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#47671 - 01/18/13 01:21 AM Re: Mass & Velocity [Re: Orac]
redewenur Offline
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Originally Posted By: Orac
If Paul wants his black/white world that is fine but it looks like Rede has understood it and so my teaching is done to those who want to listen.
Dear me, don't we flatter ourselves smile
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"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

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#47672 - 01/18/13 01:24 AM Re: Mass & Velocity [Re: redewenur]
Orac Offline
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Hey someone has to love me god knows you bastards all hate me .... lucky I am not here to be popular smile

Okay I admit it I am a very bad person cry

There is probably a whole psychology thesis about me in that ... queue TT laugh

EDIT: I thought rather than a meaningless post lets put some useful information for those of the science mind.

The definition of observer also creates some english linguistics with layman about what is and what defines an observer. Lubos has put up a nice article on it

http://motls.blogspot.com.au/2013/01/quantum-physics-doesnt-depend-on.html


Edited by Orac (01/18/13 01:56 AM)
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#47673 - 01/18/13 02:49 AM Re: Mass & Velocity [Re: Bill S.]
Bill Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bill S.
Bill, one has to wonder if Nicoll's specific choice of narrative was in any way influenced by his having been the owner of a roll-playing game store.

Perhaps the English with which he was acquainted in such an environment, in US, would have had a degree of originality foreign to its native habitat. laugh

Well, I'm not sure where his idea came from. I just love the quote because it is so descriptive of the general usage of English. After all, every society with which the English have interacted has supplied some words and phrases to the English language. English really is a kind of a rag bag of words from every place. There are variations in different places around the world, but they are all infected with the disease.

Bill Gill
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C is not the speed of light in a vacuum.
C is the universal speed limit.

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#47674 - 01/18/13 02:53 AM Re: Mass & Velocity [Re: Orac]
Orac Offline
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Eureka had a brainstorm thought about it and can falsify your light/mirror boundary example Paul.

Simply put the mirror and torch in motion together

http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110603/full/news.2011.346.html

http://io9.com/5806580/mirrors-can-actually-create-light-through-the-magic-of-quantum-weirdness

The mirror has to be special but it is now emitting light back at the light bulb.

Now I am going to get really funky and select the movement speed of the mirror tourch combo to make the mirror emit a specific frequency that is just below the emission frequency of the light bulb or led. It may require single photon frequency conversion to get the exact frequency required I haven't bothered with looking at the exact mathematics.

Remember laser cooling which we discussed at length in a post guess what the mirrors emission is now going to do ... haha?

Did you guess it the mirrors emission is going to cool and put out the light bulb emission.

Now that is really weird and as much as you probably are scratching your head if I could engineer that QM experiment the mirror would indeed be made to emit and put out the light.

See you need to be very careful about insisting things because there are some really weird conditions you can setup under QM.

Hence I have proved with a fully testable experiment that your one way directionality of light from bulb to mirror is not a fundemental law it is a generalization and there are weird reversals of that scenario possible using QM.

Its weird its extremely unlikely and your will never see it in nature BUT IT IS POSSIBLE smile


Edited by Orac (01/18/13 03:26 AM)
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#47675 - 01/18/13 03:34 AM Re: Mass & Velocity [Re: Orac]
paul Offline
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Posts: 4136
from what I read they simply vibrated a mirror.
and a shower of photons came out of it.

how does that prove anything?

photons are almost everywhere anyway I used to watch them in
a vacuum all the time , all I had to do was turn on the TV.

I suspect that the vibrations just had a mechanical effect
on the photons that are normally there anyway.

like hitting a baseball with a bat.

perhaps the photon's heated up as they sped out of the glass
after being hit by the baseball bat ( the vibrations ) simply classic .

or maybe its like this.
the photon velocity impacts with the mirror velocity
traveling in the opposite direction so
the photon bounces off at a higher velocity
the glass slow's the super fast photon down
and the result is light from the heat.


still that doesn't make the flashlight and mirror example
invalid.

and why are they calling it the magic of QM?

its nothing but a effect of vibration.

I think QM has the big head.







_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#47676 - 01/18/13 03:51 AM Re: Mass & Velocity [Re: paul]
Orac Offline
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This is pointless arguing with you because you are just out of hand reject of QM theory in favour of your own Paul brand of physics based on what your gut instinct, what ifs and maybe its like this.

You don't think that actual scientists questioned your sort of logic ... don't bother answering I already know your response it is all a conspiracy.

The bottom line is I can make a mirror put out a light you don't think that is weird.

What I find hillarious is you obviously use the internet and computers and electronic devices and yet you out of hand reject Quantum Mechanics there is such a funny irony there you will never understand smile

Anyhow lets forget it and move on ... believe what you want not worth wasting time on.


Edited by Orac (01/18/13 04:03 AM)
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#47677 - 01/18/13 04:03 AM Re: Mass & Velocity [Re: Orac]
paul Offline
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Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
what has QM got to do with my computer?

is QM going to lay claim on everything now?

and your wrong about me rejecting QM theory , like I have
said I am just trying to understand it , there's no reason for you to say things like that either , all I have done is
question what you said.

still , the flashlight and mirror question remains unanswered.

if there are exchanges taking place ( transfers ) they are not between the flashlight and mirror.

I think that figuring out why this happens , because you pointed out that QM says it would not
happen would be the smarter thing to do, than to ignore it and continue learning QM.

Quote:
Anyhow lets forget it and move on ... believe what you want not worth wasting time on.


I never ran into this type of problem in classical physics
where I couldn't use physics to find out why or how something
happens maybe that's why I question QM.

perhaps one of the other guys might know why this
contradiction occurs.

Quote:
The bottom line is I can make a mirror put out a light you don't think that is weird.


not really , its really not something special or weird.

there's always a classical explanation.
so I'm not enthused nor did it
stir considerable passion in my breast.



_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#47678 - 01/18/13 04:14 AM Re: Mass & Velocity [Re: paul]
Orac Offline
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Loc: Currently Illinois, USA
Originally Posted By: paul
what has QM got to do with my computer?


Quantum mechanics is part of workings of any transistor, and therefore in any integrated circuit.

I slected discovery magazine to quote because they put it all in nice layman terms for you.

Originally Posted By: discovery

Thanks to groundbreaking discoveries in quantum mechanics, Stanford researcher Eugene Wigner and his student, Frederick Seitz, were the first to manipulate the properties of semiconductors in the 1930s. Armed with their research, scientists from Bell Laboratories developed the first rudimentary transistors over the next decade, and by 1954, the United States military had constructed TRIDAC, the first transistor-based computer. Unlike the monstrous, unreliable vacuum-tube computers that preceded it, TRIDAC occupied only 3 cubic feet (0.08 cubic meters) and needed only 100 watts of power to operate [source: PBS]. Today, companies like Intel and AMD fabricate cutting-edge microprocessors containing billions of microprocessors, and we have quantum mechanics to thank.


IBM, Intel and all the processor manufacturers have teams of QM people to push the limits of what is possible what do you think it all happens by chance?

Surely even you can see the irony at work here smile

Perhaps you want to rewrite your own version of history as well as science now to exclude QM.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Seitz

=> Seitz moved to Princeton University to study metals under Eugene Wigner, gaining his PhD in 1934. He and Wigner pioneered one of the first quantum theories of crystals, and developed concepts in solid-state physics such as the Wigner–Seitz unit cell.


Edited by Orac (01/18/13 04:25 AM)
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#47679 - 01/18/13 04:27 AM Re: Mass & Velocity [Re: Orac]
paul Offline
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Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
I guess you got me on that one.
they are inside the chips.
millions if not more.
I should have looked it up.

but still , that doesn't solve our little problem
with the flashlight and the mirror.

could it be that there are one way exchanges
( transfers,whatever ) in QM?

I'm not interested in re writing history , that wouldn't
solve anything.




_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#47680 - 01/18/13 05:05 AM Re: Mass & Velocity [Re: paul]
Orac Offline
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Serious question serious answer yes there can be one way interactions and they form fundemental laws and boundaries for even QM.

More commonly you encounter "normal" or classic physics boundaries and these can be got around using clever QM setups.

QM defines 4 fundemental forces 3 considered proven one theoretical being gravity

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/forces/funfor.html

Why do fundemntal forces exist ... no idea .. chance or god take your pick. You can not reverse a fundemental force at least QM contains no way to do it unless you are god. There are unproven things like string theory that allow reversals of these fundemental forces but there is not a single shred of scientific experimental evidence you can.

It is why even QM can't make a ball roll uphill against gravity unless it could use at least one of the other fundemental forces to overpower gravity.

There is a rather funny QM science joke which you might appreciate and it goes like this:

Originally Posted By: QM joke


GOD looks down at man misbehaving on earth and decides he must do something to stop such bad behaviour and goes down to talk to scientist.

GOD: “Scientist, I have decided to punish wicked men you will do my bidding and drown the sinners"

SCIENTIST: “GOD I am sorry but there is not enough water on the earth and it is to mountainous to drown the entire planet it can't be done"

GOD: "Boy you really are thick and learnt nothing, I guess I’ll have to summarize it for you. Simply project a gauge boson enhancer wave at the planet’s surface. It strengthens the electromagnetic force that attracts electrons to protons.”

SCIENTIST: “So?”

GOD: “So…, the electrons are pulled closer to the nucleus, and the atoms become smaller by approximately one percent. Then gravity causes the planet’s mantel to compress.”

SCIENTIST: “Excuse me, GOD, but how does making the planet smaller by one percent kill all the inhabitants?”

GOD: “You don’t shrink the entire planet, you idiot. You shrink the mantle under one of the continents. When it collapses toward the core, the oceans flood the land and everybody drowns.”

SCIENTIST: “But if the land is under water, how can we…”

GOD: “You really are stupid, are you mocking me, because nobody can be that stupid? You reverse the polarity of the gauge boson wave and the land enlarges and displaces the water. Now, can you handle that you silly little scientist?”

SCIENTIST: "How long should I give it ... "

GOD: “About 40 nights should do it ....."

GOD: "Man you scientists really are thick aren't you"



Enjoy !!!!! smile


Edited by Orac (01/18/13 08:15 AM)
_________________________
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#47681 - 01/18/13 04:46 PM Re: Mass & Velocity [Re: paul]
Bill S. Offline
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Registered: 08/20/10
Posts: 3570
Loc: Essex, UK
Quote:
or maybe its like this.
the photon velocity impacts with the mirror velocity
traveling in the opposite direction so
the photon bounces off at a higher velocity
the glass slow's the super fast photon down
and the result is light from the heat.


Surely the motion of the mirror makes no difference to the speed at which the photons impact the mirror.
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There never was nothing.

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#47682 - 01/18/13 05:02 PM Re: Mass & Velocity [Re: Bill]
Bill S. Offline
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Registered: 08/20/10
Posts: 3570
Loc: Essex, UK
Originally Posted By: Bill
English really is a kind of a rag bag of words from every place.


I guess that one man's rag bag is another man's cornucopia.

BTW. Did you realise that the US spelling of words such as color is, in fact, the original English spelling which went across the Atlantic before some idiot over here decided that it would be cool to be more like the French. Then Napoleon came along, and it was too late to change back.

I fail to see what any of that has to do with mass or velocity, unless it could be considered a massive thread drift with speed and direction. smile
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There never was nothing.

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#47683 - 01/18/13 05:42 PM Re: Mass & Velocity [Re: Orac]
Bill S. Offline
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Quote:
It is wrong for me to ascribe particular values to observables if I don't know their values. It is wrong for me to ascribe particular truth values to propositions whose answers are unknown to me. That's why another observer's act of ascribing a value to N just makes no impact on my knowledge – only if I learn about N myself, it influences my predictions!


Given that a quantum system is in a state of superposition of all possible states until it is observed; is Motl saying that if one observer observes the system it resolves itself into a specific state only for that observer?
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There never was nothing.

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#47684 - 01/18/13 06:37 PM Re: Mass & Velocity [Re: Amaranth Rose II]
Bill S. Offline
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Registered: 08/20/10
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Rose, your defense of "as much of..." on the grounds of common usage, and indeed grammatical correctness is not in dispute.

However, there is a vast difference between "as much of..." and "as great of..."; at least there is on this side of the Atlantic.

Try omitting the "of" from both examples:

As great a genius as Einstein was....

As much a pain as my oldest brother was....

The second one needs the "of" to be acceptable in modern English. The first certainly does not.
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#47685 - 01/18/13 07:09 PM Re: Mass & Velocity [Re: Bill S.]
paul Offline
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Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
Quote:
Surely the motion of the mirror makes no difference to the speed at which the photons impact the mirror.


if your driving your car on the highway at 100 mph
and there is a car in front of you driving at 99 mph

you would collide with the car in front of you and the
impact could be calculated at 1 mph , not much damage to
either car.

if your driving your car on the highway at 100 mph
and there is a car in front of you driving towards you
at 99 mph.

you would collide with the car in front of you and the
impact could be calculated at 199 mph , severe damage to
both car's.

so the mirror is vibrating at 5% the speed of light
which is 9300 miles / second

the photon is traveling at the speed of light.

impact = 186,000 mps + 9300 mps

the impact causes the photon to travel 9300 miles / second above the speed of light through the glass of the mirror.

the glass slows the photon down.
and heat is generated.

have they measured the exit speed of the photons / sparks as
they are leaving the mirror?

note: any reference to breaking of the speed of light laws
and I will not reply.

I don't consider those types of limits as unbreakable.


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3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#47686 - 01/18/13 07:48 PM Re: Mass & Velocity [Re: paul]
Bill S. Offline
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Posts: 3570
Loc: Essex, UK
Sorry, Paul, I had momentarily forgotten that you do not accept the constancy of the speed of light.
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There never was nothing.

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#47687 - 01/18/13 08:01 PM Re: Mass & Velocity [Re: paul]
Bill Offline
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Registered: 12/31/10
Posts: 1858
Loc: Oklahoma, USA
Originally Posted By: Paul
if your driving your car on the highway at 100 mph
and there is a car in front of you driving at 99 mph

you would collide with the car in front of you and the
impact could be calculated at 1 mph , not much damage to
either car.

if your driving your car on the highway at 100 mph
and there is a car in front of you driving towards you
at 99 mph.

you would collide with the car in front of you and the
impact could be calculated at 199 mph , severe damage to
both car's.

so the mirror is vibrating at 5% the speed of light
which is 9300 miles / second

the photon is traveling at the speed of light.

impact = 186,000 mps + 9300 mps

Paul, once again you are ignoring the fact that the universal speed limit is the speed of light, approximate 186,000 mps. With respect to the mirror the light cannot travel any faster than that. You can't seem to get it straight that any time that light hits ANY object it does it at 186,000 mps. There are no exceptions, well except possibly some subtle QM effects.

OOPs I didn't pay close enough attention to Paul's post where he says he doesn't believe in Special Relativity. That imposes some severe penalties on his understanding of science, since the theory of Special Relativity has been so thoroughly tested that there is no doubt that it is real. I'm not quite sure how he expects to understand modern science when he refuses to believe in one of the fundamental laws that makes it work.

Bill Gill


Edited by Bill (01/18/13 08:06 PM)
_________________________
C is not the speed of light in a vacuum.
C is the universal speed limit.

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#47689 - 01/18/13 10:50 PM Re: Mass & Velocity [Re: Bill]
paul Offline
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Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
Quote:
You can't seem to get it straight that any time that light hits ANY object it does it at 186,000 mps.


then why did I say the following, Bill Gill?

Quote:
the photon is traveling at the speed of light.

impact = 186,000 mps + 9300 mps


If your going to make a reply to a post you should at least
read the post you are replying to , and comprehend it as you read it.

that said I'm not carrying out yet another argument with
a bunch of in the box by the book non thinkers.

I suppose that those who still think that light can only travel at 186,000 mps can explain why the sparks were emitted
by the mirror.

remember , if light can only travel at 186,000 mps then
there would have been no sparks , in fact there would have been no result at all , other than the same result of light hitting a motionless mirror.

Quote:
The team fashioned a superconducting circuit in which the SQUID effectively acted as a mirror. Passing a magnetic field through the SQUID moved the mirror slightly, and switching the direction of magnetic field several billion times per second caused it to 'wiggle' at around 5% the speed of light, a speed great enough to see the effect.

The result was a shower of microwave photons shaken loose from the vacuum, the team claims.


lets see , the squid vibrated at only 5% c and microwave photons showered out of the vacuum.

a few questions for orac.

so were these showered photons already there or did QM create them on the fly?

the article says that a (non existant) virtual photon was
converted into a real photon.

is that what really happened or is that just the way QM tells it?

what are the virtual properties that a virtual photon has?

does a virtual photon supposedly travel at the speed of light
or should I say the speed of virtual light?

what is the speed of virtual light if there is such a thing?

you don't really need to answer these things orac , I dont
think I want to spend any real time discussing along a virtual path.

it just goes against my grain , and I think that its all
pure classical anyway they just have't figured it out yet.








_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#47691 - 01/18/13 11:34 PM Re: Mass & Velocity [Re: paul]
Bill Offline
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Registered: 12/31/10
Posts: 1858
Loc: Oklahoma, USA
Gentle readers. At this point it is obviously impossible to carry on a discussion with Paul, since he denies the facts of science. There is no possible discussion on this matter. Therefore I will just say very simply.


PAUL IS WRONG.

I will no longer try to correct Paul, I will just point out his errors so you will realize

PAUL IS WRONG.

Bill Gill
_________________________
C is not the speed of light in a vacuum.
C is the universal speed limit.

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#47692 - 01/18/13 11:46 PM Re: Mass & Velocity [Re: Bill]
paul Offline
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Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
good bill !

I dont think anyone really cares anyway.

I know I don't.

so simply stop replying to my post.

and make another one of your own thread's
that no one even cares about.
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3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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