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this is the part that lost me.

Quote:
Philosophy of Religions


Quote:
Philosophy is the study of general and fundamental problems, such as those connected with reality, existence, knowledge, values, reason, mind, and language


of

Quote:
Religion is an organized collection of beliefs, cultural systems, and world views that relate humanity to the supernatural, and to spirituality.


6,000,000 + views later.

the reality of spirituality !














3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.
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Originally Posted By: paul
this is the part that lost me.

Quote:
Philosophy of Religions


Quote:
Philosophy is the study of general and fundamental problems, such as those connected with reality, existence, knowledge, values, reason, mind, and language


of

Quote:
Religion is an organized collection of beliefs, cultural systems, and world views that relate humanity to the supernatural, and to spirituality.


6,000,000 + views later.

the reality of spirituality !


Holy Crap! Someone actually got close to getting it.

The philosophy of religion and it's emergence into humanity is in essence the thread even science follows to asking the question why are we here, or what and who are we?
Are we separate from the Universe or part of it? Did the Universe create man or did whatever created the universe create man as a necessary part the Universe?

Too bad it went into the direction of Who I am is what makes me, and the universe is according to the who I am kinda theme.

God being created in the image of man is what religion is all about, being it is a system of shifting beliefs as well as the separation of beliefs. Often the philosophers (self proclaimed at least) seem to want to sit inside their jar and imagine what's out side of it, based on the experience of the inside of the jar.

None of the great masters who came about, proclaiming their experience of reality said their beliefs or experiences were a religion. That notion was created by the followers who imagined what they heard, based on where they were at in their own minds. Which was standing outside of the others experience thinking about what they heard.

The Churches were created to gather those of like mind who aspired to find the peace and divinity of union with the creative principal in the all that is, inside of themselves, that was spoken of by the masters who had inspired them.
When it became a democratic process of imagined projections it turned itself away from the inner exploration described by the masters, who proclaimed the essence of reality was inside of each individual.. (I and my Father are ONE kinda thing.

With the authority stepping in to direct the masses toward their agenda in maintaining the standard of God on the outer level of experience and belief, all systems created were like the school systems of government control.

What man should know became a project of the authority, and what man is taught the property of those who who would claim to know what is best for man and man's purpose and function as a society.

Today, governments and cultures of difference help to exemplify the difference in opinion regarding what Man should have, desire and how we should be governed.

Even what a man is worth.
Thanks Reverend for making that example quite clear within your religious belief.

Sometimes you have to tear down one house to build another to make improvements in both function and lifestyle.

6 million is nothing compared to the Billions who came before this moment in time to bring us to this point of death and the birth of a new moment that will create a future that will be nothing like this time. That future will remember us and this time like most see the past today. One of archaic superstitions and simplistic ideas that were replaced by their present systems of measuring the nature of reality and humanity within it.


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Moderators, or anyone, who understands the meaning of the recent posts: Are they on TOPIC?

If anyone understands what they mean, please simplify, summarize, and enlighten us all, OK! smile


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Originally Posted By: Tutor Turtle
Originally Posted By: redewenur
The bulk of this thread has proven to be not even not-quite-science.
Really. shocked Not quite science has a definition and an authoritative foundation in reality that gauges where the boundaries of not quite science begins and ends?

I'd be interested in knowing where that is, so I could have a clear understanding of where such a system was derived and how it is measured.

Thanks for illustrating my point (as does Rev, in the previous post).


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Originally Posted By: Revlgking
Moderators, or anyone, understands the meaning of the recent posts--the ones by others, not me, please simplify, summarize, and enlighten us all. smile

If it's outside of your box, there won't be an explanation that will work for you. wink

Pretty much what Rediweener is intimating.



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BTW, MODERATORS! --ABOUT THE TITLE OF THIS HISTORIC THREAD:--I assume that, at this point, it is not possible for you to edit the title of this thread. Or could you? Needless to say--if the thread is to continue--I would like there to be a change something like as follows.

If you could, I would like the title to be something close to this:
Quote:
Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, religionists, secularists, skeptics and others ...
Be that as it may, I see that, this thread is still very much alive. And this is so despite the grunts of the trolls (the TTs)--that is, those who, at the expense of others, try to get attention even when they have little to add to the dialogue-- smile

I also see that this thread keeps attracting lurkers--bless their hearts. It seems that they are still tuning in, eh! Cool "cool" IMO!

Last edited by Revlgking; 08/03/13 10:07 PM. Reason: Always helpful

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Originally Posted By: Revlgking
I see that, this thread is still very much alive. And this is so despite the grunts of the trolls (the TTs)--that is, those who, at the expense of others, try to get attention even when they have little to add to the dialogue-- smile

Actually the moderator who threatened to close this thread took offense to the slander you're so keen to employ and yet distance yourself in perfect innocence. crazy
I think it went like this...
Originally Posted By: Mike Kremer
TO ALL READERS OF THIS SITE
PHILOSOPHY OF ALL RELIGIONS

DUE TO THE FACT THAT THERE HAS BEEN NO PROPER DISCUSSION OF RELIGION FOR SOME TIME.
THIS SITE HAS DEGENERATED INTO A SLANGING MATCH AND UNRELATED TO RELIGION AS SUCH.
ALSO A DEGREE OF ADVERTISING HAS CREPT IN...IN THE FORM OF
"WONDERCAFE" AS WELL AS AN OFF TOPIC DISCUSSION OF SUICIDE ETC

I THINK ITS BEST TO DELETE THIS PHILOSOPHY OF ALL RELIGIONS IN ITS ENTIRETY
Besides the slanging, there was the issue of you taking this thread off topic, as well as the narcissistic advertizing of your self, and wondercafe.
Originally Posted By: Revlgking

I also see that this thread keeps attracting lurkers--bless their hearts. It seems that they are still tuning in, eh! Cool "cool" IMO!
You mean turning away don't you? whistle


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Thank G~0~D & GD--are special acronyms--meaning from out of nothing to everything--which I now use to sum up and help make real the concept that a god-hypothesis is possible and is based on science-based knowledge.

Scientists, using hard research are now helping us discover, know and use the gift of willpower as a real and valuable gift. The more of it we give, the more we have. The theological term is Agape-Love. As John, in his letter in the Bible put it: "God is love..."

When we learn what it is and use it, we use the gift of the most coveted human virtue: self-control.

WILLPOWER-the greatest human strength

It is the title of a great book given to me by my family, for Christmas, 2011. I pick it up, study it and talk about it, to others, often.

It was with the help of John Tierney--Science writer of the NEW YORK TIMES--who was impressed with the thorough research of social psychologist, Roy F. Baumeister, Florida State University, that it came be published.

Thanks to this work, willpower is no longer a figment of the imagination, or just a form of wishful thinking--the kind of thing we used to outsource to theistic gods, or to the one "true" God--the one atheists say does not exist--up there and is addressed by millions of church goers numerous times a day as "Our Father who art in heaven ..."

=============
Here is the NY TIMES review, by Steven Pinker, of the book about WILLPOWER:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/04/books/...?pagewanted=all

Willpower is an immensely rewarding book, filled with ingenious research, wise advice and insightful reflections on the human condition. And now that Ive finished this review, I can turn my e-mail back on, spend no more than 30 minutes replying and go out to enjoy this late summer day.

Steven Pinker, Harvard College professor of psychology at Harvard University. His latest book, The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined, will be published soon.

Last edited by Revlgking; 08/08/13 05:03 AM. Reason: Always helpful

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Originally Posted By: Revlgking
G~0~D & GD--are special acronyms--

Why are they special?
Originally Posted By: Revlgking
G~0~D & GD:
meaning from out of nothing to everything--

Also meaning imagined? Is it even possible to get something... or everything from nothing? Wouldn't there be something prior to the emergence of everything? Scientifically, does it make sense to get something from nothing?

Then this everything (at least as it is perceived within the limits of Human perception) is G~0~D & GD...

Within the beliefs of most religions, God supersedes the manifestations of reality or the everything that is other than God. Being that God creates everything.
Your belief then, is in the specialness of the everything that comes about as a result of..... ?????? Willpower maybe?

What a person wills in creating their own special God makes it so?

A sort of Special and magical everything G~0~D & GD?
Originally Posted By: Revlgking
G~0~D & GD:
meaning from out of nothing to everything--
which I now use to sum up and help make real the concept that a god-hypothesis is possible and is based on science-based knowledge.

Obviously there are special ideas about science as well as God, in religion.

Last edited by Tutor Turtle; 08/08/13 02:47 PM. Reason: It was a special case

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TO ALL SAGOGO readers and writers: How many curious scientists, philosophers, clergy, educators, thinkers, and whoever among us have heard of the work of PATRICIA SMITH CUMBERLAND--born in British Columbia in 1943?
I first heard of her on our tax-supported CBC--commercial-free radio. Currently, she is professor emerita at the PHILOSOPHY DEPARTMENT, University of California, San Diago.

Today in the morning paper, THE NATIONAL POST, I was pleasantly surprised to see a summary, by her, of her latest book, Touching a Nerve. Here it is:
I have no soul (and Im okay with that)

BTW, so am I okay with that: IMO, I do not have a SOUL, MIND, SPIRIT (SMS); I AM A SMS; I happen to have a brain & body. But I could also say: I am a SELF.

Now about her life and work, check out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patricia_Churchland

http://philosophyfaculty.ucsd.edu/faculty/pschurchland/index_hires.html
=========================================
In summarizing her new book, Patricia Cumberland refers to herself as a 'neurophilosopher'--obviously demonstrating that new ideas require the invention of new words--and tells us that when she reflects on the matter,
Quote:
I realize that my memory is all about the neurons in my brain. Lately, in fact, I've come to think about my brain in more intimate terms--as me,
full stop.
If I get the time, perhaps I should write her and ask:

"Patricia, I am sure you must know...and do you? I will presume you do know that the ancient Egyptians--and many others after them--had the same feeling about the heart as you now have of the brain, OK?"
====================================

I would also ask Patricia:
Quote:
Have you heard of the work of the neurologist and reseacher, Shawn Mikula? I knew him when he was a student at John's Hopkins, Baltimore, MD. Since then, he has done research in the US and in Germany--

http://mpimf-heidelberg-mpg.academia.edu/ShawnMikula

Shawn and I shared the following idea: The brain is a component. The core part of it is in the skull. However, via the nervous system, it does extend to every cell in the soma. He published a lot of my stuff on his pages.

It is my personal belief and experience that wirelessly, like modern radios and phones, the brain does extend its "miracle-like" influence--for good, or evil-- beyond the confines of the soma.

I have my own evidence for this--I claim it saved my life, and the lives of others, more than once. I have also used it to help people pass on, peacefully.

Of course, I am open and willing to have a dialogue about this with anyone interested.

==========================
BTW. Jan 13, 2010--In response to a query I made Dr. Mikula said,
Quote:
Hey Lindsay, the brainmeta site started as mind-brain.com, which grew out of a simple personal homepage that i made in 2001. The forum began on Jan 23, 2003.
Yes, I was a student at hopkins at the time. i'm glad you remember.

Congrats on turning the big 8-0. Hope you celebrate in a fitting way. Btw, that's not so old... wait til you hit triple digits.

Shawn was born Feb. 28, 1976
http://www.facebook.com/wall.php?id=468284...ing?ref=profile

In http://brainmeta.com/index.php?p=mikula
In harmony with the topic of this long-running thread: 'Philosophy of Religion ...' thread, may I go back awhile and acknowledge the life and work of another acclaimed BC writer, ECKHART TOLLE, and writes about what makes us who we are. Here's some info about him:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eckhart_Tolle

As I see it, we are not just a jumble of separate parts--just so many bits and pieces. We are a complex combination of components--essential parts.

For example, the heart is a component; however an arm, or a leg is a part: Generally speaking, the Soma, Psyche and Pneuma (Greek for Body, Mind and Spirit) are components--we need all three, working in harmony, to be fully human. A three-legged stool needs all three pods. Two-legged stools have no real value.

AWARENESS AND TOTAL HEALTH
Now, with the help of the writings of Echart Tolle (2004), let us explore what he tells us about his journey to AWARENESS and peace of mind when he writes:
Quote:
"Until my thirtieth year, I lived in a state of almost continuous anxiety interspersed with periods of suicidal depression. It feels now as if I am talking about some past lifetime or somebody else's life..."
See his book, The Power of NOW, p.3.

This comment inspires me to ask soooooooo.... many questions; but, for now, I will limit the number to the following few:

1) Anxiety and depression. Who among us, at one time or another, has not felt very anxious and/or depressed?

2) Right now, is there any among us who lives in a state of being that is one of almost continuous anxiety; one of absolute dread, and is utterly devoid of meaning and peace of mind? Anyone?

3) Anyone who has been through the same kind of crisis as described by Tolle, below, and who now has some idea what it means to be conscious of the NOW? In addition, I ask:

3) Has anyone among us ever gone through the kind of mysterious and intense experience as that described by Echart (p.5): He writes
Quote:
I knew, of course, that something profoundly significant had happened to me, but I did not understand it at all...until several years later...the intense pressure of suffering ... What was left then was my true nature as the ever-present I am...consciousness in its pure state...Later I also learned to go into that timeless and deathless realm...states of indescribable bliss...a time came when I was left with nothing...no relationships, no job, no home, no socially defined identity.

I spent almost two years sitting on a park bench in a state of the most intense joy. But even the most beautiful experiences come and go...But the undercurrent of peace has never left me...Before I knew it, I had an external identity again. I had become a spiritual teacher...
More questions:
4) Is there anyone reading this above who relates to Tolle's story, and who has also become fully conscious of the NOW?

5) How can we become fully, and truly, conscious and spiritual beings--ones beyond being puppets manipulated by the mind (the psyche) and the body (the soma)--the source of our pain and suffering?

6) Over and over again, Tolle makes the point that, "We are not just minds and bodies..." What do you think he means by this? This following link will help you find answers:

http://www.eckharttolle.com/
and you can search at:
http://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/840..._attempted=true

by Revlgking (Tue Oct 16 2012 09:34 PM)


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THE ARTICLE--by Patricia Smith Churchland--IN THE NATIONAL POST

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2013...okay-with-that/


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Originally Posted By: Revlgking
TO ALL SAGOGO readers and writers: How many curious scientists, philosophers, clergy, educators, thinkers, and whoever among us have heard of the work of PATRICIA SMITH CUMBERLAND--born in British Columbia in 1943?
I first heard of her on our tax-supported CBC--commercial-free radio. Currently, she is professor emerita at the PHILOSOPHY DEPARTMENT, University of California, San Diago.

Today in the morning paper, THE NATIONAL POST, I was pleasantly surprised to see a summary, by her, of her latest book, Touching a Nerve. Here it is:
I have no soul (and Im okay with that)

BTW, so am I okay with that: IMO, I do not have a SOUL, MIND, SPIRIT (SMS); I AM A SMS; I happen to have a brain & body. But I could also say: I am a SELF.

Now about her life and work, check out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patricia_Churchland

http://philosophyfaculty.ucsd.edu/faculty/pschurchland/index_hires.html
=========================================
In summarizing her new book, Patricia Cumberland refers to herself as a 'neurophilosopher'--obviously demonstrating that new ideas require the invention of new words--and tells us that when she reflects on the matter,
Quote:
I realize that my memory is all about the neurons in my brain. Lately, in fact, I've come to think about my brain in more intimate terms--as me,
full stop.
If I get the time, perhaps I should write her and ask:

"Patricia, I am sure you must know...and do you? I will presume you do know that the ancient Egyptians--and many others after them--had the same feeling about the heart as you now have of the brain, OK?"
====================================

I would also ask Patricia:
Quote:
Have you heard of the work of the neurologist and reseacher, Shawn Mikula? I knew him when he was a student at John's Hopkins, Baltimore, MD. Since then, he has done research in the US and in Germany--

http://mpimf-heidelberg-mpg.academia.edu/ShawnMikula

Shawn and I shared the following idea: The brain is a component. The core part of it is in the skull. However, via the nervous system, it does extend to every cell in the soma. He published a lot of my stuff on his pages.

It is my personal belief and experience that wirelessly, like modern radios and phones, the brain does extend its "miracle-like" influence--for good, or evil-- beyond the confines of the soma.

I have my own evidence for this--I claim it saved my life, and the lives of others, more than once. I have also used it to help people pass on, peacefully.

Of course, I am open and willing to have a dialogue about this with anyone interested.

==========================
BTW. Jan 13, 2010--In response to a query I made Dr. Mikula said,
Quote:
Hey Lindsay, the brainmeta site started as mind-brain.com, which grew out of a simple personal homepage that i made in 2001. The forum began on Jan 23, 2003.
Yes, I was a student at hopkins at the time. i'm glad you remember.

Congrats on turning the big 8-0. Hope you celebrate in a fitting way. Btw, that's not so old... wait til you hit triple digits.

Shawn was born Feb. 28, 1976
http://www.facebook.com/wall.php?id=468284...ing?ref=profile

In http://brainmeta.com/index.php?p=mikula
In harmony with the topic of this long-running thread: 'Philosophy of Religion ...' thread, may I go back awhile and acknowledge the life and work of another acclaimed BC writer, ECKHART TOLLE, and writes about what makes us who we are. Here's some info about him:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eckhart_Tolle

As I see it, we are not just a jumble of separate parts--just so many bits and pieces. We are a complex combination of components--essential parts.

For example, the heart is a component; however an arm, or a leg is a part: Generally speaking, the Soma, Psyche and Pneuma (Greek for Body, Mind and Spirit) are components--we need all three, working in harmony, to be fully human. A three-legged stool needs all three pods. Two-legged stools have no real value.

AWARENESS AND TOTAL HEALTH
Now, with the help of the writings of Echart Tolle (2004), let us explore what he tells us about his journey to AWARENESS and peace of mind when he writes:
Quote:
"Until my thirtieth year, I lived in a state of almost continuous anxiety interspersed with periods of suicidal depression. It feels now as if I am talking about some past lifetime or somebody else's life..."
See his book, The Power of NOW, p.3.

This comment inspires me to ask soooooooo.... many questions; but, for now, I will limit the number to the following few:

1) Anxiety and depression. Who among us, at one time or another, has not felt very anxious and/or depressed?

2) Right now, is there any among us who lives in a state of being that is one of almost continuous anxiety; one of absolute dread, and is utterly devoid of meaning and peace of mind? Anyone?

3) Anyone who has been through the same kind of crisis as described by Tolle, below, and who now has some idea what it means to be conscious of the NOW? In addition, I ask:

3) Has anyone among us ever gone through the kind of mysterious and intense experience as that described by Echart (p.5): He writes
Quote:
I knew, of course, that something profoundly significant had happened to me, but I did not understand it at all...until several years later...the intense pressure of suffering ... What was left then was my true nature as the ever-present I am...consciousness in its pure state...Later I also learned to go into that timeless and deathless realm...states of indescribable bliss...a time came when I was left with nothing...no relationships, no job, no home, no socially defined identity.

I spent almost two years sitting on a park bench in a state of the most intense joy. But even the most beautiful experiences come and go...But the undercurrent of peace has never left me...Before I knew it, I had an external identity again. I had become a spiritual teacher...
More questions:
4) Is there anyone reading this above who relates to Tolle's story, and who has also become fully conscious of the NOW?

5) How can we become fully, and truly, conscious and spiritual beings--ones beyond being puppets manipulated by the mind (the psyche) and the body (the soma)--the source of our pain and suffering?

6) Over and over again, Tolle makes the point that, "We are not just minds and bodies..." What do you think he means by this? This following link will help you find answers:

http://www.eckharttolle.com/
and you can search at:
http://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/840..._attempted=true

by Revlgking (Tue Oct 16 2012 09:34 PM)

Sheesh. If I had written anything this long I would have been accused of being long winded and verbose..
Oh yeah... I was accused of being verbose for writing a long post like this.. wink


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Originally Posted By: Revlgking

4) Is there anyone reading this who has also become fully conscious of the NOW?

Yes.., but more importantly, if someone did, how would you validate their experience of the NOW?

How would you describe the now?

One who knows what the now is, is also cognizant of the fact that Tolle's story is not a standard or a blueprint to awakening, but rather an individual experience. The Jesus or Buddha story is nothing like Tolle's.
If you read the dialogues between Krishnamurti and others, you will find he has nothing to say about the now as being anything but normal, nor was any part of his life spent in a cosmic bliss-like experience described by Tolle where one has difficulty integrating ones self with reality. In fact if you discuss the state of Bliss with those that understand it, it goes beyond the senses as they project the glorified experience of the stupor he was in.

What he described as an awakening was contrast to his depression. What he speaks of now as the NOW, is basically his past experience to bring credibility to what his current experience is, which no one seems to have an interest in.

Tolle has become an idol for the depressed, and those who have fallen from their faith in religion.

Most people are like those that Jesus faced during his rise to public awareness. People look for a way out of their life because they don't understand that they made it what it is, and don't know how to unmake what they don't like. So the norm is to seek a way out, with some cosmic experience or somebody to save them from themselves.

So what happens is people like you reverend, read parts of books and articles that stimulate their minds to imagination. Then they imagine what the ideal is, and if they are bold enough, they claim they are free of their demons.
Then they spend the rest of their time seeking validation for their imagined reality from others.

Regarding Tolle:
Everyone wants to assume when someone tells a story that whatever happened to them, is how, or what happens to anyone and everyone when they have a cosmic experience of Yoga.
It's why so many morons project religion onto the story of Jesus or Buddha.. And why the new age movement is so stuck in projecting an image of God and Godliness, while they condemn everything that isn't God or the result of God.
The God the enlightened speak of exists in all of the bad and all that people project upon and blame for their depression and psychosis. If they had a different experience of what they judge, they wouldn't separate anything from God, but rather separate their own ignorance and experience of separation from God, as ignorance.

New Age religionists are idealists. Not that there is anything wrong with idealism. It's good to have a dream. But if you never step out of the dream, then its still a dream and not reality.
Originally Posted By: Revlgking

5) How can we become fully, and truly, conscious and spiritual beings--ones beyond being puppets manipulated by the mind (the psyche) and the body (the soma)--the source of our pain and suffering?

Not by reading a book, or listening to a story and imagining how it happens. No doctor ever imagined his way into medicine just by reading a book or listening to a story. Self discovery has nothing to do with comparisons and trying to be someone else. Awakening has nothing to do with taking the mind outward on the senses.

The mind and body are not the source of suffering but rather the result of free will. What the mind absorbs as TRUTH sets the direction for the personal experience. You should know that being that you are familiar with hypnosis.
What you accept as reality sets the stage for the experience.

No one is a puppet really. A person can choose to imagine being one, but that is not the reality of who you are. There is no consciousness outside of yourself manipulating you.
You can hypnotize someone to think they are a dog. But they will not become one and abandon their human being for long other than in the imagination.

Death is usually the reset button for the delusional and the socially hypnotized to begin again and start over.
Originally Posted By: Revlgking

6) Over and over again, Tolle makes the point that, "We are not just minds and bodies..." What do you think he means by this? This following link will help you find answers:

http://www.eckharttolle.com/
and you can search at:
http://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/840..._attempted=true
More likely they will help you discover more questions, IF you had an interest in the first place to give up the idea that you can imagine something you haven't yet become, and then assume to have an opinion about all of it.


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Now, I Thank G~0~D & GD--and I do not mean the false and non-existent gods, or God--for the toggle key.

Thanks also for the opportunity to say more about the use and value of special words and acronyms--the kind often used by all who write, especially writers who take a science/knowledge-based approach to the subjects on which they choose to focus. New ideas always need new to words communicate them the curious.

ORAC, WE NEED YOU? HAVE YOU WRITTEN ABOUT THE BB IN SAGOGO

BEFORE the BIG BANG, What was there?
http://science.howstuffworks.com/dictionary/astronomy-terms/before-big-bang.htm

Search on Father Georges Lemaitre--a Belgian priest who wrote the first paper on the BB in 1927. YouTube video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhLQ_b3bKdI

IMO, the answer is G0D. That which Generates, Organizes & Delivers the singularity: Good/Opportune & Desirable Gifts grow from there.

INTO WHAT IS THE UNIVERSE EXPANDING

http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=274
IMO, the answer is G~~D. The stands for OMNISCIENCE, OMNIPOTENCE, OMNIPRESENCE, OPPORTUNITY & OPTIMISM.
The Tilde [~] symbolizes process philosophy and theology like that of Alfred North Whitehead & the Rev. Charles Hartshorne. Check WIKI.

Lots to think about, eh?


Last edited by Revlgking; 08/09/13 03:29 AM. Reason: Always helpful

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Originally Posted By: Revlgking
Now, I Thank G~0~D & GD--and I do not mean the false and non-existent gods, or God--for the toggle key.

Right because it's reasonable and logical that there is a difference when God becomes an acronym, or more importantly, a special acronym.
Originally Posted By: Revlgking

Thanks also for the opportunity to say more about the use and value of special words and acronyms--the kind often used by all who write, especially writers who take a science/knowledge-based approach to the subjects on which they choose to focus. New ideas always need new to words communicate them the curious.
In this case don't you mean an approach to an idea using scientific theory in a way that suits the writer regardless of whether it is scientific or an accepted scientific fact?

Originally Posted By: Revlgking
BEFORE the BIG BANG, What was there?

IMO, the answer is G0D. That which Generates, Organizes & Delivers the singularity: Good/Opportune & Desirable Gifts grow from there.

Prior to this post you exemplified God as a special acronym which stood for all that came about from nothing. Are you now changing this to God being what existed before that which came about?
Also this idea of generating the singularity where relative good, desirable gifts and the like grow.
Religion likes to preach that there is no real good on the earth, but rather the potential good in all, and that all goodness evolves from sacrifice in life for the eternal gift and reward in an ethereal heaven. Is this what you are speaking of?
Originally Posted By: Revlgking

INTO WHAT IS THE UNIVERSE EXPANDING

Knowing what is in the present moment seems to elude the religionist because as it stands (with most religious philosophers) The good is always coming, but is never NOW.

Originally Posted By: Revlgking

Lots to think about, eh?

1 Corinthians 13:11
When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

Obviously a child does not understand the reality of an adult. Technically speaking the human created in Sin/suffering, with the future being where all good lay (because the current situation is filled with so much suffering) in heaven. The state of the defective human as a child of God, leads to the ultimate growth of the Child into an adult upon a respectable death of the repentant child.

This could be the only thing that would make sense to the religionist who has claimed...
"What comes out of God, is not perfection and Godlike, but has to grow and evolve into Godlike form and function."

I guess God can't pull perfection out of nothing, but rather perfection (goodness and gifts etc.) have to evolve out of chaos and random chance.

Religion: The ultimate lottery! wink


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Yes, with agape-based unitheism, GD as agape/love, all things are possible. But it will not happen by accident.


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Originally Posted By: Revlgking

ORAC, WE NEED YOU? HAVE YOU WRITTEN ABOUT THE BB IN SAGOGO


I have Rev but unfortunately there is no one version of BB and I have apprehensions about most of them.

Originally Posted By: Revlgking


I am even more cynical about things before the big bang and the article goes against me on several fronts.

I would call myself a pragmatist who is also a scientist and given the best available evidence links time strictly with space the idea of talking before time existed I find unscientific.

Trying to put it in your Religious terms I suspect you believe in GOD but is GOD one thing? I have seen you write things that sort of shows this problem and even the blessing Father, Son and Holy Spirit are these three different things or the same thing.


I had to search for this but I found the references

The Father is God. (Matthew 6:8, 7:21, Galatians 1:1)
Jesus is God from the beginning (John 1: 1-18)
The Holy Spirit is God (John 15:26, Mark 3:29, 1 Corinthians 6:19).


This is the same problem as the science question of exists before the Big Bang you have to make assumptions and as a scientist I hate assuming anything. So as a scientist I am very skeptical that we can say anything meaningful about anything prior to the BB, I would at least want some data and evidence.

Direct issues I have with the article on BB is it states the BB starts as a singularity. That is a very General Relativity version of BB and a lot of QM scientists simply do not accept that and I list myself as one. The subject has its own reference and they list several alternatives to the singularity

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Initial_singularity

Quote:

The use of only general relativity to predict what happened in the beginnings of the Universe has been heavily criticized, as quantum mechanics becomes a significant factor in the high-energy environment of the earliest Universe, and general relativity on its own fails to make accurate predictions.


A singularity is such a tricky thing to approach with data and having never seen an infinity or a singularity then I am firmly in the no singularity camp as I doubt they can exist.

So to me the article fails on at least two key points.

Quote:


INTO WHAT IS THE UNIVERSE EXPANDING


That one is easier for me to accept because I am not a "solid worlder". I have never viewed the universe or anything in it as solid for many years because it is so easy to show it can't be so with science.

"Solid worlders" struggle with how things can pass thru matter like neutrons and x-rays and the like because they want the world to be solid and particles to be like solid little balls because for some reason they find that image easier to cope with. The reality is the opposite is the case the most normal thing is for particles to do is pass directly thru matter without interaction the rarity is to interact with matter.

Electromagnetic waves including light would pass directly thru matter if it was not for the electron clouds around the atom. Realistically when light sees matter all it sees is a curtain of charge and as it is an electromagnetic wave it interacts with that charge. Certain materials have atomic charge in a certain way that light will still pass thru them like glass and plastic other materials the charge wall will reflect the wave. So even from a basic understanding of light the world isn't solid and light isn't and never has been a solid particle it simply can appear to be a solid ball because of interactions with media.

To make the point absolute and prove the above point you can do some Quantum trickery and make materials transparent to light

Technical:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetically_induced_transparency

EIT => Basically it "is a quantum interference effect that permits the propagation of light through an otherwise opaque atomic medium"

Layman versions:
http://arstechnica.com/science/2012/03/f...tack-using-eit/
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2011/09/electromagnetic-induced-transparency/


What happens next is some people can't accept that answer because of the human mind games ... no amount of proof can make the world not solid to them.


The whole thing reminds me of Plato's story of the man in the cave I am sure you are familiar with it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory_of_the_Cave


The answer to into what the universe is expanding is nothing as the universe creates space, space does not create the universe. The problem that statement has with people is as humans we still crave to view space as solid and real.

Last edited by Orac; 09/19/13 02:34 PM.

I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.
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Orac, what a vast and interesting dialogue you offer! I wish I could take the time you did, and offer a line-by-line dialogue.

However I will just quote a little bit of what you wrote:
Quote:
...I am even more cynical about things before the big bang and the article goes against me on several fronts.

I would call myself a pragmatist who is also a scientist and given the best available evidence links time strictly with space the idea of talking before time existed I find unscientific.

Trying to put it in your Religious terms I suspect you believe in GOD but is GOD one thing?
Me? As a process theologian, I say that 'god' is a process which includes all things, but is never a thing as such. What we call things emanate, like light from the sun, in the process we call evolution. You say
Quote:
I have seen you write things that sort of shows this problem and even the blessing Father, Son and Holy Spirit are these three different things or the same thing.

I had to search for this but I found the references

The Father is God. (Matthew 6:8, 7:21, Galatians 1:1)
Jesus is God from the beginning (John 1: 1-18)
The Holy Spirit is God (John 15:26, Mark 3:29, 1 Corinthians 6:19)...
So what are you saying about your belief in 'god'? Outline it for us.


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Originally Posted By: Revlgking

So what are you saying about your belief in 'god'? Outline it for us.


I am not sure the message is solely about religion it is that the greatest problem in understanding of anything is getting past the self made illusions .. we are very good at fooling ourselves.


The clinging to illusions we create, even despite demonstrable evidence to the contrary dominates most of our views on things the need and want to create a solid world is just another aspect of that.


Religion seems to have it's own versions of this behavior it is not better or worse than science in that respect it is a human trait not a discipline trait.

I love Plato's cave allegory it is so true of life!

Last edited by Orac; 09/20/13 04:00 AM.

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Orac, check out the following:
SCIENCE-BASED SPIRITUALITY--a book on the topic is now endorsed by 6 Nobel Laureates

Quote:
The Rev. Michael Dowd, a big integrity / big history / epic of evolution enthusiast, is one of the most inspiring speakers in America today.

He is the author of Thank God for Evolution: How the Marriage of Science and Religion Will Transform Your Life and Our World, a book endorsed by 6 Nobel laureates and other science luminaries, including noted skeptics, and by religious leaders across the spectrum.

He and his wife, Connie Barlow, an acclaimed science writer and family educator, have spoken to more than 1,500 groups, as "America's evolutionary evangelists", since launching their itinerant ministry in 2002.

At home in both liberal and conservative settings, and uniquely gifted at building bridges between religious and non-religious people, Michael shares the epic of evolution, our common creation story, in ways that uplift and expand heart, mind, and soul.

An outspoken religious naturalist, his passion is showing how an evolutionary understanding of human nature can inspire and empower each of us to live with greater integrity, joy, and zest for life. New Hampshire Public Television recently aired a 27-minute documentary on Rev. Dowd's ministry.

http://thankgodforevolution.com/the-author

ABOUT THE BOOK
http://thankgodforevolution.com/


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