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#47081 - 12/27/12 05:17 PM Re: Creationists and People [Re: paul]
Orac Offline
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Registered: 05/20/11
Posts: 2819
Loc: Currently Illinois, USA
The problem you have is the story of genesis fails even for the average 12 year old.

When was the last 950 year old person you saw walking around?
Do you really think you could get all the animals in the world on a small boat?

So literal creation via genesis is falsified as an idea even to a 12 year old or are you going to expand your definition on creation out wider to some god making some beginning?
_________________________
I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.

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#47082 - 12/27/12 05:27 PM Re: Creationists and People [Re: Orac]
paul Offline
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Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
here's the video link again in case anyone missed it.

_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#47083 - 12/27/12 06:29 PM Re: Creationists and People [Re: paul]
Mike Kremer Offline

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Registered: 10/16/04
Posts: 1696
Loc: London UK
Originally Posted By: Mike Kremer
When it comes to the Why, Where, and How life started here on Earth, None of us want to believe in fairy tales, do we?
Every correct honest and science minded person would like to know the truth.


exactly , and further down you say

Quote:
If no transitional Life has been found....it may mean that we hav'nt looked around hard enough.
That does not mean that Creationism has to be correct, or even accepted.


you cant find proof of evolution so you say that because evolution has no proof then Creation must not be correct.
that seem's way out of line to me as a logical thinking person.
Originally Posted By: Mike kremer

Of course I can find proof of evolution, I suggest you re-read my above again

that also does not mean that evolution has to be correct, or even accepted , but it is accepted and taught in schools
as if it were correct , and creation is not taught in schools , although Creation is seen clearly in the fossil record to have
taken place.
Originally Posted By: Mike kremer

Of course Creation is not taught per se in schools, Why teach children unacceptable information? As I stated Creationism is taught in fewer than six schools in the USA, and those are in Tenneesee, I wonder why? Its strange that those six schools that teach Creationism ...BAN the TEACHING of Evolution

Quote:
Pauls film shows that the Tribolytes fed upon all the soft bodied microscopic egg shaped embryo life that had existed for 60 million years before the Cambrian Tribolytes evolved.
All of the Cambrian fossils show that they had compact articulated bodies, complete with legs, mouth and anus.


that's the problem that evolution endures to this day, according to the fossil record the life forms that suddenly appeared in the cambrian did not evolve from any of the life forms found in the
fossil record of the pre cambrian period , they just materialized, as if by magic.
Originally Posted By: Mike Kremer

Now you are changing the rules by going way way back to Trilobyes, when previously you were wondering about the lack of transitional later animal forms.

The whole basis of Creationism stands or falls upon this lack of Transitional forms. Tribolytes did not appear by magic as you say Paul. They are recorded in every part of the world, they evolved and fed upon the pre-Cambrian egg like embryos that themselves took 60 million years to evolve ..Before the Cambrian era. You wont get tribolytes or anything else to develop, unless they have food.
Plus the Tribolytes almost certainly evolved from the billions of semi-life forms called Diatoms, a microscopic hard shell creature.

Quote:

Later when all the different Phyla, left the sea shore and eventually ventured inland to die...THEN they became the sudden explosion of the very many different fossils found, in the world that the Creationists attribute to an Intelligence Source.


I'm not following that one , the very many fossils found in the cambrian were sea creatures , not land creatures.
Originally Posted By: Mike Kremer

Exactly . The Camrian period suddenly came to a finish.
then life restarted again...All evolving from the sea as per the pre-Cambrian perion. Only this time the life was rather more developed than before. It had plant algae and soft food to eat. Simple animals develope and basked on the sea shores.
They were hardly Oxygen breathers yet..Since our oxygen comes from the plants producing more of it.



Quote:
But the newly developed dead ones must have been battered to pieces in the strong surf tides
Which is why nobody. including Creationists has found any of this new animal life that evolution was evolving,...until they walked lived and died inland.



Originally Posted By: Mike Kremer

My idea is- that there will never be any earlier evolutionary transitional animals to be found, they were all destroyed and battered by the surf.
So eat your heart out Creationists.



Quote:
Is the above a possible answer?


that's hardly plausible , because for the most part the fossils that have been found were covered at or around the moment of death and preserved because they were covered , this is why they are
mostly intact , if they were not covered then scavengers would have consumed them and there would be no fossils. [/quote]
Originally Posted By: Mike kremer

You have gone off subject again or not reading properly.
Let me explain again..Yes we all know that many different fossils are found buried under land.
But the BASIS of where all our animals came from WILL NEVER BE FOUND.
Because the thousands of different forms of life CAME OUT OF THE SEA...That means ALL precursors and the evolutionary forms that we have in the world today.
Why will we NEVER see these amazing pre-Evolutionary forms?
BECAUSE their bodies were destroyed in the sea surf.
WHY? because they -were all new types of animals and never made it onto the LAND, to die.They all died on the beaches where they lived, there the surf broke up their dead bodies.

Thats why the Creationists cannot find the pre-evolutionary animals that we have in our world today.
Once they developed and able to walk away from the sea shore and onto the land ...We get their fossils ...
Like the walking Mud Skipper fish, whos fins developed into simple feet.
Kapisch?






Edited by Mike Kremer (12/27/12 08:04 PM)

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#47084 - 12/27/12 08:28 PM Re: Creationists and People [Re: Mike Kremer]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
Quote:
Because the thousands of different forms of life CAME OUT OF THE SEA...That means ALL precursors and the evolutionary forms that we have in the world today.
Why will we NEVER see these amazing pre-Evolutionary forms?
BECAUSE their bodies were destroyed in the sea surf.
WHY? because they -were all new types of animals and never made it onto the LAND, to die.They all died on the beaches where they lived, there the surf broke up their dead bodies.


I could understand why you would think that way if there
were no fossils found in the pre cambrian strata.

but there are fossils found in the pre cambrian strata.

so logic demands that they all did not die in the surf and
become ripped to shreads.

the problem with evolution is that there are no fossils
that can be linked to the many diverse forms of cambrian life.

its as if these cambrian forms of life were just there all
of a sudden , everywhere on the earth , fully developed , as if they had been transported from another planet where they had spent billions of years evolving.


Quote:
WHY? because they -were all new types of animals and never made it onto the LAND


during the cambrian and pre cambrian periods the ocean was above the places where the cambrian and pre cambrian fossils are found on land today.

so none of them made it onto land either , yet their fossils
are readily found in the strata.

there just aren't any transitional fossils found that would prove that evolution actually took place.

the fact that there are no transitional fossils shows more proof of Creation than evolution.

Quote:
Thats why the Creationists cannot find the pre-evolutionary animals that we have in our world today.
Once they developed and able to walk away from the sea shore and onto the land ...We get their fossils ...
Like the walking Mud Skipper fish, whos fins developed into simple feet.
Kapisch?


they didnt have to walk away from the sea shore in order for us to find their fossils , the sea shore walked away from them in a way because the land that contains their fossils rose above the water.



_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#47088 - 12/27/12 10:40 PM Re: Creationists and People [Re: Mike Kremer]
Bill S. Offline
Megastar

Registered: 08/20/10
Posts: 3570
Loc: Essex, UK
Originally Posted By: Paul
I'm still waiting to see some of the so much evidence.....


Originally Posted By: Bill S.
So are you going to have the courtesy to answer my question...


Could be we are all wasting our time here.
_________________________
There never was nothing.

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#47089 - 12/27/12 11:33 PM Re: Creationists and People [Re: Bill S.]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
I suppose that you have not openly or directly made
negative comments on this forum about Christians or Creation.

perhaps it's the names used Bill and Bill S. that confused me.
perhaps its the volume of people that I have to reply to in
almost every discussion that I enter into in this forum.

its as if I begin a discussion with one person then someone else takes over then someone else takes over a little while later.

no continuity is the continuity.

just like when I was discussing some things with Mike and then Orac jumps in with his ranting then you jump in requiring an
answer to something I said earlier.

but I'm used to that because that's the way the wolf pack
attack's their victim's , nipping at the heel's of their next
meal until the meal has been tired down.

then the alpha male jump's in , the problem in SAGG is that
the pack does not have a alpha male that can win a battle.

so they all lose , and lose alot.

Quote:
Could be we are all wasting our time here.


could this be the leader of the forum suggesting that
the pack find an easier victim?








_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#47092 - 12/28/12 12:34 AM Re: Creationists and People [Re: Bill S.]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Originally Posted By: Bill S.
Could be we are all wasting our time here.
Ha-ha-ha-ha...splitting my sides... grin
You can always be relied upon to add humour to the mix, Bill, but that's a peach grin
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

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#47093 - 12/28/12 02:05 AM Re: Creationists and People [Re: paul]
Orac Offline
Megastar

Registered: 05/20/11
Posts: 2819
Loc: Currently Illinois, USA
Originally Posted By: paul


so they all lose , and lose alot.



Haha you are funny.

If you call making up absolute crap that noone believes a win you have issues. Everyone is against you because what you say is crap and obviously crap.

The pack of everyone "nips" at you because you dribble rubbish that is unbelievable pure and simple.

Then you try and reverse science and we have to prove evolution where it is up to you to disprove evolution like we can disproved your version of creation.

That brings on the dummy spit from you about don't mention religion, stop mentioning religion or I will cry ... blah blah blah.

Then you call that a win :-)

For most of us here this is not a competetion we are here to discuss science.

The problem for you is you aren't here to discuss science you are here to peddle your religion and it is obvious as hell to everyone.

Incase you haven't noticed everyone has picked it up and is laughing at you ... YOU WON :-)


Edited by Orac (12/28/12 02:06 AM)
_________________________
I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.

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#47094 - 12/28/12 02:18 AM Re: Creationists and People [Re: paul]
Mike Kremer Offline

Megastar

Registered: 10/16/04
Posts: 1696
Loc: London UK
Originally Posted By: mike kremer


Mike Kremer said
Because the thousands of different forms of life CAME OUT OF THE SEA...That means ALL precursors and the evolutionary forms that we have in the world today.
Why will we NEVER see these amazing pre-Evolutionary forms?
BECAUSE their bodies were destroyed in the sea surf.
WHY? because they -were all new types of animals and never made it onto the LAND, to die.They all died on the beaches where they lived, there the surf broke up their dead bodies.

Originally Posted By: paul

paul replied to the above and said:-
I could understand why you would think that way if there
were no fossils found in the pre cambrian strata.

but there are fossils found in the pre cambrian strata.

so logic demands that they all did not die in the surf and
become ripped to shreds.

Originally Posted By: Mike kremer


I'm afraid you are getting a few million years ahead of your self Paul.
The fossils found in the pre-Camrian strata..as well as the Cambrian Strata. Are devoid of ANIMAL FOSSILS.
Its these transitional animal fossils that if found, would prove to the Creationists, once and for all, that
Evolution was alive and well.
Creationism would NOT EXIST if early animal fossils were found.

I maintain that these early and varied 'animal' life forms will never be found.
That unfortunately...should make the Creationists very happy.

Originally Posted By: Paul

and Paul said:-
the problem with evolution is that there are no fossils
that can be linked to the many diverse forms of cambrian life.

Originally Posted By: Mike kremer

Mike said:-
Again you should be talking about the EARLY ANIMAL fossils
that nobody can find as yet.
Why do you still insist that there were animal fossils that were supposed to have developed in the Cambrian shale beds?
We can see whats in the Cambrian shale...A lot of it has been uplifted in many parts of the World.
There are NO small animal transitional forms there. Which is exactly why the creationists are able to Fairy tale the story that some super Intelligent Source created all the animal differences, and put them down JUST WHERE?
They wer'nt put down during the Cambrian era.
So they must have been laid down,or evolved during a later Era.


Originally Posted By: Paul

Paul said:-
its as if these cambrian forms of life were just there all
of a sudden , everywhere on the earth , fully developed , as if they had been transported from another planet where they had spent billions of years evolving.

Originally Posted By: Mike Kremer

Hehehe...you just said some naughty words:-
----"spent billions of years evolving."

So you really do believe in evolution...as long as its not on our Earth, huh?
And why are we still talking about 'all these Cambrian life forms'?Cambrian Era did not contain fossils of Walking Mud Skipper fish that could breath oxygen, or any other small shore living animals, that had not evolved enough to go on
and live inland.

Do the Creationists believe that this Intelligent source of theirs ...incubated, or Evolved, all our varied Earthly animals and (prehaps man?) on another planet?
As you mention above.




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#47097 - 12/28/12 03:14 AM Re: Creationists and People [Re: Mike Kremer]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
Originally Posted By: Mike
The fossils found in the pre-Camrian strata..as well as the Cambrian Strata. Are devoid of ANIMAL FOSSILS.

Originally Posted By: Mike
Why do you still insist that there were animal fossils that were supposed to have developed in the Cambrian shale beds?

its more like I was right on the money , and you are just wrong.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambrian_explosion

Originally Posted By: wikipedia
The Cambrian explosion, or Cambrian radiation, was the relatively rapid appearance, around 530 million years ago, of most major animal phyla, as demonstrated in the fossil record


Originally Posted By: Mike

We can see whats in the Cambrian shale...A lot of it has been uplifted in many parts of the World.
There are NO small animal transitional forms there.


the pre cambrian was where the development should have occurred
just like I have been saying , but there was no development.
there was no evolution.
they just appeared.

I'm not sure exactly what your attempting to do Mike
but it sure looks as if you don't know what your takling about at all.

Quote:
Hehehe...you just said some naughty words:-
----"spent billions of years evolving."

So you really do believe in evolution...as long as its not on our Earth, huh?


I dont believe in evolution , I have said that plenty of times.
I believe that the development changes that are seen are simply
due to the environment.

and I did say ( its as if ) heres what I said.

Quote:
its as if these cambrian forms of life were just there all
of a sudden , everywhere on the earth , fully developed , as if they had been transported from another planet where they had spent billions of years evolving.


_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#47098 - 12/28/12 03:44 AM Re: Creationists and People [Re: Orac]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
Quote:
Incase you haven't noticed everyone has picked it up and is laughing at you ... YOU WON :-)


but you guys are not the only one's who are reading the post , so
given the evidence I have presented and the lack of evidence you guys have presented , I wouldn't go as far as to say that it is me that they are laughing at, LOL.

there are 92 people viewing the forum right now.
I would venture to say that at least all of them except those who
normally post here are laughing at you guys.

not me.

there's no reason for them to laugh at what I have written.
_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#47099 - 12/28/12 04:13 AM Re: Creationists and People [Re: paul]
Orac Offline
Megastar

Registered: 05/20/11
Posts: 2819
Loc: Currently Illinois, USA
Oh they are rioting in the street demanding that the jewish torah as interpretted by some radical fundementalists is taught as creation.

Meanwhile all science is in complete disarray demanding that evolution has been falsified and needs to be replaced by goat god philosophy.

YEP you are indeed the biggest WINNER I have ever met!!!!!!

NEWSFLASH READING DOES NOT EQUAL SUPPORTING YOUR VIEW, THEY MAY NOT BE SUPPORTING SCIENCE VIEW EITHER THUS WE CAN ONLY ASSUME THE STATUS QUO UNLESS THEY DECIDE TO ACT OR TALK.

Quote:

there are 92 people viewing the forum right now.
I would venture to say that at least all of them except those whonormally post here are laughing at you guys.

not me.


And you evidence for the above statement is Mr Winner?
I personally assume nothing if they aren't commenting I can't say anything about what they believe because I am not delusional like WINNERS.

As people above have explained you have bigger issues than evolution, evolution being wrong would not prove creation because there may be other theories out there which may supercede both those theories. You have turned something into a two horse race which isn't a two horse race.

So again your win is only in your own mind.


Edited by Orac (12/28/12 04:43 AM)
_________________________
I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.

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#47101 - 12/28/12 05:42 AM Re: Creationists and People [Re: Mike Kremer]
Ellis Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
So who did the creating?--- because surely if there is 'creationism' there must be a creator, or otherwise it will just be an 'ism' (which is in the dictionary as a suffix- and with a whole host of interesting meanings resulting from its usage.)

Choose from the following from The Penguin English Dictionary.

2. a) a state or property
b) a pathological state or property.
3. a) a doctrine or cult.
b) prejudice

Some very apt meanings there I think.

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#47102 - 12/28/12 09:49 AM Re: Creationists and People [Re: Mike Kremer]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Oops, Ellis. I expect there will follow the usual vitriolic slamming of atheism and agnosticism. We could discuss rheumatism instead, but that might be a sign of pragmatism. Wouldn't want too much of that now would we.
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

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#47104 - 12/28/12 01:20 PM Re: Creationists and People [Re: paul]
Bill S. Offline
Megastar

Registered: 08/20/10
Posts: 3570
Loc: Essex, UK
Quote:
I suppose that you have not openly or directly made
negative comments on this forum about Christians or Creation.


Absolutely right; so any negative connotations are in the mind of the "beholder".

Quote:
perhaps it's the names used Bill and Bill S. that confused me.


Undoubtedly it is regrettable that the presence of just two Bills should occasion such profound disorientation. You may recall that I expressed the intention to leave this thread; perhaps that would have helped. I interpreted you attempt at a provocative response as being designed as a deterrent from such action. Perhaps you saw me as part of your illusory wolf pack, which could ill afford depletion if you were to sustain any momentum towards intellectual martyrdom for your beliefs.

Your confusion may have caused you to overlook the fact that on more than one occasion I have said I accept that people's beliefs, perhaps especially their religious beliefs, are deeply important to them and should not me mocked.

Obviously if a person brings his/her beliefs into a discussion forum, it is reasonable to assume that they are there for discussion.

Quote:
its as if I begin a discussion with one person then someone else takes over then someone else takes over a little while later.


Does that not have something to do with the fact that this is a discussion forum? Do you not join in discussions?

There is always the PM option if open discussion is too threatening.
_________________________
There never was nothing.

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#47110 - 12/28/12 04:09 PM Re: Creationists and People [Re: Bill S.]
Orac Offline
Megastar

Registered: 05/20/11
Posts: 2819
Loc: Currently Illinois, USA
Paul doesn't want to discuss anything he wants to tell you the one thing that is important to him that his strange version of creation is correct. He will pervert and change any and all facts and science to that end.

Unfortunately it is behaviour that is too common to alot of religions being simple indoctrination by lies and deception.
_________________________
I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.

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#47112 - 12/28/12 04:58 PM Re: Creationists and People [Re: Orac]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
I have been trying , basically pleading for the believers
of evolution to present an argument in favor of evolution.

all I get is words , thing's that evolutionist have heard from
other evolutionist , as they pat each other on the back and invent
more and more fake evidence in the form of drawings and models
of what they perceive evolution would look like if evolution would have occured.

they never can produce a single piece of evidence.

just words that they have heard or read in evolutionist book's.

they might as well be reciting from comic book's as comic book's
closely resemble the proof that is established through drawing's
and clay modeling of the characters in the evolution saga fable.

why would evolution need to produce any hard evidence when
evolution can simply make its own evidence using drawings and modeling clay?













_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#47113 - 12/28/12 05:29 PM Re: Creationists and People [Re: paul]
Orac Offline
Megastar

Registered: 05/20/11
Posts: 2819
Loc: Currently Illinois, USA
For the last time we don't have to PROVE evolution it simply needs to be falsified if its wrong.

NO ONE HAS EVER FALSIFIED IT.

Why would we waste our time trying to prove it to you as you would never accept our proof because you have a problem if it is true your religion, GOD and beliefs die and thus you couldn't accept any proof.

ON THE REVERSE THE BOOK OF GENESIS IS EASY TO FALSIFY and Darwin easily did that when he created the theory of evolution.

You think it's a comic story who gives a rats you can't and haven't falsified evolution so it's not worth wasting time on.

Evolution still is installed as science theory because it has never been formally falsified ... GET IT ... NOT HARD TO UNDERSTAND.

Thats how science works and although simple you seem to struggle with basics like this.

You similarly struggled with why creationism couldn't be taught as science in schools because the law upheld the simple rules of science. The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster created as threat/paradody by scientist showed what would happen if we don't adhere to the science rules any stupidity could call itself science and demand to be taught as science.

The law doesn't give a rats whether you believe in evolution, Science doesn't give a rats if you believe in evolution and I am certainly not going to waste my time in a pointless argument with you because I don't give a rats if you believe in evolution.

Evolution remains the current theory of development of life on the planet by science and nothing you can do short of a formal falsification will change that ... get over it.

Stop wasting peoples time if you want to have a crack at falsifying it go for it otherwise move on.


Edited by Orac (12/28/12 05:46 PM)
_________________________
I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.

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#47114 - 12/28/12 06:21 PM Re: Creationists and People [Re: Orac]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
see what I mean , no evidence , no proof , not even a hint
of a feasible theory , nothing , nothing at all.

only ranting and raving and comic book fairy tale stories
that describe what is supposed to be a part of science.

evolution can not prove itself using Creation , because
evolution denies Creation.

yet , the blind followers of evolution do try.

they laugh at those who believe in Creation , because they have
all their drawing's and their models that they invented to protect themselves.
_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#47119 - 12/29/12 12:04 AM Re: Creationists and People [Re: paul]
Orac Offline
Megastar

Registered: 05/20/11
Posts: 2819
Loc: Currently Illinois, USA
No we chose not to engage in pointless exchanges ... science is not a popularity contest and doesn't need us to rally numbers to defend it.

Science is very comfortable with evolution and it's standing.

For me personally I laugh at your genesis version of creation because it is so obviously wrong at a child level. I also laugh at your lack of understanding of how science works :-)


Basically wow a religious fruitloop such as yourself doesn't believe in evolution I am sure that is going to rock everyones world. I am comfortable anyone reading this forum gets the picture ... LOL.


Edited by Orac (12/29/12 12:05 AM)
_________________________
I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.

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