Science a GoGo's Home Page Forums General Discussion Not-Quite-Science Forum Magnetism & Gravity

Can I examine the machine personally in detail? That includes the table it is sitting on.

Bill Gill

Entertaining, but useless.

I find it hard to lend credibility to a guy who has another video of the Boyle flask, that has wires coming out of the back.

Perpetual motion and free energy are myths manno. Even if it ran for 1000 years, it's still not perpetual.

Metal corrodes and wears down, magnets lose magnetism.

I would think, the only possible things that could be remotely considered perpetual, are things without tangible, measurable, factors.

Like thought, stupidity, consciousness, some gods. But even so, that just gets into philosophy. Does anything exist if there is nothing to perceive it?

If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is around, does Paul call it perpetual motion?

Questions for the ages.

if this wheel is not battery powered , it clearly shows free energy.

perpetual motion would be something impossible to attain , such as the earth rotating around the sun , or the moon rotating around the earth , etc..

eventually they will not do that.

but as far as we are concerned they are in perpetual motion.

but don't you believe in evolution?

and wouldn't evolution fall under the category of things you listed below?



evolution exist to the evolutionist cults in science and it
has no thing that is there to be percieved that shows evolution , therefore why can't you believe in thing's that
you actually see?

when you so freely believe in things that you cannot see.

you would need to ask the guy who own's the machine.

its not his idea however it was patented back in the early 1800's according to the video.

I can see how it works , its really easy to see that.

if you are blinded by laws then your mind will reject it and
you will never be capable of comprehending the way it works.

its clear that the magnet is pulling on the ball.
the ball must roll upwards along the track to get to the magnet.
the ball is placing friction against the wheel as it rolls up
the track.

and this causes the wheel to turn.

but Bill , don't concern yourself trying to
figure it out its wayyy tooooo much harder to think about than
special relativity n such.

I asked about personally examining the machine because it has been know for people to build fake perpetual motion machines. I have read of one where a man built a machine that really worked. Nobody could figure out how it worked until they disassembled the whole setup and found the air tubes in the table legs. So before I would believe in a perpetual motion machine I would have to be able to examine it in detail. That would include complete disassembly if the way it is powered doesn't show up on a quick exam.

Bill Gill

I agree there are a lot of fake perpetual motion machines
on the internet , and I would need to really study one before
I would claim that it works.

but this one really looks like it could work to me.

I'm not claiming that it really does work.

I just thought it would make a nice conversation piece.

I have placed this item in the "Not quite Science" section.
(I should have placed it in the Science Fiction category.
its certainly not science)

Its easy to see why the whole idea is phoney.
A/Place the magnet as close to the metal ball as possible,
without touching the wheel.
B/ In this position the (aluminium) wheel is gripped firmly by
the magnetic flux in-between the ball and magnet.
It will be difficult to turn the wheel by hand, due to the outward pressure of the ball (friction)on the wheel.
C/The experimenter cleverly pulls the magnet away from the
ball, just enough for it to be gently attracted in the magnets direction, and gives the wheel a quick turn by hand.
You will notice the experimenter stops the wheel as soon as its
initial inertia dies down and the wheel would be noticed to slow. QED.

P.S
There has been no category for 'Perpetual Motion' in the Euro-
Patent Office, for some years now.
Though I believe Perpetual Motion can still be patented in the USA

are you saying that the aluminum wheel will resist movement
because of the magnetic field that the magnet causes?

how does that happen to a non ferrous material such as
aluminum , mike?

if your going to move threads away from the general science forum you should have a valid reason other than any personal
discrimination that you might have.

also:



if you watched the video you can clearly see that at 1:28 into
the video he uses only the magnet to start the wheel turning
as his other hand is in the video on the table.



to be honest and fair not to mention scientific about it , I would think that you should put the thread back in the general science forum.

unless you can provide some evidence other than what
you have provided.

aluminum frame electric motors , they must work because
they sell aluminum frame electric motors everywhere , maybe they just didn't realize that the magnetic flux would keep
the aluminum frame motors from turning because of the grip
that the magnetic flux has on the aluminum.

https://www.google.com/#q=aluminum+frame...066&bih=514

moving this thread to the NQS forum does show what scientist
are all about these days however , let it stay here to show
the readers how to sweep things under the science rug when
they happen across something that they cannot comprehend.

stupid smart people

I once saw the most efficient ever car designed it had frictionless wheels and an aerodynamics so it felt no wind resistance at all so once moving it ran without energy for miles.

The designers assured me it would be on the market as the first zero energy car as soon as they could work out how to stop the wheels spinning and get it to move.

I do not know if the wheel is aluminium or not Paul, it does not say.
But trying to con people that a steel ball is trying to climb up the inside of a wheel, with the help of a magnet, the climb keeping the wheel turning after a convenient push....is the
usual 'Perpetual Motion' con.

As it happens...try to spin an aluminium disk, with a horseshoe
magnet across its edge face. It wont spin will it?
Or try to get a small aluminium pendelum to swing across the internal face of a horseshoe magnet. It wont will it?

well mike, I believe you have found the reason it wont work!

all you need to do is make up stupid idiotic imaginary reasons
why it wont work , and then in your mind it wont work.

just like the stupid idiotic imaginary reasons you make up to make yourselves believe that evolution is science.

like forest gump says , stupid is, stupid does.

believe it or not mike , a steel/iron ball will roll up a hill under the influence of a magnet.

and believe it or not mike, a non ferrous wheel will turn under
the influence of a steel/iron ball rolling inside it like the one in the video.

your just too blinded by your intelligence to comprehend it.
so you deny it.

with no valid reason.

I'm even going to go as far as to say that you consider your
actions to be scientific , because that is the scientific way
that science works these days.

science has become a pool of lies and deceit.
because science teaches lies and deceit , its like what
comes around, goes around and stupid is , stupid does.

I'm probably going to be sorry that I got into this.


The device as shown will not work. There is no source to provide a torque to turn anything in the system. Therefore there is no energy exchange to make the wheel turn. As I said before I would have to be able to personally examine the whole set up to find what is making it turn. It is not some kind of magic, which is what perpetual motion/free energy devices are.

Bill Gill

then you don't know what torque is , bill.

from what I understand about torque , the torque that causes
the wheel to turn is placed on the wheel by the ball.

do you want to completely dismiss gravity and claim something silly like the magnet is providing the only force that supports the ball , thus the ball really does not cause
friction to be placed on the wheel.

LOL

you find it so easy to place faith in all the fantasy of
science but when it comes down to real physics or should I
say real science you become lost and your logic dissipates because you have been told it wouldn't work all your life , and you blindly accepted it.

Yes there are forces acting on the ball and on the wheel. The specific forces to be looked at are gravitic, pointing straight down and magnetic, pointing at the end of the magnet. There is also a centripetal force pointed at the center of the wheel. This force is provided by the wheel itself, which stops the ball from moving more than the radius of the wheel from the center.

If you do a vector analysis of the 2 primary forces you will find that they sum up to provide a force directly opposite the centripetal force and equal in magnitude. Thus the net force on the ball is zero, so there is no movement. This of course is after friction has reduced the oscillation of the ball around its final position to 0.

So once again gentle readers Paul is making unsupported claims concerning the magic act that the person who made the video is performing. The thing about all of the claimed perpetual motion devices is that they are basically the same thing that stage magicians do.

Bill Gill

I have heard this type of load before , but with the
evidence shown in the video you don't seem to have
much of a load except in your pants, that are on fire , Bill

to be plain and simple that is a load of crap if I have ever heard one.

a vector analysis ...

LOL





yea you should really try that one Bill.

I didn't think you knew what you were talking about , but now I'm certain beyond a shadow of a doubt that you really don't know what you are talking about.

or your simply protecting a part of the science cult.

if you think that because the 2 primary forces will add up to the centripetal force provided by the wheel and that will stop
the wheel from turning , then there never would have been a wheel that would have ever turned , LOL...

because the centripetal forces always add up to the centrifugal forces ( the outward force ) and when they
don't add up ( if centrifugal is higher than centripetal ), then something is going to break.

that's the reason we study centripetal ( inward force ) and
centrifugal ( outward ) forces.

so we will be able to determine if a mechanism can withstand
the forces in rotation.

BTW , I already know that science claims that
centrifugal force is a pseudo force.

but science uses centrifuges everyday.

I hope your not going to stoop to using that in your next load of crap...

Paul must every post be about you moaning and crying about science beating up your creation and god.

No wonder the romans crucify christian fundementalists and stick you on a hill and the islamic jihadist want to blow you up because they just want to get some peace and quiet.

Personally I am hoping the second coming gets here soon so the moaning and whining will stop.

Well, gentle readers, you see how it is. I explain that as far as I can see there is no force to cause the wheel to rotate. Then Paul doesn't bother to find a force that will cause it to rotate because of course that is hard to do. Instead he attacks scientists in general because we keep insisting that all things work according to the laws of nature, instead of bowing to his great wisdom. Unfortunately if we want to make things that actually work we do have to work within those laws. We never have been able to get things to work when we ignore natural law. I think Paul's diatribes would be more effective it he didn't just lash out and claim we are all liars. A bit of proof would work much better.

I see I have written that as if I was a scientist. I'm not really but I kind of classify myself in the same general group. That is people who like to know how things really work.

Bill Gill

I missed that explanation there Bill.

or did you mean that you stated that as far as you could see...




nope no explanation there...only statements or claims.



nope no explanation there either , just statements and then the
part about the centripetal force , bla , bla , ...

which has absolutely nothing to do with the ball moving along the track.

I guess you put that in because you wanted to miss guide your gentle readers because it allows you to say it stops the ball.




ROFLMAO

its really lame of you to try and use the centrifugal force as
a reason that the ball would not move around the track.

do you even know what centripetal force is?

if so why would you somehow imagine that a vector analysis of
the centripetal force and the prime forces would show that
the ball would not move around the track?

I want to hear this one , I could use another laugh.
your post always brighten up my day , but they make it hard to
drink a hot cup of coffee.

Gentle and Gentile sheeple

notice how scientist use an incorrect application of physics
to confuse and miss guide the masses into believing that things are not possible.

here Bill , who thinks of himself as someone like a scientist
is using centripetal force to try and show the masses that
this machine would not work.

the centripetal force applies only to the inward force acting on the ball.
the ball moving along the track would not exhibit any inward motion , the ball would not be trying to move to the center of
the wheel.

the ball cannot move further away from the center of the wheel
because the ball is sitting on the track which prevents it from
moving further away from the center of the wheel.

his erroneous use of centripetal force is a extreme attempt
at miss guiding the masses.

something that science regularly displays to show just how dense science really has become in order to protect their science religion.

Should be reasonably easy to settle the issue. Who's going to build the thing and put it to the test?

disturbing thought!

What if Paul makes one that works, and Bill makes one that doesn't?

I guess that gives Orac the chance to say that according to QM, it's all down to the observer/creator.

Then once again I will have to see it torn down in a public forum and checked carefully to find the gimmick that appears to make Paul's work.

Oh, and in Paul's rambling reply I still didn't see him provide a source for the force that is supposed to make the wheel turn. The only thing remotely like such a force is a vague reference to centrifugal force, which only applies inside a rotating frame of reference. In the part of the video that shows it starting from rest it isn't rotating at first, and therefore centrifugal force is not a factor.

From outside the rotating frame centrifugal force is a consequence of Newton's first law, and is not a real force.

Bill Gill

I think Bill should build it just to prove to himself and
his gentle readers that he was right.

it really was the centripetal force that causes it to not work
because the ball cant move inward or outward so it just says
frikit i'm not moving at all, LOL

but nobody even mentioned the coriolis effect!

or the earths magnetic field!

you guys are slacking off.

I always disassemble things in public forums before I believe
that they actually work also , Bill.

gravity

gravity pull ball down because magnet not hold ball.

ball push against wheel , wheel turn.

magnet pull ball back up.

gravity pull ball down because magnet not hold ball.

ball push against wheel , wheel turn.

magnet pull ball back up.

gravity pull ball down because magnet not hold ball.

ball push against wheel , wheel turn.

magnet pull ball back up.

gravity pull ball down because magnet not hold ball.

ball push against wheel , wheel turn.

magnet pull ball back up.

etc...etc...etc x 10^infinity until it break.

nope , its not centrifugal force bill.

so far we have covered eddy currents , which could in fact
push the ball down providing an assist to the force of gravity.

and we've covered centripetal force and centrifugal force that
have nothing to do with the wheel rotating.

if your not going to use the coriolis effect or the earths
magnetic field then the only thing left is the room , what if
the entire room is spinning around with the camera and the guy
in the video causing the wheel to appear to turn around.

you guys.

If the magnet doesn't hold the ball, then how does it pull the ball back up? Also when the magnet pulls the ball up the wheel should turn in the other direction.

You seem to have a variable strength magnet. How do you do that, use and electromagnet with a variable current applied? Anyway I didn't see the ball moving up and down in the video.

See gentle readers? Paul can't even come up with an answer that is consistent within 3 lines.

Bill Gill

Well, eddy currents could do it if you had an electromagnet under the table that was driving the wheel like an electric motor.

Bill Gill

huh?
why would the wheel go the other way?
oh , I think I know what your trying to explain.
the much heavier wheel that has momentum in a direction
should be attracted by the magnet because its made of a
non ferrous material that magnets do not attract.
or
the ball should stop the much heavier wheel that has
momentum in a direction because the ball should reverse its
spin direction for some reason and this reversal of ball spin
direction causes the massive flywheel to stop and then spin in the opposite direction.

am I close?



Bill , get with it man.

the ball is accelerated by the magnet , the ball then crosses
over the strongest part of the fields that are attracting the ball , the ball crosses this strong field due to ball momentum then the ball is pulled back down by gravity and the magnet.

as the ball is being pulled back down by the magnet and gravity and pressurized air between the bar and the ball
the ball gains momentum , most likely more than
it had going up.

the ball presses downwards on the wheel as it goes up and goes down.

because the ball is spinning and placing friction on the wheel.

the friction causes the wheel to spin in a direction.

the magnet is still attracting the ball and the ball is still trying to go down even further but the constant pull of
the magnet and the spin of the ball against the wheel
causes the ball to roll up again.



watch the video again Bill , it may be that your brain has
blocked that part out to protect you from what it knows that you know is not possible because of the deeply rooted 3 commandments of newton in your science cult religion.

try looking at apx 1:30 into it.

the ball is clearly moving up and down.

unless your being pickey about it , in which case it really
isn't going straight up or straight down it travel's along
the arc of the wheel's tracks up and down.

from what I can see with my non science religious cult eyes the ball never stop's going up or down along the arc of the track.

Well gentle readers, I think I have sufficiently shown that Paul really doesn't have any idea how Newton's laws work. He keeps falling back on the idea that anybody who doesn't believe what he says is a liar. So I think I have done about all I can do in this thread. He is starting to thresh and I don't need to watch that.

So I will see you all in another thread.

Bill Gill

Lets make it simple for you Paul
If the ball does'nt turn...then the wheel dos'nt turn

The only rolling or turning the ball does is......Initially
its attracted (or rolls uphill towards the magnet).
Once it gets as close to the magnet as it is allowed.....it stops.....and stops for good, unless the magnet is pulled away
Then the ball rolls (falls) down to the bottom of the wheel.
Finito...end of story, wheel does not turn.

I guess the 1/2 inch ball would have to turn at least 80+ turns for one turn of the wheel, thats very fast....How is the ball going to do that, stuck up close to the magnet??

Oh dear Paul you really did get sucked in

Go to the site in the youtube video ....

http://www.veproject1.org/

http://www.veproject1.org/vepprograms.htm




So here is your big chance are you ready to admit you are wrong?

wow someone finally found out why it wont work!

you should have waited a few more days orac , I was getting a
kick out of all the reasons why it wouldn't work.

and they were all wrong.

you other guys need to learn to explore the web pages that
are connected to these videos.

here was the closest possible correct reason.



and my counter



Eddy currents , LOL
centripetal force , LOL

I tried to get them to suggest the coriolis effect and the
earth's magnetic field , or even the entire room spinning.

but I guess even they couldn't wrap their brains around those.

but it was fun , to say the least.

mind you I still believe that free energy is possible.

but as far as perpetual motion is concerned , well perpetual
means it would have to run for eternity , and all machines break.

How are they stupid THEY correctly told you it wouldn't work and knew it was a fake.

So either you were a stupid religious type that believes any crap be it in bible or on the net or you were trolling ... take your pick????

Either answer makes you the stupid one.

this has got to be the one that I liked most of all...



and as I mentioned much earlier on page 1




they really do make nice conservation pieces and they seem
to be able to get peoples minds out of the fantasy realm and
back into the real world , I can see how a teacher could use
these as tools to present their students with problems that
need to be solved.

look at the thought that was generated in this thread , albeit
erroneous , thought still.

Item 2 of Top 3 Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian


2 - While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot anonymous posting of crap on the internet may be all the evidence you need to "prove" your religion.

I found your picture , Orac
are you really a computer?
that would explain why you found the reason why it wouldn't
work.

it says your circuits are fried , is that true?
perhaps that's why you post the things you do.

should I care what you post?
let me let you in on a little secret , I dont!
so post away , and have fun.






http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2008/11/20/the-100th-meeting-of-the-skeptics-circle/

The more you post the more I realise you really were stupid enough to believe the video and are now covering it up to try and act like you were trolling.

You poor gullible person ..... makes one think about your religious beliefs really .... hmmmmmm.

Shall I troll on and show you how you really do it?

Mind you you have coped a flogging here so queue TT or FF to come to the rescue any moment.

yes , show me.



rescue from what ?
just to be on the safe side , I have sent emergency PM's
to TT FF and all the gang.

Fine .... this is NQS so lets start shall we talk about the book your religion is trying to steal from the jews and add your own take on what it says.

I mean is your religion so poor it can't afford it's own book or did you lose it like bad children?

The islamic have the Quran
The jews have the Torah
The buddists have 3 the Sutra Pitaka, Vinaya Pitaka and the Abhidhamma Pitaka
The later day saints have their gold tablets
The modern liberal christians have the new testament

And you fundementalist christians have what rehashed and stolen pieces that makes up the old testament and you are basing a religion on it ????

Now thats how you troll.

I have no real issue with you Paul but if you want to simply post garbage and troll the forum expect to get cut up in this cross fire.

No , this is how you troll.

troll troll troll
troll lo lol lolll
troll troll troll troll trol lo lol lool

and the scientist have the 3 commandments of newton.

he almost achieved making the Philosopher's stone

whatever that was , or did he make it?

lets see newton's occult studies !
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Newton%27s_occult_studies

I'm not going to say he was a wacko , but by the way you
talk about religion you certainly would consider him to be a wacko.



I think that newton was a very smart smart person.

but your type would claim he was not , in fact you would
make all types of critical judgments against him because
you think your so smart , I guess your mirror tells you that.

See thats not a troll because science does consider Newton a whacko he was a religious fruitloop who thought gravity was gods work.

See a good troll is like mine above because your silence gives two possibilities that your religion is a pile of made up junk or that you are so nervous about going there that you have to try and ignore it ... it just hangs there like the proverbial elephant in the room plain for everyone to see.

Anyhow I have to shuffle along it has been fun trolling you but I have things to do.

would that elephant happen to be pink?

I have heard that people who consume large volumes of alcohol
sometimes see pink elephants in their room , that is why I asked.

if the elephant that you see in your room is not pink then
what color is it?

so your a drunk?

that explains some of the rants you make about religion.

you shouldn't drink your brain cell's away like that , Orac.

but has science proven him to be wrong?

or has the science cult religion simply drawn a few pictures
and added some scientific sounding descriptive text claiming him to have been wrong?

stupid smart people really tick me off.

See now your having to try to deflect and sidetrack the discussion because you dare not go near the original comment.

Not a tactic that will work with me.

See that is what makes a truely great troll when the other person can't go near it for fear of what comes next and has to try numerous strategies to get away from the subject.

See your avoidance and squirming just makes the troll even better

geez , orac you really can predict the future , how did you
know that it's like you can predict what your going to say before you say it.

are you a student of the occult?

do you have a philosopher's stone?

is that a new subject in the science cult religion?

how do you do that?

anyway although your answer will be greatly anticipated
I must leave for now.

I will check in to read the important information that you will deposit tomorrow.

You really don't understand 'free' energy at all. You're getting lost in semantics every time it's mentioned. Read and learn buddy, it keeps the foot out of the mouth.

And really, do you bust out the evolution talk every single time you can't crawl out of the hole you dug for yourself? I mean, you derail your own threads with that crap. Cut it out.

With this thread being a "I knew it was fake the whole time, I just wanted you guys to say so", it's hard not to resort to name calling, and telling on each other. Next thing I know, you're gonna start telling us your dad can beat up our dad's.

You ever think of running for politics? You'd be a big hit.

(Also; your, you're, there, their, they're... You should check out all these words. Easier to sell a crackpot idea, if you at least write in a manner beyond the third grade. Just saying.)

but what were you trying to say?

ay?

if you want to be a butt wipe like orac and others I really
can't do anything about that , so butt wipe , what is it
about free energy that I dont understand?

It's spelled 'eh'.

that may be how you hosers spell it.
I spell it ay.

I started this thread on the 11th , it was only debunked last night by orac , this is the 14th.

why did it take all of you geniuses so long to find the reason
it wouldn't work?

I made my point , and that point is that all you geniuses
that know everything really don't know everything like you think you do.

#47499 - Fri Jan 11 2013 02:46 PM Re: Magnetism & Gravity

Seems to me it was only a few hours before it was debunked.

I guess, one could say it was debunked hundreds of years prior to you posting that, but whatever, splitting hairs eh? (See what I did there?)

I actually laughed out loud on this one too. Told you it was hard to not resort to name calling.

I think it's the free energy part you don't understand about free energy.

and I gave you credit also.

#47544



don't go getting the big head , unless you were just letting it ride.
in which case you had your laughs also...

I still think orac should have waited a little longer to
see what else could have been extracted.

now just a minute there hoser , what part about the free energy part of free energy is it that you think I don't understand?

But you didn't see what I did there. Damnit. Oh well, best laid plans and all that.

dammit , you misspail dit