Then don't. If that is your preference why would you compromise?

Originally Posted By: Orac
but for some reason you feel compelled to be present in the conversation because it has the word EGO in the title.
Well, all the conflict within your sense of reason and the idea of being such a victim is all about the ego.


Originally Posted By: Orac
I can't stop you getting involved but I don't have to be civil either

You don't have to be anything. You choose to be what you want. Nothing makes you do this, it is all in your choices to see the world as you see it.

You choose to be other than civil, because you believe something or someone has power over you, and causes you to be the way you are. This is ego.


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See your basic behaviour in the post you know you piss us off we find you a pain in the arse and we have told you that or are you to thick and stupid to register that. Why you piss us off isn't important maybe it's our problem maybe it's yours who gives a [censored], only in your feeble dropkick mind is that even important.

You are aware of that yet you feel you must comment back to us because you are a piece of trolling bacteria just like I labelled you.

That is basically all your bullshit posts are about the same old bullshit to troll a response.

TROLLING TROLLING TROLLING

Last edited by Orac; 01/17/14 01:23 AM.

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Rev K just ignore the troll because he will no doubt continue his anti-social trolling and I will refrain from flaming him back out of respect for you smile

However his behaviour got me thinking why when there is no authority does behaviour break down in your view and has this always been the case thru history.

As you know I come from a very regulated upbringing and country so I find the sort of anti-social behaviour and trolling very foreign to me, they would have been put against the wall and shot so to speak.

So it leads to the question .....

I wonder if as we make the individual more self sufficient and independent they feel they don't need others and so you see a rise in anti-social behaviour or do you think it was always there just suppressed by authority and as we give more individual freedom it surfaces?

Last edited by Orac; 01/17/14 01:52 AM.

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Originally Posted By: Orac
I come from a very regulated upbringing and country so I find the sort of anti-social behaviour and trolling very foreign to me, they would have been put against the wall and shot so to speak.

So it leads to the question .....

I wonder if as we make the individual more self sufficient and independent they feel they don't need others and so you see a rise in anti-social behaviour or do you think it was always there just suppressed by authority and as we give more individual freedom it surfaces?

As long as you're not putting them against the wall and shooting them, you are possibly allowing them to feel they can express themselves outside of the demands that previously denied them the right to think for themselves or express themselves.

You seem to think that others need to be told what to do as a basic need in social behavior, and the need for those others is to be regulated, censored and programmed...?? frown

In the U.S.A. such an idea of freedom of expression or the debate of an issue, is not seen as antisocial. It might be seen as outside of socialistic dictates of suppressed behavior. So maybe the definition of social behavior as it applies to socialism doesn't fit in the west.

The need to have everyone think and act in accord with your wishes, or you and another, is a bit on the extreme side of normal social behavior as it is known where I come from.

I know you just hate it when I address your posts, but then, if you want certain rights and freedoms, yer gonna have to allow others to share them unless you want to start your own country and own the rights of your subjects and the subject of belief of those subjects. wink

Oh and by the way, I don't think the reverend minds you flaming me. He's made a habit out of throwing his own flaming remarks in the ad-hominems he used in referring to my participation in the subjects he frequents. He's even tried to appeal to the moderators to have me banned from the forum.

But like the rev says.. to thine own self be true.. or maybe he meant that for everyone but me? blush


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ORAC, AND TO ALL WHO CHOOSE TO BE WHO YOU ARE

To the many close and distant friends that I have on FaceBook, who wished me well on my 84th birthday, January 14, I recently wrote a THANKS-FILLED response similar to the following:

My goal in life is to wear out as graciously as possible while being as useful as possible, in as many helpful ways as possible, to global earth, and to as many people--friend or foe--as possible. In other words, in this process I choose and WILL: to wear out, not just to rust out! THREE things come to mind:

1. Science assures us that, somatically speaking, nature recycles all things--including our bodies (somas) and the like. However, we also have brain-based minds, souls. What of them?

2. As a child, because of traumatic deaths in the family, I became a self-aware EGO, with a psyche or mind of my own, by the time I was not quite three.

Modern science now speaks of the brain as if it has a mind of its own. A recent book bears the title, "The BRAIN that changes ITSELF--Stories of Personal Triumph from the Frontiers of BRAIN SCIENCE" by Dr. Norman Doidge, MD. (A native of Toronto) For details, just simply do a Google-search. My grand daughter--a graduate in psychology--gave it to me, for Xmas.

In summary, the book is about us as PSYCHOSOMATIC BEINGS.

3. But, IMO, we are PNEUMA-PSYCHOSOMATIC...that is, spiritual beings, who happen to have a mind and a body--a psyche and a soma, which are evolving into being integrated.

Understanding INTEGRAL THEORY, based on the work of Ken Wilber, is crucial here. Again I suggest you do a google search on the work of Ken Wilber.

Wilber's work is focused on the belief that we are spiritual beings in the process of evolving, somatically, psychologically and pneumatologically--that is, physically, mentally and spiritually.

We have many things in common with our our animal friends and relatives, but there are differences. Animals--even if they have to die, or eat each other, in the process--have no choice. Nature drives them, at all costs, to obey their instinctual drives to survive and pass on the species.

We human beings however, have the option of harnessing and using our willpower to do that which is good. Once this choice is made, will takes over and conscience comes to the fore. This moves us to stop seeking revenge and remains victims of negative emotions.

Thus we are empowered, as needed, to change directions, modify and even over-ride dangerous instincts and destructive habits. How? By harnessing the team of good will and a sensitive, and guilt-free conscience. Both will then work to empower us to be in control of how we live our lives and prepare us to die--that is, transcend the limitations of life--peacefully, without regrets, in harmony with what is and in tune with self.




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ORAC, COUNT THIS AS AN EXPERIMENT IN COMMUNICATION

in my last post, the last but one paragraph goes like this. Please ignore it. The look at revised version of what I should have said:
Quote:
We human beings however, have the option of harnessing and using our willpower to do that which is good. Once this choice is made, will takes over and conscience comes to the fore. This moves us to stop seeking revenge and remain victims of negative emotions.
Now, guided by my suggestion and you having the WILL (agreed?) to accept my suggestion, you can, mentally and actually, get rid of it and place it with this revised version:

As an evolutionist, I agree that, before story telling and history were invented, we happened to be animal-like beings who later evolved to be more human-like than animal-like.

Science tells us that it all came to pass that, because we happened to have larger brains, that is, larger relative to the size of our bodies, we soon became more rational than the animals who--subject to the law of natural selection--had no choice but to remain trapped by their instincts.

Gifted with this BIGGER brain, we evolved the ability to dominate, outwit--without feelings like guilt, shame and the like --to domesticate, kill and eat other animals, including much larger animals.

At this point, maybe there were spoken words, but none of our ancestors had evolved enough to invent writing and keep a record what was happening. The great invention of story telling and history came later.

THE FIRST SCIENTIST. See Genesis 3: 6 cool

The next giant step was, I suspect, taken by ... Dare I say it? THE FIRST SCIENTIST was our first mother, who was amazed and awe struck at the miracle of giving birth to male and female offspring.

xxxxxxxMORE WORK TO DO ON THIS, LATER...my boss and motherly wife wants my attention, OK! laugh

ABOUT The evolution of self-awareness, of conscience. This evolved into the greater awareness and knowledge of good and evil within what we call history--happenings, involving people moving within space and time.and then a social conscience--an AWARENESS of powers, real or imagined, beyond the physical ones. Thus entered the gods and what we now call religion and so on .....


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THE FIRST SCIENTIST--OUR FIRST MOTHER

Genesis 3:6

Good News Translation (GNT)

6 The woman saw how beautiful the tree (of knowledge of good and evil) was and how good its fruit would be to eat, and she thought how wonderful it would be to become wise (she was curious). So she took some of the fruit and ate it.

Then she gave some to her husband, and he also ate it.


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Originally Posted By: Revlgking
THE FIRST SCIENTIST--OUR FIRST MOTHER

Genesis 3:6

Good News Translation (GNT)

6 The woman saw how beautiful the tree (of knowledge of good and evil) was and how good its fruit would be to eat, and she thought how wonderful it would be to become wise (she was curious). So she took some of the fruit and ate it.

Then she gave some to her husband, and he also ate it.


The symbolism above refers to the ego and its emergence as the senses were turned outward. (Religion then condemns women for causing the downfall of man.)
The feminine represents the outward senses and the masculine the absolute. The cross is another symbol of the masculine and the feminine. The vertical staff represents the absolute or the father (masculine God in stillness and silence) or the infinite potential. The horizontal staff represents the outward movement (Feminine God in action) or potential reflected as the manifest universe.

Religion tries to make the bible literal when a lot of its meanings are symbolic.


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ORAC, I quote a recent comment made by TT to you,
Quote:
Oh and by the way, I don't think the reverend minds you flaming me. He's made a habit out of throwing his own flaming remarks in the ad-hominems he used in referring to my participation in the subjects he frequents. He's even tried to appeal to the moderators to have me banned from the forum.
Orac, I know you are aware that I do not enjoy FLAMING anyone, personally. However, I do understand your feelings of frustration with the exceptionally bad SYNTAX--arrangement of words to form sentences, clauses, or phrases; sentence structure--in the posts by TT to you and others (Remember? We lost Ellis because of her frustration with meaningless posts.)--the kind to which you refer.

NB: About the words through which I put a strike-through. Generally speaking, the syntax of this sentence is OK. But it is filled with totally false statements.

What I asked the moderators to do was to apply the rules set up by them, for the enjoyment of all: Send posts that are long and filled with awful and meaningless SYNTAX to that far-away galaxy they mention in the rules.

BTW, I just checked the PRIVATE MESSAGES I wrote way back to moderators and others, including TT and Orac. I said ZERO about banning posters.

Last edited by Revlgking; 01/18/14 08:06 PM. Reason: Always helpful

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Quote:
Religion tries to make the bible literal when a lot of its meanings are symbolic.


On the subject of translation; many years ago, when writing something in Latin, I tried to distinguish between "I am" and "it is I". The best I could come up with was "Ego sum" for both.

Any linguist with any thoughts?


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Quote:
Religion tries to make the bible literal when a lot of its meanings are symbolic.


Where is Paul to address this heresy laugh

I never forget the reaction from him when I made the suggestion because I thought everyone took it as symbolic, I had never met a fundamentalist. Funny enough since being in the States now I have met quite a few smile


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Originally Posted By: Orac
ROFL nice try TT smile

Perhaps (I will) start a thread on the garbage and we can discuss it, but I am not going to derail Rev's thread to have a dropkick contrarian argument with you.
Good move, Orac! About your comment earlier in which you wondered about my religion and what it teaches about repentance.

The United Church of Canada? It is denomination of religion that is very open to all individuals with sincerely held beliefs, including atheism, as long as all teachings and practices are within the laws of the land.

Sorry cannibals, no human sacrifices or cannibalism, as being part of any religion, or belief system allowed, eh!--no matter how sincere you cannibals are smile

Me? Keep in mind that I am a panentheist. I believe that what science calls measurable reality is the field of science.

PANENTHEISM & UNITHEISM are similar

As a unitheist, I accept the role of all the sciences in understanding the laws of nature and the function of the material, imminent and measurable cosmos/universe within the space/time continuum.

However, I hold that it IS possible that this cosmos/universe, physical in form exists within that which is infinite, eternal and transcendent Being--S.P.I.R.I.T.U.A.L Being or G.O.D--in which things can come and go mysteriously, in which we live, move and have our physical being, for now.

BTW, there is an open group for unitheists, on faceBook, to which I belong. Feel free to take a look. https://www.facebook.com/groups/unitheism/ and/or
http://www.unitheist.org/

Untheists, or panentheists simply believe in doing that which is god-like--as good as possible--to the echos and our fellow human beings, no matter who they are.

If we make mistakes and, for whatever reason, do harm we are simply expected to apologize for it and then move on with the resolve to do better from then on. We do not need to grovel and repent before some imaginary god up there, or create one in in our mind. That, IMO, is useless and a waste of time.

Remind me, Orac: How were you raised? Did you tell me you were raised in a place where there was no religion, in Russia? What about now, in the USA? Are you now an atheist, or a what? Do you do your best to be a god-like, honest and friendly person?

ROFL? Orac, may I ask: What, BTW, does this acronym mean?





Last edited by Revlgking; 02/02/14 12:44 AM. Reason: Always helpful

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Orac, I just found what ROFL means: It means, Rolling On the Floor, Laughing laugh I found it in, Wiktionary. Here is is:

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ROFL laugh


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