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#47053 - 12/26/12 03:54 PM Re: Creationists and People [Re: paul]
Bill Offline
Megastar

Registered: 12/31/10
Posts: 1858
Loc: Oklahoma, USA
Originally Posted By: Paul
Bill Gill will plead to his
Gentile Readers claiming himself to be a genius again

Paul, you have a typo there I wrote gentle, not gentile, I'm not writing just for non-Jews. I'm writing for any body who is interested in the subject that is under discussion. That includes Jews and Mormons (who frequently refer to non-Mormons as gentiles).

Bill Gill
_________________________
C is not the speed of light in a vacuum.
C is the universal speed limit.

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#47054 - 12/26/12 04:42 PM Re: Creationists and People [Re: paul]
Bill S. Offline
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Registered: 08/20/10
Posts: 3570
Loc: Essex, UK
Quote:
now that you have all had your laugh


Quote:
we might hear from Bill s that the document
origins of the species is too old or religious
or some excuse


Since, quite obviously, you either do not read, or fail to understand my posts, I'll stop wasting my time.
_________________________
There never was nothing.

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#47055 - 12/26/12 04:44 PM Re: Creationists and People [Re: Bill]
paul Offline
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Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
But the point was that you are writing to show how smart you
are , LOL.

which didn't work.
_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#47056 - 12/26/12 04:45 PM Re: Creationists and People [Re: Bill S.]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
the usual tuck the tail between the legs and run scientific
method once again there , Bill s.
_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#47058 - 12/26/12 05:01 PM Re: Creationists and People [Re: Mike Kremer]
Bill S. Offline
Megastar

Registered: 08/20/10
Posts: 3570
Loc: Essex, UK
Originally Posted By: Bill S.
Since, quite obviously, you either do not read, or fail to understand my posts, I'll stop wasting my time.


Originally Posted By: Paul
the usual tuck the tail between the legs and run scientific method once again there , Bill s.


Thanks Paul, why would I need to continue with this discussion when you make my point about its futility for me so eloquently?
_________________________
There never was nothing.

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#47059 - 12/26/12 06:18 PM Re: Creationists and People [Re: Bill S.]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
Quote:
Thanks Paul, why would I need to continue with this discussion when you make my point about its futility for me so eloquently


your welcome.

BTW

why is it that people who place so much faith in evolution
are the first to tuck - n - run?

you and Bill Gill and Mike enjoyed a good laugh at the
expense of other's who believe and know that Creation
actually happened , and when your faced with the same
problems that darwin encountered , which supports Creation
you simply ignore the established facts and data that has
been recorded for the past 170 years or so through the work of
well known experts in their fields.

and you guys think of evolution as being correct by claiming that Creation didnt happen and yourselves as the correct one's.

LOL , what a pot of excrement you brew.

_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#47060 - 12/26/12 06:38 PM Re: Creationists and People [Re: Mike Kremer]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
Quote:
Its obvious since you creationists discount the archeological
records of early life,


no, we don't discount the record.

you non-creationist are the ones who discount the archaeological record of early life.

I'm talking about that terribly difficult stage in evolution
where magic first came into play.

what should have been recorded in the record was the
long gradual stages of evolution that evolution claims
would have happened , yet in stead of any transition at
all NONE there's suddenly a world full of fully formed life forms.

complete with eyes , skeletal framework , limbs , etc...

fully complete beings. (only they didn't evolve)
they just suddenly appeared.

or should I just simply say the missing transitions not found below the cambrian where evolution says they should be.

the place where Creation took place.

on the 5th Day

Quote:
[1:20] And God said, "Let the waters bring forth swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the dome of the sky."
[1:21] So God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, of every kind, with which the waters swarm, and every winged bird of every kind. And God saw that it was good.
[1:22] God blessed them, saying, "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth."
[1:23] And there was evening and there was morning, the fifth day.


_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#47061 - 12/26/12 06:57 PM Re: Creationists and People [Re: Mike Kremer]
Bill S. Offline
Megastar

Registered: 08/20/10
Posts: 3570
Loc: Essex, UK
Originally Posted By: Paul
you and Bill Gill and Mike enjoyed a good laugh at the
expense of other's who believe and know that Creation
actually happened


Paul, please show me where you think I had a laugh at anyone's expense.
_________________________
There never was nothing.

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#47062 - 12/26/12 07:19 PM Re: Creationists and People [Re: Bill S.]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
whats the matter guys.
almost a page of replies and not one of you have
given a rebuttal to what I said about the pre cambrian period.

only spelling error comments from Bill Gill.
and
Bill s trying to make it look as if he has never said
anything negative about Creationist or Creation.

I think that's really sad that you guys don't have
anything that supports your belief system.

at least we do have the Bible and the archaeological record
that supports us.

you see we don't have to wonder or guess like evolution does
because Creation is recorded in both the Bible and in the
archaeological record.

so Creation is more of what science calls science than evolution is.

but its not a theory like evolution is because its
written down in layers of strata inside the earth where
no man can change it.

it cant be swept under the rug of science , or locked away
in a back room of a museum.


but I bet you guys wish you could do that to save your belief system from ruin.

_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#47063 - 12/26/12 08:10 PM Re: Creationists and People [Re: paul]
Bill Offline
Megastar

Registered: 12/31/10
Posts: 1858
Loc: Oklahoma, USA
Well, gentle readers here we go again. Paul is making unfounded claims to try to bolster his false claims of proof of creationism. So here are a handful of sites with info about PreCambrian fossils.

Virtual Fossil Museum

The Precambrian Fossil Record

Solution to Darwin's dilemma

And if you want to do a quick search on the web you can find many more sites that also show lots of fossils.
_________________________
C is not the speed of light in a vacuum.
C is the universal speed limit.

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#47064 - 12/26/12 08:19 PM Re: Creationists and People [Re: paul]
Bill S. Offline
Megastar

Registered: 08/20/10
Posts: 3570
Loc: Essex, UK
Originally Posted By: Paul
Bill s trying to make it look as if he has never said
anything negative about Creationist or Creation


So are you going to have the courtesy to answer my question, or just hide behind more unsubstantiated "smart" assertions?
_________________________
There never was nothing.

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#47065 - 12/26/12 08:25 PM Re: Creationists and People [Re: Bill]
Bill S. Offline
Megastar

Registered: 08/20/10
Posts: 3570
Loc: Essex, UK
Some interesting links there, Bill, but, of course they have validity as a pro-evolution argument only if you accept radiometric dating as reliable.
_________________________
There never was nothing.

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#47066 - 12/26/12 09:04 PM Re: Creationists and People [Re: Mike Kremer]
Bill S. Offline
Megastar

Registered: 08/20/10
Posts: 3570
Loc: Essex, UK
Matters of Faith

"When I was a child, I thought as a child." I accepted the beliefs and teachings of those who were important to me. It was inconceivable that they could be wrong. If my mother was wrong, what safety was there in my infant world?

Later I was able to look with a little more safety at the wider picture, and to ask questions such as: what would I believe now if I had been brought up as a Jew, Hindu or Buddhist?

I began to question what claim any ancient scripture had to being more authoritative than any other. Jews maintain that the Torah is the word of God. Christians make the same claim for the Bible. Is either of these claims any better than a claim that the Upanishads, the Bhagavad-Gita or the teachings of the Buddha might be the word of God?

Until questions such as these can be answered with some degree of certainty, supporting arguments by quoting from any of these sources is pointless; unless the discussion is about the relative merits of the morals and ethics of the various teachings.

My belief? There can never have been a time when there was nothing, otherwise there would be nothing now.

If that belief is correct, then creation, evolution, belief and scientific enquiry all operate within the framework of an eternal/infinite reality. What the precise nature of that reality is, I don't know, and I strongly suspect no one else does.

One thing I am fairly sure of is that we all have a right to our beliefs, and, if we need to, to defend our beliefs.

I think we have a right to question the beliefs of others, if they bring their beliefs into an arena of discussion, but I think we should do so with courtesy and sensitivity. If another person is obviously afraid to question his/her beliefs and resorts to anger or abuse as a defence, I think we should acknowledge that fear as being very real, and, perhaps, back off, as a matter of sensitivity.

I also believe that I have no right to tell anyone else that his/her beliefs are wrong, and mine are right. I believe I have the right to similar courtesy in return, and that others also have that right.
_________________________
There never was nothing.

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#47067 - 12/26/12 11:33 PM Re: Creationists and People [Re: Bill S.]
Bill Offline
Megastar

Registered: 12/31/10
Posts: 1858
Loc: Oklahoma, USA
Originally Posted By: Bill S.
I also believe that I have no right to tell anyone else that his/her beliefs are wrong, and mine are right. I believe I have the right to similar courtesy in return, and that others also have that right.

I feel that in one way you are right about that, but in another there is the problem that many people try to force their beliefs on others. In the case of creationism the believers don't just try to persuade people, they try to force their beliefs into the schools. That is where they go wrong.

In my case I keep replying to Paul so that I can point out the errors in the creationist claims. There is so much evidence that evolution is a fact that I want to make sure that other people who read Paul's posts are not mislead by his belief's into accepting them as true.

Bill Gill
_________________________
C is not the speed of light in a vacuum.
C is the universal speed limit.

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#47068 - 12/26/12 11:58 PM Re: Creationists and People [Re: Bill]
Bill S. Offline
Megastar

Registered: 08/20/10
Posts: 3570
Loc: Essex, UK
Unfortunately, if you are certain in your own mind that holding a particular belief is essential to something as important as eternal life, missionary zeal can easily get in the way of other people's rights.

Some 20 years ago I was talking to a Catholic Priest, a member of a Missionary Order, he said he thought we had no right to go to other people's countries and tell them that their beliefs were wrong, and ours were right. Sadly, such enlightenment is rare.
_________________________
There never was nothing.

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#47069 - 12/27/12 12:25 AM Re: Creationists and People [Re: Bill]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
LOL

this

what is that , bacteria?
could you even see it?
with a magnifying glass?
would it take a microscope?

nothing in between !

then this


some as large as 50 cm in length!

excuse me but that does not solve the darwinian dilemma!

and it still proves Creation.






_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#47071 - 12/27/12 02:49 AM Re: Creationists and People [Re: Bill]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
Quote:
There is so much evidence that evolution is a fact


I'm still waiting to see some of the so much evidence , the
linski thingy didn't show evolution.

it showed that bacteria can begin to use a nutrient that it stopped using earlier, but it didn't show any thing new.

I have read that the linski thing was the best evidence that
evolution had , but still can you post something else?

_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#47072 - 12/27/12 05:04 AM Re: Creationists and People [Re: paul]
Mike Kremer Offline

Megastar

Registered: 10/16/04
Posts: 1696
Loc: London UK
I must admit Paul, the Video is very interesting if rather long.

My personal rather hurried thoughts came to mind rather quickly

When it comes to the Why, Where, and How life started here on Earth

....None of us want to believe in fairy tales, do we?
Every correct honest and science minded person would like to know the truth.
However the truth was not available 6000+ years ago.....Genesis was written by the cleverest men of their time, Over time, historical items were added by different groups of peoples.

Every different group of peoples in the world have their own even similar Bibles. They became similar due to cultural communication, where it happened..

A large proportion of peoples in the world treat the Bible as a Fairy tale with with later added local histories.
Nothing wrong in that....it was, and still is accepted as the truth, by many peoples.
The problem is, it does not answer my underlined question above.
Still yet is another large proportion of peoples that talk about an all seeing, and all encompassing invisible God-like Father, who created our world and who obviously should look out for us.
Thats another set of truths accepted by an larger group of (religious) peoples.

Both ideas still don't answer the underlined question above, and so a more modern and recent idea was formulated, called Creationism.

Creationism trys to use semi-scientific arguements in their hunt for the truth and to validate its points.
Creationists, deny Evolution.....because no-one has ever found Transitional life forms that would prove evolution as a fact to them.
That said- they cleverly accept the historical Biblical accounts (not wanting to upset the Bible thumpers) and state that Life must have started, been created, formed,
and controlled by an Intelligent Source.
Its a clever but unproven idea.

Nobody wants Fairy stories....we would all like the truth
If no transitional Life has been found....it may mean that we hav'nt looked around hard enough.
That does not mean that Creationism has to be correct, or even accepted.

Creationism makes a good point...that after the Cambrian explosion, there was no fossil records of the evolutionary theory that Darwin was so desperate find, to enable him to back up and prove his theory of Evolution.

Yet there are thousands of later records proving Evolution, ..... fish came out of the sea, developed lungs, and walked the Earth...continuing to develop, as did plant life.

The problem is that Creationists do not accept Evolution, because no fossil records later
than Cambrian show any signs of Oxygen breathing small animals.
They believe that all the animals that came later...were a product of Intelligent design.
That gave them eyes to see with, feet to run with, arms to fight with, and brains to survive, all courtesy of Intelligent design. There was an explosion of different animals, the reasons I will discuss later.

Since there are gaps in Creationism, and gaps in Evolution.....it follows that there is not
enough information to produce the truth, one way or another.
Truth is truth...it may take very many years into the future to find it, but eventually another more correct idea will come along, and tend to push out all our old ideas.
The more correct the answer, the quicker its acceptance.

I would like to throw in some (to me) obvious ideas regarding the lack of post Cambrian life.
Tribolites in all their beautiful forms are found all over the world in the mountain ranges of Wales, Canada, and China. All found about the same height above sea level
Remember they were all fossilised on the sea floor, covered by silt, sand or fine dust.

And then the records show, they were no more. Life died.
I would like to posit that they died because of a sudden large amount of dust covered them so thickly that it killed their food source, even making it difficult for
them to move around, plus with no food they died ---all over the world.

Pauls film shows that the Tribolytes fed upon all the soft bodied microscopic egg shaped embryo life that had existed for 60 million years before the Cambrian Tribolytes evolved.

All of the Cambrian fossils show that they had compact articulated bodies, complete with legs, mouth and anus.
Then they died everywhere...I'm suggesting the shallow seabeds all over the world were covered in a fine silt.
Life had to start again. Soft bodied life along sea-shores, developed and ate their own developing soft life.
They could not nibble Tribolyte's for food, they were hard shelled and fossilising under silt.
These new soft bodied creatures were not even found together with Tribolytes, or above them in the strata.

These were the development of new soft life , that eventually developed into Jelly fish, articulated worms and fish........Oh yes many millions of years later.
Sorry I am writing quickly, and not bothering about looking up Epoch dates.

I would also like to suggest that this new soft bodied life
after death, did not survive in the strong sea tides around the worlds shallow coasts. Dead they left no trace.

Later when all the different Phyla, left the sea shore and eventually ventured inland to die...THEN they became the sudden explosion of the very many different fossils found, in the world that the Creationists attribute to an Intelligence Source.

At that time, there must have been many different animals developing aplenty.
But the newly developed dead ones must have been battered to pieces in the strong surf tides
Which is why nobody. including Creationists has found any of this new animal life that evolution was evolving,...until they walked lived and died inland.

The continents separated slowly, leaving shallow seas, when these tiny animals left the sea, and populated various places inland, and died inland. Only then could the modern archeologists dig down, find and place that multitude of animals into the evolutionry catalogue.

My idea is- that there will never be any earlier evolutionary transitional animals to be found, they were all destroyed and battered by the surf.
So eat your heart out Creationists.

We mine for coal, drill for oil, change the valleys to build dams, but no Transitional animal life has been found, as yet.
Life began in the sea, the various types of animals developed on the sea shores. They died leaving no trace util they walked inland.
Is the above a possible answer?

We dont know the answers, regarding Earths life. But you can be sure what we believe in today has a percentage of fairy story, and incorrect data attached to it.
_________________________
.

.
"You will never find a real Human being - Even in a mirror." ....Mike Kremer.



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#47076 - 12/27/12 03:52 PM Re: Creationists and People [Re: paul]
Orac Offline
Megastar

Registered: 05/20/11
Posts: 2819
Loc: Currently Illinois, USA
Originally Posted By: paul
the usual tuck the tail between the legs and run scientific
method once again there , Bill s.



SO IS THAT AN OPEN INVITATION TO ME PAUL

I mean I wouldn't want to be ACUSED OF STARTING a conversation on religion


CAN I DISSCUSS YOUR CRAZY BELIEFS AND HOW UNSCIENTIFIC AND IMPOSSIBLE THEY ARE?

I am checking here because I am coming in boots and all with a whole pile of questions I have for you.

SCIENCE DOESN'T PROVE THINGS IT WORKS BY FALSIFIABILITY

In that Evolution has never been falsified then your total argument is crap from a scientific point.

The reverse is not true of your religious beliefs have manifestly been proven false and most religions even run a mile from any claim of literal accuracy of genesis.


This is the point you keep missing we don't have to prove evolution is right you don't like it prove it is wrong ... good luck with that :-)

If you want science to have to prove evolution then you should have to prove the alternative ... again good luck.


Edited by Orac (12/27/12 05:11 PM)
_________________________
I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.

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#47080 - 12/27/12 05:10 PM Re: Creationists and People [Re: Mike Kremer]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
Quote:
When it comes to the Why, Where, and How life started here on Earth, None of us want to believe in fairy tales, do we?
Every correct honest and science minded person would like to know the truth.


exactly , and further down you say

Quote:
If no transitional Life has been found....it may mean that we hav'nt looked around hard enough.
That does not mean that Creationism has to be correct, or even accepted.


you cant find proof of evolution so you say that because evolution has no proof then Creation must not be correct.
that seem's way out of line to me as a logical thinking person.

that also does not mean that evolution has to be correct, or even accepted , but it is accepted and taught in schools
as if it were correct , and creation is not taught in schools , although Creation is seen clearly in the fossil record to have
taken place.


Quote:
Pauls film shows that the Tribolytes fed upon all the soft bodied microscopic egg shaped embryo life that had existed for 60 million years before the Cambrian Tribolytes evolved.
All of the Cambrian fossils show that they had compact articulated bodies, complete with legs, mouth and anus.


that's the problem that evolution endures to this day, according to the fossil record the life forms that suddenly appeared in the cambrian did not evolve from any of the life forms found in the
fossil record of the pre cambrian period , they just materialized, as if by magic.


Quote:

Later when all the different Phyla, left the sea shore and eventually ventured inland to die...THEN they became the sudden explosion of the very many different fossils found, in the world that the Creationists attribute to an Intelligence Source.


I'm not following that one , the very many fossils found in the cambrian were sea creatures , not land creatures.



Quote:
But the newly developed dead ones must have been battered to pieces in the strong surf tides
Which is why nobody. including Creationists has found any of this new animal life that evolution was evolving,...until they walked lived and died inland.



Quote:
My idea is- that there will never be any earlier evolutionary transitional animals to be found, they were all destroyed and battered by the surf.
So eat your heart out Creationists.



Quote:
Is the above a possible answer?


that's hardly plausible , because for the most part the fossils that have been found were covered at or around the moment of death and preserved because they were covered , this is why they are
mostly intact , if they were not covered then scavengers would have consumed them and there would be no fossils.

in the video it shows fossils being found in what was a reef.
and it was underneath the cambrian strata on the reef that no
evidence of evolution was found.




_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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