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#47305 - 01/03/13 11:23 PM Re: Creationists and People [Re: Mike Kremer]
Bill S. Offline
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Registered: 08/20/10
Posts: 3570
Loc: Essex, UK
Seems quite a balanced view - for an athiest. smile

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/collid...n/#.UOYCQHf9Gtw

" What we don’t seem to know (or be capable of) is how to debate these issues without biting each other’s heads off."
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#47313 - 01/04/13 03:11 AM Re: Creationists and People [Re: Bill S.]
Bill Offline
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Registered: 12/31/10
Posts: 1858
Loc: Oklahoma, USA
I looked through your link and now I have to say something if I can just figure out how. I think that a lot of people see a war between science and religion because they feel that their beliefs are threatened. Almost all of us like to believe that we know and understand how the world works. When we are told that it isn't really that way we can get very upset.

Partly I think this is an evolutionary response to the way we lived a very long time ago. When you are living from day to day and pretty much hand to mouth you need to be sure that you know what to do in any situation, and how to handle unusual situations. If we are put in a situation where what we know to do and our usual methods of handling unusual situations don't work we can be in a world of hurt. We needed to be able to react almost instinctively to any situation. So there was a large component of conservatism built into us. Any thing that tried to change how we did things could be dangerous, since we couldn't be sure that the new way would work as well as the old way. So we evolved to be conservative.

But of course there are times when we absolutely have to change our ways, so we have also always had some people who were ready to try new things just because they were there to be tried. The 2 viewpoints of course can produce some major clashes between the stick-in-the-mud and the try-anything members of society.

Then of course there are a lot of people who are in the middle. They will go along with whichever method seems to be working at that time. They don't really get too involved in the arguments between the 2 extremes.

And of course there are those at one extreme or the other who keep thinking that they should be able to convert the ones at the opposite extreme if they can just talk to them. I really wondered last week when I was scanning across the channels on my TV and found Fox's Bill O'Reilly in a discussion with Richard Dawkins. As far as I can see Dawkins cannot expect anything like a warm reception from O'Reilly. I don't think that when he is on O'Reilly's show he can expect to make any kind of a decent showing.

Bill Gill
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C is not the speed of light in a vacuum.
C is the universal speed limit.

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#47316 - 01/04/13 04:57 AM Re: Creationists and People [Re: Mike Kremer]
Ellis Offline
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Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
Discussion with a person with a closed mind is impossible and leads to argument. It is possible to agree to differ, and still enjoy a stimulating, and courteous exchange of ideas---- but good luck trying that sometimes!

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#47317 - 01/04/13 02:04 PM Re: Creationists and People [Re: Bill]
Bill S. Offline
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Registered: 08/20/10
Posts: 3570
Loc: Essex, UK
I think you summed the situation up very well, Bill. Obviously there are those who would say that you are describing adaptation to circumstances rather than evolution, but that's probably just semantics.

I have admired Dawkins as a scientist since I met "The Selfish Gene" 30 years ago. Unfortunately, I think he got himself too bogged down in the atheistic stuff and has lost his focus a bit.
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#47328 - 01/05/13 12:00 AM Re: Creationists and People [Re: Bill]
paul Offline
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Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4135
Quote:
When we are told that it isn't really that way we can get very upset.


because we know better.
to rephrase your comment.

this is how I interpret your comment using critical thinking.

When we are told a bunch of bullshit lies we can get very upset.
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3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#47365 - 01/06/13 04:14 AM Re: Creationists and People [Re: paul]
Orac Offline
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Registered: 05/20/11
Posts: 2819
Loc: Currently Illinois, USA
Originally Posted By: Stephen J Gould

As in 1925, creationists are not battling for religion. They have been disowned by leading church men of all persuasions, for they debase religion even more than they misconstrue science. They are a motley collection to be sure, but their core of practical support lies with the evangelical right, and creationism is a mere stalking horse or subsidiary issue in a political program...The enemy is not fundamentalism; it is intolerance.


Edited by Orac (01/06/13 04:15 AM)
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#47366 - 01/06/13 04:20 AM Re: Creationists and People [Re: Orac]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Registered: 06/19/08
Posts: 1249
Loc: Everywhere and nowhere
Originally Posted By: Orac
Originally Posted By: Stephen J Gould

As in 1925, creationists are not battling for religion. They have been disowned by leading church men of all persuasions, for they debase religion even more than they misconstrue science. They are a motley collection to be sure, but their core of practical support lies with the evangelical right, and creationism is a mere stalking horse or subsidiary issue in a political program...The enemy is not fundamentalism; it is intolerance.
Beware of Stephen J. Gould
17 Post author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 06 November 2007 05:22AM

Followup to: Natural Selection's Speed Limit and Complexity Bound

If you've read anything Stephen J. Gould has ever said about evolutionary biology, I have some bad news for you. In the field of evolutionary biology at large, Gould's reputation is mud. Not because he was wrong. Many honest scientists have made honest mistakes. What Gould did was much worse, involving deliberate misrepresentation of science....
http://lesswrong.com/lw/kv/beware_of_stephen_j_gould/

Intelligent Design Has Scientific Merit in Paleontology
http://www.opposingviews.com/arguments/intelligent-design-has-scientific-merit-in-paleontology

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#47367 - 01/06/13 04:38 AM Re: Creationists and People [Re: Tutor Turtle]
Orac Offline
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Registered: 05/20/11
Posts: 2819
Loc: Currently Illinois, USA
I have issues with Hawkings and Dawkins along similar lines in that there anti-god stances says alot more about them than what science says.

Read what Hawkings says does that make good science and a solid proof there is no god to you?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2011/may/15/stephen-hawking-interview-there-is-no-heaven
http://articles.cnn.com/2010-09-11/world...neuron-disease?

It is hard because we are not dealing with issue that can easily be tested so many scientists so many wrong things on the subject as do many religious people.

So I would actually sort of agree with you the question is whether it is important to the message?


Edited by Orac (01/06/13 04:46 AM)
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I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.

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#47370 - 01/06/13 05:24 AM Re: Creationists and People [Re: Orac]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Registered: 06/19/08
Posts: 1249
Loc: Everywhere and nowhere
Originally Posted By: Orac
...the question is whether it is important to the message?
What message is important?
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#47372 - 01/06/13 07:22 AM Re: Creationists and People [Re: Tutor Turtle]
Orac Offline
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Registered: 05/20/11
Posts: 2819
Loc: Currently Illinois, USA
To answer in your language whatever message you want or not want from it, it could mean everything or nothing smile


Edited by Orac (01/06/13 10:04 AM)
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I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.

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#47374 - 01/06/13 03:41 PM Re: Creationists and People [Re: Orac]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Registered: 06/19/08
Posts: 1249
Loc: Everywhere and nowhere
Originally Posted By: Orac
To answer in your language whatever message you want or not want from it, it could mean everything or nothing smile
My Language? You presumed to put me in a box regarding spirituality and Brotherly love by your definitions (not mine)... Now you speak my language? smirk

However in response to the language you used..

What is IT that conveys importance to the individual?
Are we speaking of creation and how it is interpreted by People, or the relationship of perceived reality to the ego and its need for definition?

What is so important about where we came from when we don't know where we are, or where we are going?

Seems everyone wants to define how perfect the present unknown moment is by defining the past, so it fits with some kind of relative definition of the current personal measure of what is satisfactory and what isn't.
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#47379 - 01/06/13 06:02 PM Re: Creationists and People [Re: Tutor Turtle]
Mike Kremer Offline

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Registered: 10/16/04
Posts: 1696
Loc: London UK
I like that signature of yours Tutor Turtle.

That-"Talkers are usually more articulate than doers, since talk is their specialty"
Nice one,
however I have recently found a doer, named 'Neil Shubin' who is tending to turn the Creationist World upside down with his discoverys
He is one of the Paleontologists who discovered 'The fish
that walked on its hands', named Tiktaalik.

Tiktaalik lived approximately 375 million years ago, and is representative of the transition between non-tetrapod vertebrates (fish) and and early tetrapods.
Its mixture of primitive fish and derived tetrapod characteristics led one of its discoverers, Neil Shubin, to characterize Tiktaalik as a "fishapod".

The "fins" of Tiktaalik have basic wrist bones and simple rays reminiscent of fingers.
The fin was clearly weight bearing, being attached to a massive shoulder with expanded scapular and coracoid elements and attached to the body armor, large muscular scars on the ventral surface of the humerus, and highly mobile distal joints.
The bones of the fore fins show large muscle facets, suggesting that the fin was both muscular and had the ability to flex like a wrist joint. These wrist-like features would
have helped anchor the creature to the bottom in fast moving current.
Also notable are the spiracles on the top of the head, which suggest the creature had primitive lungs as well as gills.

This would have been useful in shallow water, where higher water temperature would lower oxygen content. This development may have led to the evolution of a more robust ribcage, a key evolutionary trait of land living creatures.
The more robust ribcage of Tiktaalik would have helped support the animal’s body any time it ventured outside a fully aquatic habitat.
Tiktaalik also lacked a characteristic that most fishes have—Bony plates in the gill area that restrict lateral head movement.
This makes Tiktaalik the earliest known fish to have a neck, with the pectoral girdle separate from the skull. This would give the creature more freedom in hunting prey either on land or in the shallows.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiktaalik

Thoughts*****
This is just the sort of transitional finding, supporting
evolution...that should be required reading for Creationists.
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"You will never find a real Human being - Even in a mirror." ....Mike Kremer.



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#47380 - 01/06/13 09:16 PM Re: Creationists and People [Re: Mike Kremer]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4135
thats a croc.

why would you think its a fish?



and how could this be made from the above?



evolution at work.

working hard to present false claims to the gullible sheeple.
_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#47389 - 01/07/13 01:50 AM Re: Creationists and People [Re: Tutor Turtle]
Orac Offline
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Registered: 05/20/11
Posts: 2819
Loc: Currently Illinois, USA
Originally Posted By: Tutor Turtle
My Language? You presumed to put me in a box regarding spirituality and Brotherly love by your definitions (not mine)... Now you speak my language?


Sorry TT you are almost a text book contrarian so there is definitely a box for you

Here => http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/201206/field-guide-the-contrarian

Quote:

Notable Characteristics: Defines the phrase "goes against the grain." Never hesitates to inject a contrary viewpoint, whether at a department meeting or Grandma's Thanksgiving dinner table. Habitual sender of email forwards promoting offbeat philosophies. If you say right, this head-butter goes left.


Noone ever has just a single trait but your contrarian streak is so large it's pretty easy to sum you up and put you in a box including the offbeat philosophies.

Contrarian like all psychology traits is both good and bad so it has no context it is useful and some historic leaders have had the trait.

That must really erk you that you strive so hard to not be defined that we can define you smile

You may also realise why I don't waste my time arguing with you laugh


Edited by Orac (01/07/13 01:54 AM)
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#47392 - 01/07/13 02:42 AM Re: Creationists and People [Re: Orac]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Registered: 06/19/08
Posts: 1249
Loc: Everywhere and nowhere
Originally Posted By: Orac

Sorry TT you are almost a text book contrarian so there is definitely a box for you.

You do like boxes.
Originally Posted By: Orac

Contrarian like all psychology traits is both good and bad so it has no context it is useful and some historic leaders have had the trait.
Psychology is not a science, so I'm suprised you want to use it to make a point.
Originally Posted By: Orac

That must really erk you that you strive so hard to not be defined that we can define you smile

Just because someone thinks the way they do doesn't mean I have to think the same way. You like to presume you have an overwhelming authority in your opinion of yourself and others.
That's kinda funny.. wink
Originally Posted By: Orac

You may also realise why I don't waste my time arguing with you laugh
I notice you avoid answering questions that don't have cut and dried answers.
_________________________
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#47393 - 01/07/13 03:20 AM Re: Creationists and People [Re: Tutor Turtle]
Orac Offline
Megastar

Registered: 05/20/11
Posts: 2819
Loc: Currently Illinois, USA
Originally Posted By: Tutor Turtle

Just because someone thinks the way they do doesn't mean I have to think the same way. You like to presume you have an overwhelming authority in your opinion of yourself and others.
That's kinda funny.. wink


Actually quite the reverse and you know nothing of me if you think that. I only give answers where sound reason, facts and logic dictates one and that may appear to be authoritive I guess to some people.

However I am also easily swayed by sound reasonable argument I have been wrong countless times on this forum and infact my favoured view of the universe was string theory which got all but buried by the discovery of the Higgs.

I make no claims to being infallible perhaps ask Paul how many times he has been wrong for a comparison he has stated it on several occassions smile

Originally Posted By: Tutor Turtle

I notice you avoid answering questions that don't have cut and dried answers.


Correct and that is exactly what I said above and why I may appear authoritive to you I guess.

I don't like enforcing my personal views on anybody it comes from my refugee personal history.

Even above I was having a little humour with you I even took pains to add in it was not a good or bad context just that I could classify and box you which was sort of funny because I know how much you hate that. The other parts of the joke you got yes I like my boxes, yes psychology is not a science but you missed that I deliberately pointed out it was not good or bad because that was not the intent.

On this forum Bill S has to me a great sense of humour and we often take humorous jibes at each other which many miss. I even burnt him at the stake one time and he buried me in infinity :-)

I often thought to ask AR2 to randomly delete or at least hide one or two of preearth threads on conspiracy but he probably wouldn't get the humour in it either.
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I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.

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#47394 - 01/07/13 04:22 AM Re: Creationists and People [Re: paul]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4135


400 million year old fossil found.

still alive!

Quote:
Chimaeras are cartilaginous fish in the order Chimaeriformes, known informally as ghost sharks, ratfish (not to be confused with the rattails), spookfish(not to be confused with the true spookfish of the family Opisthoproctidae), or rabbitfishes (not to be confused with the true rabbitfishes of the familySiganidae). They may be the “oldest and most enigmatic groups of fishes alive today.”At one time a “diverse and abundant” group

(based on the fossil record)

their closest living relatives are sharks, though in evolutionary terms they branched off from sharks nearly 400 million years ago and have remained isolated ever since, typically confined to deep water.



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3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#47396 - 01/07/13 05:47 AM Re: Creationists and People [Re: Orac]
Tutor Turtle Offline
Megastar

Registered: 06/19/08
Posts: 1249
Loc: Everywhere and nowhere
Originally Posted By: Orac
I only give answers where sound reason, facts and logic dictates one and that may appear to be authoritive I guess to some people.

Yes already mentioned that, and you would be the some people I was referencing.
Originally Posted By: Orac

However I am also easily swayed by sound reasonable argument
Sound(s) like....
Originally Posted By: Orac
I have been wrong countless times on this forum.
Yet it doesn't seem to deter you from making statements to whatever thought you give yourself to believe in the moment about me, without getting to know me.

Understand I take no offense. I just like to make a point about following thoughts initiated by feeling rather than direct and substantiated experience.
Originally Posted By: Orac

I make no claims to being infallible..

The flaming of others then, must just be a stress releasing tactic you use deal with the feelings.

Originally Posted By: Tutor Turtle

I notice you avoid answering questions that don't have cut and dried answers.

Originally Posted By: Orac

Correct and that is exactly what I said above and why I may appear authoritive to you I guess.

I didn't say you appear that way to me. Just said you like to take the authoritative approach to rendering judgment on others as you do with yourself. There is a difference.
Originally Posted By: Orac

I don't like enforcing my personal views on anybody it comes from my refugee personal history.

It's difficult to enforce ones ideas upon another unless you are seen as the authority. I imagine your students give you that position regardless of whether you ask for it or not.
Conditioning of humanity by the system don'tcha know.

However I see that even tho you can account for your stressful past it doesn't seem to hinder you from throwing out your personal views/judgments of others.

Nothing wrong with expressing your opinion. What would the world be if everyone decided that freely expressing was verboten? (codependant wink most likely)
Originally Posted By: Orac

Even above I was having a little humour with you I even took pains to add in it was not a good or bad context just that I could classify and box you which was sort of funny because I know how much you hate that. The other parts of the joke you got yes I like my boxes, yes psychology is not a science but you missed that I deliberately pointed out it was not good or bad because that was not the intent.
Didn't miss it. Purposely sidestepped it to create another segue to engage in the precepts of reality.
Originally Posted By: Orac

On this forum Bill S has to me a great sense of humour and we often take humorous jibes at each other which many miss. I even burnt him at the stake one time and he buried me in infinity :-)

I often thought to ask AR2 to randomly delete or at least hide one or two of preearth threads on conspiracy but he probably wouldn't get the humour in it either.

Good humor between friends is always refreshing.

Are we friends now?
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#47397 - 01/07/13 06:09 AM Re: Creationists and People [Re: Tutor Turtle]
Orac Offline
Megastar

Registered: 05/20/11
Posts: 2819
Loc: Currently Illinois, USA
Oh I doubt we will ever be good friends could you ever see it we are like fire and ice or perhaps more like would be rebel versus authority mainstream smile

We may however indeed share some jokes and polite jibes assuming one expects thats what they are.


Edited by Orac (01/07/13 06:19 AM)
_________________________
I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.

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#47400 - 01/07/13 03:27 PM Re: Creationists and People [Re: Orac]
Tutor Turtle Offline
Megastar

Registered: 06/19/08
Posts: 1249
Loc: Everywhere and nowhere
Originally Posted By: Orac
Oh I doubt we will ever be good friends could you ever see it we are like fire and ice or perhaps more like would be rebel versus authority mainstream smile
You representing the icy mainstream authority?
Originally Posted By: Orac

We may however indeed share some jokes and polite jibes assuming one expects thats what they are.
Assuming....
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