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#49268 - 07/24/13 11:38 PM Science-based ECONOMICS--Take a LOOK, OK!........
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
WHAT ARE BIT COINS? Here is the latest information about what I have been exploring--The creation of A COMMUNITY-CURRENCY SYSTEM--since the 1960s. It seems that the 'puter is now helping things happen. Very interesting!
For details, check out this link:
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/FAQ#What_are_bitcoins.3F
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#49269 - 07/25/13 01:10 AM Re: Science-based ECONOMICS--Take a LOOK, OK!........ [Re: Revlgking]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Registered: 06/19/08
Posts: 1249
Loc: Everywhere and nowhere
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#49271 - 07/25/13 03:30 AM Re: Science-based ECONOMICS--Take a LOOK, OK!........ [Re: Tutor Turtle]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4135
do Canadian laws prevent its people from creating a local monetary system?

and if you were able to legally create a local monetary system
what would the money be backed by?

if you choose something like gold or silver or the stock market to back the money then the value of the money will fluctuate way too much.

even the electronic bits will fluctuate with the money that is used to buy the bits with.

think about this , if you were on a deserted island with someone who had cans of food.

and you had a handful of thousand dollar bills , which would
have more value?

the food or the paper.

you'll need to find something that can not lose its value to use to back the money you make , something that can not be linked to the established Canadian currency..

but what could that be.

could you set prices on certain goods so that when the new money is used to purchase those goods those prices will never increase or change?

maybe you could purchase the right to buy a loaf of bread
with one of the new dollars and if the price of a loaf of bread goes to 5 dollars Canadian , your new dollar will still buy a
loaf of bread.


why not just buy gold and silver and hold.
_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#49273 - 07/25/13 04:50 AM Re: Science-based ECONOMICS--Take a LOOK, OK!........ [Re: paul]
Orac Offline
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Registered: 05/20/11
Posts: 2819
Loc: Currently Illinois, USA
You do it USA and it has been done by conceptual artist Jonathon Keats when he created the quantum bank

http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/bankers-are-both-furious-and-indifferent-about-the-quantum-atm
http://physicsbuzz.physicscentral.com/2013/06/quantum-banking-comes-to-new-york.html

No law against it so long as the ultimate value is set against US dollar he simply made 1 Quantum dollar = 1 US dollar.

Bit coin was only a concern to USA because it didn't use US dollar as it's value.
_________________________
I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.

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#49274 - 07/25/13 01:01 PM Re: Science-based ECONOMICS--Take a LOOK, OK!........ [Re: Revlgking]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Registered: 06/19/08
Posts: 1249
Loc: Everywhere and nowhere


_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#49275 - 07/25/13 01:22 PM Re: Science-based ECONOMICS--Take a LOOK, OK!........ [Re: Orac]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4135
why would I want to use a currency that is linked to a failing economy?

I would rather use a currency that is not linked to any controllable economy , this way the value of my currency can
not be inflated or deflated by the stupid moves that politicians
make because of campaign contributions.

I can remember when gold was 20 dollars an ounce , now due to
stupid political decisions gold is 1323 an ounce , down from 1900 an ounce in only 2 years.

but when gold was 20 an ounce in the U.S. the U.S. was a strong
growing economic giant.

now the idiots we elected have destroyed that great economy just so they could get elected to office.

gold hasn't really gained any value , the dollar has simply lost its value.

and that's why gold cost more dollars when you buy gold in an
inflated economy.



you can buy these on ebay for the price of postage and handling.

its where were going.

thanks to our politicians.








_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#49277 - 07/25/13 02:05 PM Re: Science-based ECONOMICS--Take a LOOK, OK!........ [Re: Tutor Turtle]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4135
TT

That's the way I think about any type of electronic currency also.

it is destined to fail simply because it requires energy.

solar power is failing due to the added water vapor in the atmosphere and politicians campaign donations.

wind power is failing due to the extreme velocities of the wind and politicians campaign donations.

water power is not being exploited as much as it should be because of greed and politicians campaign donations.

that leaves nuclear , oil , gasoline , coal and thermal.

none of which are sustainable for any extreme environment
other than thermal.

and thermal is not being exploited as much as it should be
due to the cost and politicians campaign donations.


I suppose it could work if the device that holds the data had
a hand cranked generator on it , and the servers that transfer
the data to and from other devices also were hand cranked to
avoid data loss.

but I'm certain that the politicians can destroy that possibility also , I have that much faith in them as our leaders.

its what they do to us , and they are really good at it.


_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#49278 - 07/25/13 02:15 PM Re: Science-based ECONOMICS--Take a LOOK, OK!........ [Re: paul]
Orac Offline
Megastar

Registered: 05/20/11
Posts: 2819
Loc: Currently Illinois, USA
Originally Posted By: paul

gold hasn't really gained any value , the dollar has simply lost its value.


Not really arguing with your argument Paul but interested in why you think gold has any value at all?

So why do we continue to value gold at all ... why is it valued at more than say salt.

An interesting thing is the price of saffron at the moment is around $400 a troy ounce and you can grow it smile
_________________________
I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.

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#49280 - 07/25/13 02:50 PM Re: Science-based ECONOMICS--Take a LOOK, OK!........ [Re: Orac]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4135
Quote:
why you think gold has any value at all?


because people value it.

in my opinion I value gold because gold value travels in the opposite direction of dollar value.

the dollar value decreases = gold price increases.
the dollar value increases = gold price decreases.

think of it as a hedge fund against inflation.
if deflation occurs then the dollar hedges your gold and
you should buy more gold.

as for the saffron value , and salt value.

history shows that salt was used as a currency between nations
people / soldiers were even paid salt as wages in the past because their currency was not easily exchanged for other goods.

spices were also used as trade currency.

look at this.



saffron gatherers in the bronze age.

Quote:
A detail from the "Saffron Gatherers" fresco of the "Xeste 3" building. It is one of many depicting saffron; they were found at the Bronze Age settlement of Akrotiri, on the Aegean island of Santorini.



Quote:
why is it valued at more than say salt.



I wonder how many salt mines have been purchased in the past
with gold as gold prices were noticed to be dropping.

those who trust that gold will hold its value also know that
gold will lose its value , and a prudent investor will find
a stable currency to transition into while gold is losing its value then he will transition back into gold as gold prices begin to rise.

he now has more gold.

he has lost nothing.

and he has a salt mine.
_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#49282 - 07/25/13 07:10 PM Re: Science-based ECONOMICS--Take a LOOK, OK!........ [Re: paul]
Bill Offline
Megastar

Registered: 12/31/10
Posts: 1858
Loc: Oklahoma, USA
Originally Posted By: Paul
I can remember when gold was 20 dollars an ounce , now due to stupid political decisions gold is 1323 an ounce , down from 1900 an ounce in only 2 years.

I'm not really trying to get into this discussion, but in 1934 the price of gold in the USA was set at $35 an ounce. At that time the US economy was in shambles. Are you sure that the gold standard will stabilize the economy?

Bill Gill
_________________________
C is not the speed of light in a vacuum.
C is the universal speed limit.

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#49283 - 07/25/13 11:49 PM Re: Science-based ECONOMICS--Take a LOOK, OK!........ [Re: Bill]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4135
it was in the 60's - 70's , I remember it because I thought it was a really low price for gold , it was on the news on tv.

minimum wage was around $2.35 an hour.

less than 10 hours of work at minimum wage would buy you an
ounce of gold.

heres a chart of average prices dating back to 1833

http://www.nma.org/pdf/gold/his_gold_prices.pdf

now you would need to work apx 180 hours at minimum wage
$7.25 an hour to buy an ounce of gold at 1323 an ounce.
well that was this afternoon sry its now 1333 an ounce.

that just shows how inflated the dollar has become ever since
the politicians decided that it was better for people in other
countries to work than the people that vote for them.

Quote:
Are you sure that the gold standard will stabilize the economy?


I never said that it would , I did say that gold can offset
the negative effects of the value of the dollar as it inflates.

I will say that our economy will never stabilize as long as
our People do not have good paying jobs , that are not pretend
good paying jobs due to inflation that has caused wages to increase so that people can buy the bare necessities.

a brand new Ford F100 pickup truck cost $900.00 in the 70's
at $2.35 an hour you would need to work 382 hours to buy one.

today a brand new Ford F100 is about $13,000
at $7.25 an hour you would need to work 1,793 hours to buy one.

inflation , its what you get when you have politicians who
are only concerned with getting elected or re-elected.

the equivalent buying power of $2.35 an hour in the 70's
today would be $34.00 an hour according to Ford F100 prices
$13,000 / 382 hours = $34.00

if you earn less than $34.00 an hour today you are earning less than people did when minimum wages were $2.35 an hour in the 70's

OK , they must have been having a sale on F 100's when I saw
the advertisement.

http://www.nadaguides.com/Classic-Cars/1970/Ford/F100/1-2-Ton-Styleside-LWB/Values

$2,675.00

looks like they no longer make F 100's !!

lets go with the F 150's

http://www.ford.com/trucks/f150/

$24,070.00

but you get the picture.










_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#49284 - 07/26/13 01:17 AM Re: Science-based ECONOMICS--Take a LOOK, OK!........ [Re: paul]
pokey Offline
Member

Registered: 08/22/07
Posts: 84
Paul typed:

"a brand new Ford F100 pickup truck cost $900.00 in the 70's..."


Must disagree (you must be a young fella), they were about $2500 USD in 1970.

http://www.oldride.com/library/1970_ford_f100.html

Model Number Body Type & Seating Factory Price Shipping Wt
83 - Flareside 6.5 ft $2,510 3,475

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#49285 - 07/26/13 01:37 AM Re: Science-based ECONOMICS--Take a LOOK, OK!........ [Re: pokey]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4135
I've already corrected that , they used to have clearance sales
when the new models were coming out so that they could have room
for the new models , it seemed like everyone was buying new cars then , as I remember they would take anything you could push in to the car lot as a trade in , who knows they may have had some
type of insurance that covered the loss in sales.

these days you can still find 2 and 3 year old new cars and trucks on the dealers lots.

BTW , I could have bought a nice 65 mustang convertable in 1973
for $250.00 but I already had a car.

LOL

plus , I bought a cadillac for $15.00 once.
and someone broke down in front of my house and they gave me
the pontiac tempest ( 327 I think ) for a ride to the airport !!!



_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#49286 - 07/26/13 02:40 AM Re: Science-based ECONOMICS--Take a LOOK, OK!........ [Re: pokey]
Mike Kremer Offline

Megastar

Registered: 10/16/04
Posts: 1696
Loc: London UK
The value of trucks, Cars ,Houses, in the past is all relative
to the value of that countries currency, at that time.
Today we are tied to the value of the US Dollar.
Yesterday, in Europe, it was the Swiss Franc and various European currencys that were artificially forced to keep within a monetary Euro-snake.

The rates of Exchange today are totally artificial.

I would like to see a Country's Monetary system based upon
the value of its Exports
Its rather like an individual who thru hard work earns more,
and can afford a better life style for his family.

Only in this case, I would like to see the Gross National value
of a Countries Exports, Divided by the Number in its Population
This should give you the true worth a countries currencies
compared to other countrys.

I am not sure how this could be implemented, but it would show the true value of a currency in ones pocket, and therefore
easily allow one to calculate where Goverments, and you, should buy or sell your exports or items from.

For instance the highest rated (value) currency in the World,
should be:- Germany with a rating value of 18,136
Followed by:-Saudi Arabia,rating value of 13,700
Followed by:- Israel ,with rating value of 7,680
Followed by:- the UK, with a value of 7,511
Followed by the USA, with a rated value, 4,936
Then:- Russia, with a rated value of 3,706
Then:- China , with a rated value of 1514

And so on, These are just 7 countries picked out, due to my own interest, thats all nothing else..
It dos'nt matter if the country has massive Exports due to the sale of Oil...
Its Exports Divided by Population...which then shows you the strongest Currencies in order of strength

Below are the Export values ($) by Country

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2078rank.html

and here are Countries populations:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population

So you can work out your own rankings.
Its easy to see now why Germany is the leader and almost supporting the Euro Common Market etc.

I would be interested to know whether anyone can find any value in this idea?
_________________________
.

.
"You will never find a real Human being - Even in a mirror." ....Mike Kremer.



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#49289 - 07/26/13 03:43 AM Re: Science-based ECONOMICS--Take a LOOK, OK!........ [Re: Revlgking]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4135
OK , Rev

it's backed by the current Canadian currency , are the
dollar values tied together or do they fluctuate?

if they are directly tied together then why bother with it
is my first thought.

was there a Canadian currency shortage that inspired the
Toronto dollar?

I haven't read the links you posted yet.
_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#49290 - 07/26/13 04:02 AM Re: Science-based ECONOMICS--Take a LOOK, OK!........ [Re: Revlgking]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Quote:
Originally Posted By: paul
do Canadian laws prevent its people from creating a local monetary system?

and if you were able to legally create a local monetary system
what would the money be backed by? ...

No. A group of us, in October, 1998, set up the first Toronto-dollar system. The mayor--a friend--was present and bought the first dollars.

There has never been any problem with the government--provincially, or federally. The Toronto $ is backed by Canadian currency. The big challenge is getting enough people willing to volunteer to help make the system work well. Human nature being what it is, new ideas often meet resistance. Look how long it took some nations to get rid of slavery--still a problem in some areas, and cultures.
For details, check out http://www.torontodollar.com/

The next challenge? Freedom-loving people need a truly democratic kind of capitalism--one in which money serves us, not the other way round.

For your information, check out the work of Professor Bernard Lietaer. Recently, he addressed a meeting of our group:
http://www.transaction.net
===============================
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#49291 - 07/26/13 04:04 AM Re: Science-based ECONOMICS--Take a LOOK, OK!........ [Re: Mike Kremer]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4135
those Germans are good.

I have often wondered what the world would be like if there
never was a WW2 or a nazi party.

the only reason there was a WW2 was because of the economy.

the nazi economy demanded war , it's economy was based on being
a ever growing war machine.

those who had money to build economies chose to horde that
money or to put it into other countries.

then again , there might not even be any people in the world
because nuclear bombs would have come into being without knowing the long term effects of a nuclear exchange and if
a really large exchange would have taken place because of the
lack of that knowledge then perhaps no one would have survived.

I don't think we should base our economy on exports only
just because other countries make almost everything we buy these days.

maybe we should use the price of salt in each country and base each countries dollar value on how much salt can be bought with each countries dollar.

its free but it has value , plus it really does not fluctuate much.
_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#49292 - 07/26/13 04:14 AM Re: Science-based ECONOMICS--Take a LOOK, OK!........ [Re: paul]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
ABOUT BERNARD LIETAER--with whom I have been in touch, by e-mail, for over a decade: Let's take a look at him and his ideas.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Lietaer


Edited by Revlgking (07/26/13 04:20 AM)
Edit Reason: Always helpful
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#49295 - 07/26/13 01:33 PM Re: Science-based ECONOMICS--Take a LOOK, OK!........ [Re: Revlgking]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4135
Rev

I browsed the several types of local currency methods at
the transaction.net site.

I have a problem with any currency who's value can be
manipulated by people who have loads of money.

If were looking to stabilize currency then we can not allow
currency to be traded like stocks.

currency has no real value.

its like borrowing money on the papers you get when you take
out a loan at the bank.

money only has value when it is used to purchase a product or service.

a federal reserve note such as a dollar bill is nothing but a loan that is given to the federal reserve banks by the federal reserve ( which is just a few uber rich folk ) and it is the People of the United States who must repay the loan through interest , the People are the collateral taken for security in the loan.

all currencies are worthless until you need to take out a loan
by spending a dollar bill.

to make it really simple , if you have a volume of dollar bill notes that equal 1 million dollars , then you have the right to
put the People of the U.S. 1 million dollars further in debt.

this means that any volume of federal reserve note's sitting
in someone's bank account earning interest causes the amount
that the People of the U.S. owe to the fed to increase by every cent of interest paid to that account.

the federal reserve makes dollars by recording dollar amounts
in their accounting system.

those dollars are nothing but loans to be loaned to the federal reserve banks.

those dollars are then loaned to the federal reserve banks
the federal reserve banks then print out the amount of dollars on the loan.

and the federal reserve banks then loan those dollar notes to federal reserve branch banks.

people can then apply for the right to spend those federal reserve notes by taking out a loan against what they are worth
or the worth of a product.


the federal reserve is a ponzi scheme.
and that's all it is.

the federal reserve
( which is not connected to the United States Government )
was created in 1913 by the uber rich who had been bailing out
the U.S. government for quite some time.

and the U.S. currency became like stocks , that can be bought and sold which caused the value to fluctuate.

it wasnt long after that that the fed approached the U.S.
government and informed them that the government was bankrupt.

the government needed money , so the social security act
was created , this gave the U.S. government a way to pay its
debts to the federal reserve.

the details show that title to every U.S. citizen is used
as collateral in the loans that the Fed grants to the U.S. government.

or something like that.

now for a little conspiracy !!!

LOL

what if , the FEMA camps were built to hold foreclosed upon collected citizen's due to non payment to the fed by the amount of taxes that the government collects that are shuttled directly to the fed ( ponzi scheme )?

what if , the many vacant cities in china were built to house
the foreclosed upon property ( U.S. Citizens ) that belongs
to the fed (ponzi scheme).

so that the fed can place these foreclosed on properties
( U.S. Citizens )into work camps in china in order to recover payment on the unpaid loans.

Bags of Salt Water have value.

MUHAHAHAHAAAAAAA !

_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#49301 - 07/26/13 10:53 PM Re: Science-based ECONOMICS--Take a LOOK, OK!........ [Re: Revlgking]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Originally Posted Paul,
Quote:
Rev, I browsed the several types of local currency methods at the transaction.net site....
GOOD! for you. You seem open-minded and willing to listen, without prejudice (I hope) to the opinion of others. In the same spirit (that is, pneuma, spiritus, ruach, ruh and whatever) I will listen to you, or to anyone.

BTW, as an amateur & lover of economics, I MAKE NO CLAIM THAT I AM AN EXPERT economist with all those charts.

Therefore, if I appear be dogmatic, or opinionated, feel free--anyone--to let me, and all interested, know.

Paul, as you say,
Quote:
I have a problem with any currency who's value can be manipulated by people who have loads of money.
then you suggest your solution
Quote:
If we are looking to stabilize currency--I assume you mean: the value of the currency we use--then we ought not allow currency to be traded like stocks ... currency has no real value.
I agree and I put it this way: The federal paper, which we call money, or currency, has no intrinsic value. It is simply a record of what the banks says we owe to the lenders and to one another.

Therefore, FIAT money, created by government in cahoots with the banks, is simply an IOU; it is a number on a piece of fancy paper. The number is a statement of what capital we now owe, and the "rent" we need to pay, over time, on any debt we still owe.

This system makes for INFLATION--the thief of all real wealth--INEVITABLE.
=========
Got to go, now! I will be back to comment on your other comments, OK!

============================================

AS YOU SAY,
Quote:
... its like borrowing money on the papers you get when you take out a loan at the bank.

money only has value when it is used to purchase a product or service.

a federal reserve note such as a dollar bill is nothing but a loan that is given to the federal reserve banks by the federal reserve ( which is just a few uber rich folk ) and it is the People of the United States who must repay the loan through interest , the People are the collateral taken for security in the loan.

all currencies are worthless until you need to take out a loan by spending a dollar bill.

to make it really simple , if you have a volume of dollar bill notes that equal 1 million dollars , then you have the right to put the People of the U.S. 1 million dollars further in debt.

This means that any volume of federal reserve note's sitting
in someone's bank account earning interest causes the amount
that the People of the U.S. owe to the fed to increase by every cent of interest paid to that account.

the federal reserve makes dollars by recording dollar amounts
in their accounting system.

those dollars are nothing but loans to be loaned to the federal reserve banks.

those dollars are then loaned to the federal reserve banks
the federal reserve banks then print out the amount of dollars on the loan.

and the federal reserve banks then loan those dollar notes to federal reserve branch banks.

people can then apply for the right to spend those federal reserve notes by taking out a loan against what they are worth
or the worth of a product.


the federal reserve is a ponzi scheme.
and that's all it is. ...


Edited by Revlgking (07/27/13 03:37 AM)
Edit Reason: Always helpful!
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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