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#46896 - 12/19/12 03:42 AM Re: ABOUT Our Response to School Shootings ...... [Re: Bill S.]
Ellis Offline
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Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
There has been a lot of discussion about the fact that in Switzerland every male has to have a gun and maintain it (not the women though, I wonder why not?) Contrary to many opinions Switzerland does have gun murders, but a remarkably small number considering that every household has at least one gun, with bullets.

You were suggesting that there is something else at play here, and I think that it is the system of referenda that they have in Switzerland about controversial new changes to the law. Each voter is canvassed for his (and her) opinion and the result is acted upon in Parliament. Each person then has a feeling of ownership of the legislation, the members of government are there to represent the will of the electorate, and the electorate is consulted as each opinion is collated.

I feel many in America feel disengaged from their governments and devoid of any power. This is not supposed to happen in a democracy. The people are supposed to be the power.

Maybe the answer is to engage people in their own future as the Swiss do with their referenda. A place to start may be to have a new uniform method of actually electing the representatives--- either all go on-line or all use pencil or paper---- or some arcane method such as using a hole-punch. Just make sure it is uniform. Have the elections monitored centrally so local people with an interest in the results cannot influence them. I'm sure there are a lot of things which could make people feel more enfranchised and involved. Also every citizen should ensure they vote.

This may seen to be a long way from the deaths of those little boys and girls, not to mention the murdered people from the other 36 mass shootings there have been in the US. I do not think all those killers were insane, but I do think they were disengaged with their society. And one way to feel better is to go and shoot things, with a gun.

Guns may not kill people, but people with guns sure do.





Edited by Ellis (12/19/12 03:43 AM)

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#46907 - 12/19/12 09:54 PM Re: ABOUT Our Response to School Shootings ...... [Re: Ellis]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Originally Posted By: Ellis
... This may seen to be a long way from the deaths of those little boys and girls, not to mention the murdered people from the other 36 mass shootings there have been in the US.
Keep thinking, Ellis. Then you say,
Quote:
I do not think all those killers were insane, but I do think they were disengaged with their society. And one way to feel better is to go and shoot things, with a gun.
Ellis, may I suggest we all need to rethink the meaning of 'insanity'. Take a look at the generally accepted meaning of the term.
Quote:
in·san·i·ty
[in-san-i-tee] Show IPA
noun, plural in·san·i·ties.
1. the condition of being insane; a derangement of the mind. Synonyms: dementia, lunacy, madness, craziness, mania, aberration.
2. Law. such unsoundness of mind as frees one from legal responsibility, as for committing a crime, or as signals one's lack of legal capacity, as for entering into a contractual agreement.
3. Psychiatry. (formerly) psychosis.
4. a.extreme foolishness; folly; senselessness; foolhardiness: Trying to drive through that traffic would be pure insanity.
b. a foolish or senseless action, policy, statement, etc.: We've heard decades of insanities in our political discourse.
Origin: 1580–90; < Latin ins&#257;nit&#257;s. See in-3 , sanity
Ellis, IMO, I have not met any human being, including myself, who has never been a bit insane, now and then.

In addition, over the years, I have met quite a number who were civilly and/or criminally insane.

The challenge is:
1. If I ever get to the stage that I become a nuisance to myself, family, neighbours and to others around me and if I break any of the civil laws, does this not give others the right to sue me? There may be others, who just want to be good Samaritans, who ought to have the right to interfere, and help decide what happens to me, don't you think?

We need to have a dialogue about questions like this.

2. If I break any of the criminal laws, does this not automatically give the servants of the state, ones we call the police, the lawful right, even obligation, to arrest me?

3. What about citizens arrest? Interestingly [I once actually performed such an arrest. It prevented a fire in the virtual making and benefited the female "criminal" greatly.]

In another case--in the presence of two policemen--a "criminal"--who was obviously insane--at my request, gave me the knife (I still have the knife) with which he said he intended to kill himself and/or "ANY GD COP WHO TRIES TO STOP ME".]



Edited by Revlgking (12/19/12 10:13 PM)
Edit Reason: Always helpful
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G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#46908 - 12/19/12 11:46 PM Re: ABOUT Our Response to School Shootings ...... [Re: Revlgking]
Ellis Offline
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Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
You are probably correct about my state of mind at times Rev, but I think that your definition (1) describes the young killer fairly accurately.

I read an interesting and rather thought provoking point this morning:-

If that famous saying, "Guns don't kill, people do" is correct, is not its logical conclusion that we should encourage Iran, North Korea et al to stock up on nuclear weapons because "Nuclear weapons don't kill people, people do"?

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#46910 - 12/20/12 01:43 AM Re: ABOUT Our Response to School Shootings ...... [Re: Ellis]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4135
Quote:
I wonder why not?


now that's a side splitter , LOL

and I bet the men have the gun's locked away really good.



_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#46911 - 12/20/12 02:04 AM Re: ABOUT Our Response to School Shootings ...... [Re: Ellis]
paul Offline
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Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4135
Quote:
is not its logical conclusion that we should encourage Iran, North Korea et al to stock up on nuclear weapons because "Nuclear weapons don't kill people, people do"?


I think its what we perceive them to be.

if insanity could be applied to a nation , certainly these
nation's that you have mentioned would not be described as
insane as these nation's do nothing that we perceive as insane.

do they?

even in the U.S. the criminally insane can not
legally buy / own gun's.

maybe were just extending our rules to them if we perceive them to be insane.










_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#46913 - 12/20/12 02:41 AM Re: ABOUT Our Response to School Shootings ...... [Re: Revlgking]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Registered: 06/19/08
Posts: 1249
Loc: Everywhere and nowhere
There is a problem in the idea that psychiatry cannot cure anything and is not seen as a science. Who then gets to determine what insanity is and apply the label other than a group of people given the authority because the majority needs and accepts someone to divide the social misfits from the democratically accepted standard?

The pot calling the kettle black...
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#46914 - 12/20/12 02:57 AM Re: ABOUT Our Response to School Shootings ...... [Re: Ellis]
Bill S. Offline
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Registered: 08/20/10
Posts: 3570
Loc: Essex, UK
You surprise me Ellis, your logic is usually better than that. I would not argue with: "Nuclear weapons don't kill people, people do"; but encouraging any nation to stock up on nuclear weapons certainly does not follow logically from that. Nor does encouraging people to arm themselves to the teeth with guns necessarily follow logically from the first statement.
_________________________
There never was nothing.

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#46915 - 12/20/12 03:02 AM Re: ABOUT Our Response to School Shootings ...... [Re: Tutor Turtle]
Bill S. Offline
Megastar

Registered: 08/20/10
Posts: 3570
Loc: Essex, UK
TT, let's not confuse the ability (or otherwise) to cure with the authority to attach labels.
_________________________
There never was nothing.

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#46921 - 12/20/12 05:33 AM Re: ABOUT Our Response to School Shootings ...... [Re: Bill S.]
Ellis Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
I think I liked the totally flawed common sense as well as the flawed logic, Bill S. It is of course beyond stupid to suggest that our planet needs more nuclear armed countries, as it is beyond stupid to argue that guns don't kill people. It really is sophistry of the worst sort.

I have just been reading an on-line discussion that is seriously pondering suggestions that to make schools safe in America there should be armed guards at each school, not just one, but two, in case one gets shot. Others suggest that every teacher should learn to use a gun, and there should be a gun locker in each class-room. Grade 5 and 6 and above ( and the suggestion was for the BOYS ONLY to do this) should do drills to enable them to charge a gun man. I am not making this up. These are serious and sincere people grappling with a dreadful situation.

Somehow arming North Korea doesn't look so horrific after all. (Sorry that was flippant- but I am a bit upset. We all know this is not going to be the last incident).

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#46924 - 12/20/12 03:17 PM Re: ABOUT Our Response to School Shootings ...... [Re: Bill S.]
Tutor Turtle Offline
Megastar

Registered: 06/19/08
Posts: 1249
Loc: Everywhere and nowhere
Originally Posted By: Bill S.
TT, let's not confuse the ability (or otherwise) to cure with the authority to attach labels.

I don't think there is any doubt that anything dysfunctional can be cured. However finding the cure also means finding the cause.

As long as people are consumed by self image and the need to make comparisons, people will find ways to fend off those that are seemingly a threat to their position. Those with low self esteem will find themselves abandoned by those who are impressed with themselves and their titles as they go about their lives preaching of their success and their methods for the lessor peoples to pull themselves up, while maintaining the reality that worth is an outward presentation of talents and abilities.

Psychiatrists admit, they don't cure people. They study and treat according to their own beliefs and best ideas.
They are absorbed into the very system that teaches their children to measure life and worthiness with success in the appearances of materialism.

We are graded as children, taught to compare and measure worthiness according to social standards, and our society supports those who have been taught to accept their weaknesses and limitations as prescribed by generations of programmed thinking.
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#46934 - 12/20/12 07:35 PM Re: ABOUT Our Response to School Shootings ...... [Re: Tutor Turtle]
Bill S. Offline
Megastar

Registered: 08/20/10
Posts: 3570
Loc: Essex, UK
Quote:
We are graded as children, taught to compare and measure worthiness according to social standards, and our society supports those who have been taught to accept their weaknesses and limitations as prescribed by generations of programmed thinking.


Agreed, in general, but the word "accept" might be taken to imply that we have learned to live with those weaknesses in such a way as to sustain no damage from them. Manifestly, such a situation would be quite rare.

Follow the trail from TT's comment and the primary cause of most - if not all - dysfunctional behaviour might be revealed.
_________________________
There never was nothing.

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#46936 - 12/20/12 09:07 PM Re: ABOUT Our Response to School Shootings ...... [Re: Bill S.]
Tutor Turtle Offline
Megastar

Registered: 06/19/08
Posts: 1249
Loc: Everywhere and nowhere
Originally Posted By: Bill S.

Agreed, in general, but the word "accept" might be taken to imply that we have learned to live with those weaknesses in such a way as to sustain no damage from them.

Not what I think is the case. Acceptable ignorance due to the idea that the majority rules (democracy) seems to instill a beleif in helplessness in anyone that feels they can't change the world around them.
Originally Posted By: Bill S.
Manifestly, such a situation would be quite rare.
It's becoming more of an issue. Kids have committed suicide over the comments made on a facebook page. Kids create cliques and they hurl judgments at anyone who does not fit into their personal and idealistic realm of normalcy.
It's a disorder that is rapidly spreading into the adult community. Anyone not fitting a particular profile is judged and committed to the category of undesirable and a potential troublemaker.
Originally Posted By: Bill S.

Follow the trail from TT's comment and the primary cause of most - if not all - dysfunctional behaviour might be revealed.

Remember the Milgram experiement?
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#46939 - 12/20/12 10:06 PM Re: ABOUT Our Response to School Shootings ...... [Re: Tutor Turtle]
Bill S. Offline
Megastar

Registered: 08/20/10
Posts: 3570
Loc: Essex, UK
Interesting stats that may be relevant to this thread, but also link to Paul's comments in another thread.

http://discovermagazine.com/2012/apr/08-numbers-majority-minors-face-mental-illness#.UNOJsXf9Gtw

"82.5: The percentage of children and young adults who exhibit significant symptoms of mental illness at some point between the ages of 9 and 21. The startling statistic comes from a collaborative study conducted by Duke University and the North Carolina Department of Health and Human Services, which surveyed 1,420 children over 12 years beginning in 1993. Investigators checked in up to nine times to test for anxiety, depression, addiction, obsessive-compulsive &#8233;disorder, and more. The results: 61.1 percent met the diagnostic criteria for mental illness during at least one appointment, while an additional 21.4 percent had problems bad enough to interfere with school, social life, or family relations. Just like physical disease, mental illness affects nearly all of us at times, says study coauthor and psychologist E. Jane Costello. “We have to destigmatize the idea of mental disorder,” she says. “We shouldn’t be surprised that the brain has problems, just like the rest of the body.”"
_________________________
There never was nothing.

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#46940 - 12/20/12 10:36 PM Re: ABOUT Our Response to School Shootings ...... [Re: Revlgking]
Bill S. Offline
Megastar

Registered: 08/20/10
Posts: 3570
Loc: Essex, UK
…….and here’s another!

http://discovermagazine.com/2013/jan-feb/39-firestorm-over-new-psychiatry-bible#.UNORGHf9Gtx

Revising the DSM is always contentious because there are few objective tests and often no physical signs of mental disorders. But the debates surrounding the upcoming DSM-5, published by the American Psychiatric Association, were particularly intense. The changes "will dramatically raise the rates of mental disorders and mislabel normal people as psychiatrically sick," wrote psychiatrist Allen Frances, who was chairman of the committee for the previous edition.
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There never was nothing.

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