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#4933 12/14/05 08:09 PM
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This was something I've wondered about for sometime, but should be a piece of cake for you intellectuals. What, if anything would/does a person blind from birth dream of? Unknown Colors? Undiscovered geometeric shapes? Nothingness?

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#4934 12/15/05 12:40 PM
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I'd say just things derived from the remaining senses they have, sound, touch etc? Intelligent sharks could be asking; I wonder if those tasty humans dreams include the electro magnetic pulses of their prey? It?s the same question.

You did not state whether they were born blind. That changes everything.

Here?s a better question, what would someone born with NO senses be thinking. I?d say absolutely nothing.

#4935 12/15/05 03:57 PM
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Why not ask a blind person?


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#4936 12/15/05 04:52 PM
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I agree with Rob. A dream is basically your brain's way of processing information. If a person was born blind, they would have no information on color or geometric shapes to process, just sounds and things gathered with the senses they do have.


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#4937 12/15/05 10:50 PM
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The better question: What does a congenitally blind person see when administered a hallucinogen? DMT is suggested for its short duration and vivid effects.

It is straightforward to imagine how a blind person would describe "seeing" shapes and textures - easy enough to model in clay on a tablet and verify by touch. How would that blind person describe colors?

It must be cogenitally blind subjects otherwise it can be rehash of memory or solitary firing of ordered brain. There is no vision center development post-birth absent external input. Removal of congenital cataracts later in life resulted in a rather amazing rate of suicides. Adult brain is not all that plastic. Additional input was disordered and unwelcome.


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#4938 12/16/05 03:59 PM
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I know some people who are Deaf and Blind from birth, but communication is so limited, I don't think I would be able to ask them such an abstract question.
I would assume they dream of touch. I have the sense of touch in my dreams sometimes.

A person with no senses maybe would experience, "i think therefore i am", but would have no language to express the thought to themself.


~Justine~
#4939 12/19/05 03:15 PM
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I doubt they would. Without any input from the outside world the person would not learn and therefore not know anything. I doubt they would be doing what we call thinking. I think the only active parts of their brain would be the ones we have no control over that maintain survival eg. heartbeat, breathing etc.

#4940 12/19/05 05:10 PM
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im blind

#4941 12/19/05 05:16 PM
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Really? You think there would be no awareness of existance? No boredom? No difference between life and death?
What about if the individual started out normally with all senses and then lost them all in some terrible accident or illness?
I guess they would experience torturous boredom untill they found a way to occupy their mind. Would the mind eventually atrophy or stay active according to the will of the individual?


~Justine~
#4942 12/20/05 12:45 AM
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I think you will find that totally blind individuals are at peace with the world and themselves. Something us sighted, have yet to attain.
Also although the optic nerve may be non functioning or destroyed, putting pressure upon the eyeballs is communicated directly into the brain, since ones eyes are an extension of our brains. What might be experienced, is a matter for conjecture.
Light sensitive electrodes that are implanted into the brain of a blind person.....allow them to 'see' vague shapes. That the blind person needs to interperet those shapes with anothers help, plus his own touch, into a recognisable external shape, depends upon his brain and skill.
Some people state that they can hear their own blood flowing thru their veins, and heart beats


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"You will never find a real Human being - Even in a mirror." ....Mike Kremer.


#4943 12/20/05 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by AFT3RM4TH:
im blind
Assumming you were blind from birth, Could you please enlighten us, with regard to the original question in this thread.


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#4944 12/20/05 05:13 PM
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"What about if the individual started out normally with all senses and then lost them all in some terrible accident or illness?"

Well that changes everything. What I think would happen is (since most of the world is religious, not me) that they would think they had died and were a 'spirit' experiencing the ultimate form of consciousness. I, personally would try to see if i could 'program' my brain to play chess or something with me.

#4945 12/21/05 02:15 PM
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The blind people I know are no more at peace with the world and themselves than sighted people. They do have to face a lot of fustrations due to sighted people not providing accessibility consistantly.
And they are extrememly interested in what science has to offer in the future.

The oppposite is true for Deaf people I know. They are completely satisfied with communication in sign language and are insulted when someone feels pity for them. And many of them fear the advances in technology, especially the cohlear implant, because it threatens the Deaf community and Deaf culture.

Blind people tend to live in hearing culture because they use the same language system. While Deaf people have a different culture based on Sign Language. Language and a shared life experience together creates a new a cherished "Deaf World".


~Justine~
#4946 12/25/05 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Justine:
.........................................>
The oppposite is true for Deaf people I know. They are completely satisfied with communication in sign language and are insulted when someone feels pity for them. And many of them fear the advances in technology, especially the cohlear implant, because it threatens the Deaf community and Deaf culture...............................>
shared life experience together creates a new a cherished "Deaf World".
Yeah well if you are born deaf, you have no other alternative than to live with what you got.
You say these people fear and resent the advances in technology and science?
Do you realise that there are thousands, millions of people who would not be alive today or able to cope in our modern society were it not for the Sciences.
There is so much done for what I call 'the Born Disabled' today. That it is begining to infring upon society as a whole. even slowing down the whole pace of life and evolution.
The disabled, should be the first to embrace technology and science, for without the scientist, they would nor have the -Ear implants, -Cataract removals- Prosthetic limbs- Wheelchairs,-Braille books- Special easy slopes, and handrails into Banks and Public buildings, - Wide entrances to Toilets, Buses - Trains. - Given supervised jobs in factorys.-Special clubs and Outings arranged by 'Trained carers' and Food preparers. Not forgetting the Doctors and Drug manufacturers, who all contribute in a scientific way to keep these people alive, and 'living' after their fashion.
Yep there is money involved, and salarys paid, but were Science not supported and even Goverments (were they to find themselves short funded) these people would vegitate and die bored, in our world. Tired of the difficulties of the life many of them were born into, often thru the sins of their parents.
Who may have damaged their unborn children by the taking of chemicals or drugs. And even the unfortunate....but natural occurence of two people, mating, both carrying a dominant illness or sick gene.
The born disabled,...what ever the reason should embrace Science, it is their reason for living together tentatively, in their world, and existing, with the help of technology from our world.....in our world.


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"You will never find a real Human being - Even in a mirror." ....Mike Kremer.


#4947 12/25/05 11:03 PM
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Do you realise that there are thousands, millions of people who would not be alive today or able to cope in our modern society were it not for the Sciences.

- What Science giveth...

There is so much done for what I call 'the Born Disabled' today. That it is begining to infring upon society as a whole. even slowing down the whole pace of life and evolution.

- ...Science taketh away.

OK - I'm being disingenuous. Your views are not the views of scientists in general, but I have heard too many people so enamoured of the extention of evolutionary thinking into the social-policy arena that I can be justified in thinking that this is where detached logic and reason will eventually take us.

Regards,

Blacknad.

#4948 12/27/05 02:18 PM
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Mike, I didn't mean to disrepresent Deaf people by making such a short statement.

I meant some Deaf people are concerned over the cohlear implant.
In other areas of technology the world has completely opened up recently. Especially with the internet, instant messaging and wireless pagers. You don't have to hear for any of those technologies and they have really leveled out the playing field in many areas for Deaf people. Most Deaf people love those technologies.

I was just trying to emphasis the general differences between many blind people and many Deaf people culturally and their self identification as disabled or as many Deaf people may only view thier situation as being in a language minority with just the barrier of language between them and the hearing world. It's an interesting perspective that's hard for many "non-disabled" people to grasp.
But, I'd say in the last ten years I've seen the Deaf community slowly starting to embrace more of even the cohlear implant technology simply because so many audiologists now have more education in sign language and Deaf culture. Being sensitive to their patients' backround and self identy makes a world of difference.

Science and Technology can be great things as long as the technology is ethically and thoughtfully introduced to society. Or ethically and thoughtfully withheld from society depending on the situation. Or even just slowly introduced instead of coming on the market like a miracle drug, you know what I mean?

In many cases Deaf people aren't broken and don't need to be fixed. They have a visual life experience that's different and cherished. I know it's hard to make that jump in perspective.

And there certainly are deaf people who don't identify themselves as culturally Deaf. They may identify themselves as hard of hearing and are completely gratefully for all new technologies in hearing aides and cohlear implants and anything else that can help integrate themselves successfully with hearing people. Most of these people are not fluent in sign language.

And all the points you made regarding technology as supports used by people to assist people with disabilities are true and are great steps and I hope with all my heart that advocacy and accessibility for people with disabilities continues. It's a worthwhile endevor. And many people with disabilities support other people as well. They are on the giving end, too.


~Justine~
#4949 01/06/06 07:27 PM
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"You did not state whether they were born blind. That changes everything."

Sorry Yersinia, didn't realise that you in-fact DID state that.


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