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Wars, these days are fought with tanks, assault rifles, rocket launchers, missiles and nuclear bombs. The solders are, simply a media for the application of these machines. In man's quest for superiority, he has created such bombs and machines that it could destroy this earth twenty times over. War that was fought on land and the sea expanded to the air and now it's the space. Death and destruction looms wherever we go. No country is safe.

Science is useful only if man is here. If mankind is wiped out, what is the use of science? People are therefore beginning to realize that science is for man and should not be against him. Politics and the misuse of science for useless benefits have made science into a monster, but with correct application humans can turn science around and make it work for his benefit.

Modern wars are more deadly and destructive than ancient ones. They wreak havoc in an alarmingly large scale. The loss of life and property is so huge that even the bloodiest wars. Defenses can and have been created against a lot of these methods, but we have no defense against the greatest of all threats, the nuclear bomb. It can wipe out cities and kill its entire population in a matter of seconds. so, the question we ought to ask is "Do we really want to fight a war which can destroy all that our forefathers have created over the centuries in a matter of seconds?" "what kind of a world are we going to hand over to our children?" "Do we have any right to let our children inherit blood, death, destruction and ruined economies because we were stupid enough to cause and participate in a nuclear war?"

If the answer to the question are "no", then it is time to act and change this world and pressurized our politicians that war benefits no one but peace and harmony make life easier and better and war is not the way to settle disputes. We would all be happier, more prosperous and

grateful to science and scientists.

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There are characteristics within Humanity, that are not specific to politicians. Greed, fear, anger, self worth issues etc. These conditions are said to be genetically inherited, stimulated thru conditioning or being exposed to social mores where we are taught to measure our own worth, live up to standards and to compete without thinking of the consequences to our neighbors or environment.

Arrogance is not just a political thing. War is not just a political thing. Cult behavior is not isolated to religion.

Scientists are just as guilty of displaying dysfunctional behavior as any other group of individuals who seek to set themselves apart from the herd.

Wars are fought with the men and the tools of human idealism.
No man stands apart from the reality that influence and belief in an authority outside of ones self is the norm.

Scientist,/politician/religionist: all can be observed wanting to have an authority over reality and to dictate the reality of life to others.

IF you look into the Milgram experiment, not one in the experiment showed themselves to be impervious to the suggestions of the authority given to those in charge.

The biggest war, is the war for the seat of authority.
What science or religion is without political influence or structure within its own system of definition in name and functionality?


I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!




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Ahh another star eyed nave pacifist ... I do admire people who have conviction of belief in pacifism.

The problem is you assume that a great number of scientists might remotely share your idea and beliefs.

Science is about studying how the world works and we come from all sorts of backgrounds and religions and the concept of pacifism is probably no higher than any random sample of people selected from a population.

Worse still science doesn't rate pacifism as a desirable trait and science doesn't care about popularity and how it is viewed by the media, religions or any other organization. Hence science does not readily attract pacifists or aspire to it or become a discipline that attracts pacifists.

Do scientists care that people are grateful and think fondly of science and them ... for a group of scientists that ratio is probably lower than a random sample. You don't do science to become a better person, fame or for the low pay ... most do it for knowledge or other related personal reasons.

Nothing wrong with trying to change the world and many scientists would argue they are doing it rather than talking about it but I do wish you all the best in your quest.

As many on this forum know I am never optimistic about human behavior and I suspect you will learn the lesson that many of the great pacifists in history learnt as we nailed them to the cross, shot them or imprisoned them .... pacifism is a great ideal but the opposition doesn't play by the same rules.

Good luck and may you run faster than those chasing you.


I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.
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Originally Posted By: Tutor Turtle

The biggest war, is the war for the seat of authority.
What science or religion is without political influence or structure within its own system of definition in name and functionality?


Science just knows how to decide who gets to sit in the seat of authority, the one who can publish a scientific theory that can't be falsified and expands knowledge ... it's not about any sort of popularity or authority.

That's why science can't be controlled or crushed by religion, politics or military ... the ultimate control is not a person or organization but an ideal a singular goal of all scientists.

That is the reason science looks and works the same no matter what the background of the person or politics of the country doing it.

The bonus science has is that knowledge has always equaled power be it military, economic or political and thus those who want power aid and value science.

It is the secret of why science survives and always will.

Many of the other things like you describe such as politics and religion need a person or body to be the authority over it and thus are inherently fragile to corruption from within and influences from outside.

Last edited by Orac; 07/24/13 02:21 PM.

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Originally Posted By: Orac
Originally Posted By: Tutor Turtle

The biggest war, is the war for the seat of authority.
What science or religion is without political influence or structure within its own system of definition in name and functionality?


Science just knows how to decide who gets to sit in the seat of authority, the one who can publish a scientific theory that can't be falsified and expands knowledge ... it's not about any sort of popularity or authority.

http://www.plosmedicine.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pmed.0020124
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2011/12/30/was-2011-the-year-of-scientific-retractions/
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2012/sep/13/scientific-research-fraud-bad-practice
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/a...-colleague.html
http://science.discovery.com/strange-science/10-science-mistakes.htm

Originally Posted By: Orac

That's why science can't be controlled or crushed by religion, politics or military ... the ultimate control is not a person or organization but an ideal a singular goal of all scientists.
Just need to agree who fits the science/scientist definition and profile
Originally Posted By: Orac to Imaging geek

So as a scientist you have two options show me that what you propose does not violate QM or falsify QM ... take your choice there are no others.

Originally Posted By: Orac


Ok .. I didn't quite get that from what you said ... you seemed to be insisting something which I obviously misunderstood?

Originally Posted By: ImagingGeek
Originally Posted By: Orac
As I said I am not forgetting this arguement at all and I want to come back to it. I totally disagree with everything you have written but it can wait for now I need to fill in some detail. It is you who is now being argumentative I have said on at least 3 occasions lets sort the science and come back to this.

This IS the science. you continue to avoid it for some reason.

Originally Posted By: Amaranth Rose II
Orac, please refrain from the tit-for-tat exchange of insults. It cheapens you and doesn't do anything for the forum as a whole. Don't poop in your own well.

Originally Posted By: Orac

That is the reason science looks and works the same no matter what the background of the person or politics of the country doing it.

Looks like human ego
Originally Posted By: Orac

The bonus science has is that knowledge has always equaled power be it military, economic or political and thus those who want power aid and value science.

Knowledge without principles, understanding and experience, can only be equal to a loaded gun in the hands of a child.
Any child can throw a tantrum.
Originally Posted By: Orac

It is the secret of why science survives and always will.

Spirituality I'll bet is older that what you call science. Unless you call the world being flat and a few other ideas listed in the link recording the ten scientific mistakes of the past, science.
Originally Posted By: Orac

Many of the other things like you describe such as politics and religion need a person or body to be the authority over it and thus are inherently fragile to corruption from within and influences from outside.

You definition of science as a self governing entity without the human factor being without corruption is an ideal.
Kinda like what you see religion creating with a God.


I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!




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You won't get any argument from me on any of that TT I think you are probably correct on all counts.

You missed my other glaring bad point I sometimes lose my temper smile


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I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!




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nah ..



I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.
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Ok, you want to do something for your World?
I suggest you get into Politics as soon as possible, at least
you can vent your frustrations upon your fellow politicians before you lose your naive confidence in your fellow man.


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"You will never find a real Human being - Even in a mirror." ....Mike Kremer.


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Do I get to dive over the desk and choke them to death when they are being beyond stupid on issues?

There are a few politicians I already have on my list smile


I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.
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Originally Posted By: Orac
Do I get to dive over the desk and choke them to death when they are being beyond stupid on issues?


Only if you agree to do that to some of our politicians who are dead ignorant and practicing anti-science fundamentalism. I mean those bastions of ignorance in the Repuglican party who have come out with really stupid, utterly wrong statements about women and reproduction. They obviously slept through their high school science classes, and remain willfully ignorant about the workings of the human body. We could do with a few less of those.


If you don't care for reality, just wait a while; another will be along shortly. --A Rose

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What about the media, which won't correct these myopic notions? They deserve a throttling too, istm.

People still think the Mann Hockey Stick was "falsified" and proven wrong, because of media coverage surrounding stolen innocuous emails, but the normal scientific review process verified what was right and what was wrong, and removed any questionable (per the critics) proxy; and the Hockey Stick still maintained its shape.

Mann's graph is still valid and useful, but nobody has a source for that updated information. Only the old, agenda-driven, blogostorm remains as a source of information.

Media needs to remind people about our agreed upon reality, as each new cohort matures; about how science works, as well as basic notions such as how rape and racism are bad, and how one may need to consciously make an effort to be civilized. Apparently, it doesn't come naturally, instinctually, or even through simple osmosis. Active transport is needed!


Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.
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Case in point:

"Had the city provided mandatory sexual harassment training to Mayor Filner, Ms. McCormack Jackson may never have brought her lawsuit." -SOURCE: UPI/LA Times, Aug. 2, Los Angeles Times

~


Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

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