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"in space no one can hear you scream" Have you overlooked the possibility that the early Universe may have been sufficiently dense for sound waves to propagate? Mark Whittle says: “The Universe began not with a bang but with a low moan, building into a roar that gave way to a deafening hiss.” Whittle, it seems, has reconstructed the pattern of the sound waves that would have accompanied the birth of the Universe. He has done this by studying the high resolution mapping of the CMBR, translating the observed frequency spectrum directly to sound which yields tones far too low for ears to hear – some 50 octaves below middle A – but transpose the score up all those octaves and you can listen to it. The intensity of the variations corresponds to about 110 decibels. Whittle has also used "the best available cosmological models" to map the way the vibrations evolved over time, showing how the chords of the big bang changed over the Universe’s first million years or so.
There never was nothing.
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Nothingness is a ridiculous concept how does one contain nothingness and what are it's boundaries? If "nothing" is infinite, it cannot be contained, it has no boundaries. Actually, I agree that "Nothingness is a ridiculous concept". I don't believe there has ever been nothing, and I think that the claim that the Universe came from nothing is misleading because it requires nothing to be redefined as something.
Last edited by Bill S.; 08/28/13 04:08 PM.
There never was nothing.
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[quote] ... I think that the claim that the Universe came from nothing is misleading because it requires nothing to be redefined as something. It is like the old child-like question: Who made God? A god that can be made--physically, or mentally--is an idol, a thing. This is why I feel that the god hypothesis of which I write--GÕD who Generates, Organizes & Delivers that which is Good, Opportune & Desirable--cannot be encapsulated in any word, even if it be a proper noun.
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org
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I think that the claim the god hypothesis of which I write--GÕD who Generates, Organizes & Delivers that which is Good, Opportune & Desirable--cannot be encapsulated in any word, even if it be a proper noun. The who, as you state it to be, insinuates a personality or quality of character. You substantiate the quality with subjective descriptions of values, that relate to a division of opposites. This renders the universe as you see it into opposites like light and dark. Good and bad, opportune and inopportune, desireable and undesirable. These definitions by their very nature encapsulate the separation of qualities that are subjective and personally derived. This is not infinite quality, but rather finite revelations that make god a creation of human imagination. The very definition of religion, is historically linked to this waking state fabrication of god.
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!
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Mark Whittle says: “The Universe began not with a bang but with a low moan, building into a roar that gave way to a deafening hiss.”
<snip>
The intensity of the variations corresponds to about 110 decibels. Whittle has also used "the best available cosmological models" to map the way the vibrations evolved over time, showing how the chords of the big bang changed over the Universe’s first million years or so.
You need to be careful with this sort of stuff Bill S. There is no one version agreed on as the "big bang" so Mark Whittle assumes a sort of composite version and then extracts it out thru various models. You have the cold big bang and sure you can have sound: http://phys.org/news/2013-08-ultracold-big-successfully-simulates-evolution.htmlThe hot big bang is a little more difficult: http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr162/lect/cosmology/hotbb.htmlNo agreed value but something like 300 000 - 700 000 years before you have atoms no sound until at least then. It's one of the interesting revelations of last few years if you incorporate QM into the start of the universe as we now must there are many possible versions of the big bang and the trick is to sort which is correct.
I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.
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If "nothing" is infinite, it cannot be contained, it has no boundaries.
Correct and thus to do this trick on a universe scale you only have a few viable options Hartle-Hawking State: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hartle%E2%80%93Hawking_state Good old multiverse: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MultiverseI will leave out the few from string theory since most of those are now on life support from the LHC. Actually, I agree that "Nothingness is a ridiculous concept". I don't believe there has ever been nothing, and I think that the claim that the Universe came from nothing is misleading because it requires nothing to be redefined as something.
This leaves open the problem of where did everything come from then Bill S ... are you going to invoke GOD? Me personally I am much more a zero man as Anthony Zee so eligantantly put it If the energy is "really there", then it should exert a gravitational force. In general relativity, mass and energy are equivalent; both produce a gravitational field.One obvious difficulty with this association is that the zero-point energy of the vacuum is absurdly large. Naively, it is infinite, because it includes the energy of waves with arbitrarily short wavelengths. But since only differences in energy are physically measurable, the infinity can be removed by renormalization. In all practical calculations, this is how the infinity is handled.
So no I don't think the universe is infinite in any sense.
Last edited by Orac; 08/30/13 12:53 AM.
I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.
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Thanks Orac, at last a scientific response that I can question. I have to admit that I can muster very little enthusiasm for any sound that may have been associated with the BB. Moving to your last post, I would like to test my understanding of the Hartle-Hawking State with a few questions. Planck epoch = 0 to 10^-43 s. This is a period of time; therefore time must have started at t=0. Therefore time exists during the Planck epoch. Do I have the right impression? They suggest that “….if we could travel backward in time toward the beginning of the universe, we would note that quite near what might have otherwise been the beginning, time gives way to space such that at first there is only space and no time.” Does this statement imply that we would see that the condition of “space and no time” exists after t=0, or that we would be able to see beyond the BB? “….that at first there is only space and no time”. Is this before or after the BB? If there was a "time" when there was space but no time, how could this condition change? Surely time is needed in order to allow change. If there were a condition in which there were space and no time, there would be only space now, unless some outside influence “created” time. They propose that “the universe is infinitely finite”! Wow! I’m told I am the one with odd ideas about infinity. Is this another term for unbounded, or is it just semantics?
There never was nothing.
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