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#46800 - 12/15/12 09:33 PM ABOUT Our Response to School Shootings ......
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
The first thing my wife, Jean, said to me yesterday afternoon, when she got home, was: "Turn on the BREAKING NEWS I just heard on the car radio.

In summary, here is what I heard on my favourite TV News Channels:
Quote:
"As we have been saying, we do not have the details, yet, but we just got word that around 9:30 a.m. an unidentified and heavily-armed killer walked into a Catholic Elementary school, in Newport, Connecticut and started shooting. It is reported that he shot and killed a number of young children and also a number of adults ..."

Within minutes this news was on the media of the world.
====================================
Our Response to School Shootings?

Generally speaking, what DO we usually feel when we witness, or hear about, such tragic and unimaginable events?

Have you, personally, ever had, been through, or witnessed an event such as this? Would you rather not talk about it? Or would you like to talk about it?

Jonathan Kay--one of my favourite columnists at the National Post said that "our response will forever be a mix of agony and impotence." What is yours?

www.nationalpost.com/jonathankay


Edited by Revlgking (12/15/12 09:55 PM)
Edit Reason: Always helpful
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#46805 - 12/15/12 11:43 PM Re: ABOUT Our Response to School Shootings ...... [Re: Revlgking]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Registered: 06/19/08
Posts: 1249
Loc: Everywhere and nowhere
U.S. crime statistics 1960-2011
http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

Mass shooting happens every 5 days in America
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...ing-nation.html

Murder rates around the world 2004-2005
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2009/oct/13/homicide-rates-country-murder-data

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/oct/10/world-murder-rate-unodc

Five most dangerous countries on Earth
http://www.environmentalgraffiti.com/travel/news-five-most-lawless-lands-earth?image=0

"Society moves on, he says (- Criminologist James Allen Fox-) because of our ability to distance ourselves from the horror of the day, and because people believe that these tragedies are "one of the unfortunate prices we pay for our freedoms."
http://news.yahoo.com/no-rise-mass-killings-impact-huge-185700637.html

God must have a plan, eh Rev?
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#46823 - 12/16/12 03:00 PM Re: ABOUT Our Response to School Shootings ...... [Re: Tutor Turtle]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4135
It's tragic that these things happen.

every time something like this happens it makes me wonder
why it happened.

I wont talk about the people involved or their loss.
I will say that their loss must be overwhelming.
and only time will heal their pain.
_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#46825 - 12/16/12 03:46 PM Re: ABOUT Our Response to School Shootings ...... [Re: paul]
Tutor Turtle Offline
Megastar

Registered: 06/19/08
Posts: 1249
Loc: Everywhere and nowhere
Originally Posted By: paul

every time something like this happens it makes me wonder
why it happened.

Everything is connected.

Know thyself....
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#46865 - 12/18/12 03:36 AM Re: ABOUT Our Response to School Shootings ...... [Re: Revlgking]
Ellis Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
If the price of individual freedom leads to the death of these little children-- then that price is too high.

I cannot understand the almost religious fervour attached to a few words written in the 18th Century, responding to their times and conditions, and totally irrelevant to our own lives.

Little children are dying every week already because people find it so easy, in the US, to find guns to kill them with.

If this incident with 26 people dead does not make people agitate for gun control, nothing will. And sadly I don't think it will.

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#46866 - 12/18/12 04:28 AM Re: ABOUT Our Response to School Shootings ...... [Re: Revlgking]
Tutor Turtle Offline
Megastar

Registered: 06/19/08
Posts: 1249
Loc: Everywhere and nowhere
Originally Posted By: Revlgking
G’D--got so bored with being perfect that we decided to take some risks and have some fun....and here WE GO--WEEEEEEEEEEE! laugh
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#46867 - 12/18/12 04:35 AM Re: ABOUT Our Response to School Shootings ...... [Re: Revlgking]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
WHY AMERICANS LOVE THEIR GUNS

http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/insidestoryamericas/2012/03/20123277115372628.html

This article contains an excellent video and a lot of useful information. I find the comment about Switzerland very interesting. Maybe an American version of this could be designed, in harmony with the second amendment, that would be acceptable to those who want guns and who support the position of the NRA.
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#46868 - 12/18/12 05:39 AM Re: ABOUT Our Response to School Shootings ...... [Re: Ellis]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4135
Ellis

The American Peoples Guns are our deterrent that is to be used
in the event that we need to overthrow our government.

its in our constitution.

http://www.constitution.org/cons/constitu.htm

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

to remove these right's is to allow our government to become
our dictators.

when it is we the People who dictate to our government.

supposedly , through our political system.

hopefully we will never have the need to overthrow our government , but I can say this , there would be alot of
difficulty in taking arms from our citizens.

not only are our guns to protect us from our government
our guns these days might just be the major reason we have not been invaded by a foreign nation.

if the government chose to allow china ( for instance ) to
invade our soil with their army , the first thing that would happen is our military would join the people in our defense.

we would no longer have a military but we would have all the weapons.

we already have more weapons than our military has.

giving up our weapons would be like getting in the nazi cattle cars.

and we know it.

its sad that children are being killed using guns.

and I knew that the media would attempt to take advantage
of this tragedy to outlaw guns.

the problem is not our guns , its how our guns are managed.

if a child cannot get a gun , then that child cannot shoot
a gun.


_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#46870 - 12/18/12 07:16 AM Re: ABOUT Our Response to School Shootings ...... [Re: Revlgking]
Ellis Offline
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Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
I will refer to my earlier post and say that when your quote was written, Paul, in the context of the time, this was probably a valid idea. The colonists who were now the leaders of the new nation were terrified that the Europeans (read British) would return and seize power. So the fear was not against their neighbour, or their leaders but against a possible foreign power. At that time this was a fair assumption so they suggested that an armed civilian militia was a good idea.

The guns of the time were as lethal as today if you were hit by a bullet from one, but they were slow to load, hard to aim with and were only able, at best to manage to fire about 3 or 4 bullets a minute. I know nothing about guns but even I know that now, with an automatic weapon a non-stop spray of bullets is possible. Random firing produces horrific death tolls- such as 20 6-year-olds. No civilian needs those weapons.

Now the government thing. A democratic government is elected by the people to represent them. Sometimes the party you favour is not elected by the majority, and this is the strength of the system. Next time there is an election they can be peacefully removed--- no rioting, no need for guns etc,. Perhaps what is needed is a look at why it is that America seems to have lost faith in democracy, and does not trust the system to provide an accurate representation of the population's wishes. The government is 'you', it represents you and if people do not vote how can there be fair government.

Reaching for the gun and starting a war is not stable government, and countries where that happens are not ones where anyone wants to live. Safety does not lie in a gun --- it lies in strong representation, and clear, achievable goals, and the concept of freedom has to allow for many opinions to flourish. Shooting people does not allow for any of that and eventually everyone's reactions are blunted, and children carry the cost.

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#46871 - 12/18/12 02:46 PM Re: ABOUT Our Response to School Shootings ...... [Re: paul]
Bill Offline
Megastar

Registered: 12/31/10
Posts: 1858
Loc: Oklahoma, USA
Originally Posted By: Paul
not only are our guns to protect us from our government
our guns these days might just be the major reason we have not been invaded by a foreign nation.

And of course the fact that we are separated by wide stretches of ocean on both the East and West from other countries. It would have been hard for anybody to invade us across an ocean. If you have to transport all of your men and materials across an ocean then invasion is a problem. And then we got to big and rich for anybody to try.

The War of 1812 hardly counts. Britain did invade, but they didn't really try to occupy the country, and they were also fighting Napoleon Bonaparte at the same time.

Bill Gill
_________________________
C is not the speed of light in a vacuum.
C is the universal speed limit.

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#46873 - 12/18/12 03:13 PM Re: ABOUT Our Response to School Shootings ...... [Re: Revlgking]
Neohippy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/04/12
Posts: 104
Loc: Canada
I don't think it's necessarily a problem with too many guns.
Canada has 0.34 guns per person and 9 people per square kilometer.
USA has 0.89 guns per person and 84 people per square kilometer.

I think it's proximity. If I were to wander around the USA for any length of time... Being surrounded all the time, bumping and jostling... I'd wanna shoot someone too.

Regardless, what pisses me off the most; is the blame game.

Why blame the shooter, when you can blame his mother? Or his 'disorder'? Or his religion? Or any number of totally bull$#!t excuses.

Blaming guns for all the deaths, is like blaming printing presses for all the books.

Guns don't kill people. People kill people. Sometimes people kill with no reason. Sometimes people are hired, trained, and sent to other countries to kill innocent people. A killer is a killer is a killer.

Canadian here with 5 guns to my name. Never killed a human being.

Also, 1812 does count, 'cause the white house burned. Brits did very little, but them metis and natives, they went sick house on the americans. That portion is usually left out of history books, as it tends to be a bit gory, and psychotic. Also, they didn't use very many guns in the invasion. They crept in the night, and slaughtered men women and children as they slept.

I don't think USA has been invaded for one simple reason: Where's the profit?
USA has pretty well nothing other countries desire. Even the steel industry that was world renowned is dead. Made in america is pretty well a joke to the rest of the world. If you're not into being a corporate shill making 10x what you're worth, there's not much draw. Canada is much the same, but at least we have raw resources.
There ya go, why invade USA, when you can invade Canada?
More space, more resources, less resistance... crap. I for one welcome our new asian overlords...
_________________________
Laziness breeds innovation

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#46875 - 12/18/12 03:54 PM Re: ABOUT Our Response to School Shootings ...... [Re: Neohippy]
Tutor Turtle Offline
Megastar

Registered: 06/19/08
Posts: 1249
Loc: Everywhere and nowhere
I like this guy...
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#46876 - 12/18/12 04:21 PM Re: ABOUT Our Response to School Shootings ...... [Re: Tutor Turtle]
Tutor Turtle Offline
Megastar

Registered: 06/19/08
Posts: 1249
Loc: Everywhere and nowhere
http://www.forbes.com/sites/matthewherper/2012/12/16/searching-for-hard-data-on-guns-and-violence/

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The top five causes of death in the United States, in order, are tobacco, alcohol, medical malpractice, traffic and firearms. According to JAMA, doctors kill more people than auto accidents and guns.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
BettyJean Downing Kling: The Majority United

Doctors : * Statistics courtesy of U.S. Dept of Health and Human Services.

1-The number of physicians in the United States is 700,000.
2-Accidental deaths caused by Physicians per year are 120,000.
3-Accidental deaths per physician is 0.171

Guns: *Statistics courtesy of FBI

1-The number of gun owners in the United States is 80,000,000. (Yes, thatís 80 million)
2-The number of accidental gun deaths per year, all age groups, is 1,500.
3-The number of accidental deaths per gun owner is .0000188

Statistically: Doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners.

http://freemenow.wordpress.com/2011/12/27/guns-vs-doctors-hammers-knives-bats-and-fists/


Statistically speaking... Going after the guns is starting at the bottom of the list.
If we work our way up, we will need to get rid of, or address, the problems of Automobiles as a killer greater than guns, then go after the doctors, then alchohol, and finally tobacco.

IF we get rid of all of those things we should be just fine.
crazy
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#46877 - 12/18/12 04:43 PM Re: ABOUT Our Response to School Shootings ...... [Re: Tutor Turtle]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4135
TT , that was to the point.

in the State of Georgia in the U.S. there is a city that has

mandatory gun laws.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kennesaw,_Georgia

25 years since the gun law was imposed , just one murder (2003).

http://www.wnd.com/2007/04/41196/




we have been building prison after prison in the U.S. and
prisons are becoming an industry , taking guns away would ensure the profitability of this new industry the above clearly shows that.

if it were mandated that every household in the U.S. were required
to have a gun , the crime rate in the U.S. would tumble.

I can see how this might also reduce the number of
doctors accidents per year.

given time.


Ellis, its illegal to own an automatic weapon in the U.S.
because they waste valuable bullets and bullets are expensive
so as a economic measure we do not allow the general public to
purchase automatic weapons , this has resulted in better aiming
accuracy.

we can get a license to own and operate automatic weapons
but they are very expensive and once again waste valuable bullets
and aiming time.

we are focusing on a standoffish approach to defense vs close
quarter combat where the enemy must consider every tree or rock or hole in the ground to be a threat to their being.


they can waste all the bullets they want
with automatic weapons, we'll dig the lead out of the trees.

I believe that in a close quarters combat situation
a couple of shotgun's with tactically shortened barrel's would be the preferred weapon of choice.

unless in a selective targeting scenario where the targeting of citizens must be avoided.

as the goal would be to quickly and effectively remove combatants from the immediate area , such as
building's , house's, businesses , encampment's , of course the element
of surprise would also come into play.

needless to say the overwatch ( sniper ) units would clean up any exposed combatant's that pose an immediate threat to
the friendly force's.

I know it seem's harsh to think this way to some people , but
to other's it is the only way we should think.

the history of the world give's proof that the best defense
is the best offence.

and our best defense is our citizens and their weapons.




Edited by paul (12/18/12 06:34 PM)
Edit Reason: 1 murder in 2003
_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#46878 - 12/18/12 06:28 PM Re: ABOUT Our Response to School Shootings ...... [Re: Ellis]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4135
England's gun control = more crime

crime has almost doubled in England since gun control was initiated.

they must also have a large prison industry.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1223193/Culture-violence-Gun-crime-goes-89-decade.html

Quote:
The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year - a rise of 89 per cent.
In some parts of the country, the number of offences has increased more than five-fold.
In eighteen police areas, gun crime at least doubled.
The statistic will fuel fears that the police are struggling to contain gang-related violence, in which the carrying of a firearm has become increasingly common place.
_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#46884 - 12/18/12 10:33 PM Re: ABOUT Our Response to School Shootings ...... [Re: Revlgking]
Bill S. Offline
Megastar

Registered: 08/20/10
Posts: 3570
Loc: Essex, UK
Itís interesting that the response to the shooting has taken the form of a discussion about gun control.

Guns donít kill people! People kill people!

Perhaps we should be asking what is happening in society that leads to tragic events like this.

What are our leaders (political, social and religious) doing.
What are our teachers doing?
Above all, what are our parents doing?

Whatever it is we are doing it is having some dreadful results.

Whatever we are doing is much the same as that which the generations before us did.

Itís time we made a change, and we are unlikely to make that change by blaming guns, knives, alcohol, video games or even money for the dreadful things that people do to people.
_________________________
There never was nothing.

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#46885 - 12/18/12 10:41 PM Re: ABOUT Our Response to School Shootings ...... [Re: Revlgking]
Bill S. Offline
Megastar

Registered: 08/20/10
Posts: 3570
Loc: Essex, UK
Neohippy, I apologise! Thanks to an interruption, I had missed part of your post, only on re-reading it did I realise I had used your "guns don't kill people......"

What is it they say about great minds? smile
_________________________
There never was nothing.

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#46886 - 12/18/12 10:57 PM Re: ABOUT Our Response to School Shootings ...... [Re: paul]
Bill S. Offline
Megastar

Registered: 08/20/10
Posts: 3570
Loc: Essex, UK
Paul, using up to date stats might be better than dredging up 2009 figures which the Daily Mail was using as right wing propaganda.

The latest quarterly crime statistics for England and Wales for the period to September 2011 were released in January 2012.

Provisional figures show that 6,285 firearm offences were recorded by the police in the year to September 2011, accounting for 0.2% of all recorded crime. There was a 19% fall in firearm offences in the year to September 2011, compared to the previous year.

www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/sn01940.pdf
_________________________
There never was nothing.

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#46887 - 12/18/12 11:00 PM Re: ABOUT Our Response to School Shootings ...... [Re: Revlgking]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
THANKS, EVERYONE! FOR THE VERY VALUABLE AND INTERESTING DIALOGUE.

My personal experience with guns?

I grew up in the 1930's, in a family of 8--a father, mother, 3 girls and 5 boys (I was #5). We owned two guns. One gun was a single-barreled shot gun. The other was a single-barreled 22 rifle.

Because of my gun-shy nature, I never became hunter. I left that to my older brothers. But I enjoyed going on hunting trips with them. My job? I helped with the cleaning of the guns and of the game.

Of course, in NL there was lots of fish, but because grassland was scarce, fresh meat was very expensive. Few, if any, had refrigeration. It was because of this that guns were needed to quickly kill any domestic animals and birds being raised--any goats, sheep, pigs, geese, ducks and chicken. A few had cattle--and getting them ready for the table. In addition, there was wild game--Moose, Caribou, deer, seals, rabbits and birds. Thus guns were essential to help maintain our very modest standard of living on www.bellisland.net

NOT ONE MURDER IN ALL ITS HISTORY
Interestingly, while I lived on BI, the population got to be at least 10,000. This including about 2,100 rough and ready iron-ore miners. But, though there was at least one gun in every family, as of now, not one death on BI was caused by a gun-related murder.

However, over the years there have been gun, knife, snowmobile and rock-related accidents. One woman I knew lost an arm in a gun-related accident, in her own kitchen; a close contemporary of mine was killed by a rock that fell from a cliff we all climbed at one time or another; a young man died of an accidental, self-inflicted gun accident while mooring his boat; a nephew of mine (18) lost his life when he accidentally fell on a knife. Carelessly, in the process of cleaning out his father's boat, perhaps without thinking, he put the knife in his pocket. And another nephew lost his life driving his new snowmobile, one which he had just received as a Christmas present.

Me? Of course, I am still here. But I have had several close calls over the years. One happened when I was about 11, or 12 at the most. One that I remember, clearly, happened on a beautiful day in the Spring of 1942 when--not long after I had heard the loud squeals of a neighbour's pig--I was in the process of putting some whitewash on our fence.

It was not long after that I heard the familiar CRACK! CRACK! CRACK! ... sounds of a 22 rifle. Within inches from my head the slugs of several 22 bullets hit the fence with a ZIP!ZIP!ZIP! and a THUD!THUD!THUD!... When I turned around, the source of the sounds soon became clear to me. They came from the rifle of our neighbour, Jack, who lived just up the hill from our house. Generally speaking, the Kings thought of Jack, a widower, as a good neighbour.

Immediately, I dropped what I was doing, went in the house and told my father and brother, who happened to be home, what had happened. They came out and examined the fence and found several slugs. Then the three of us paid Jack a visit--minus recriminating attack.

Because by now Jack had sobered up, somewhat, my father and brother had no problem getting Jack to understand that the shots had come from his rifle and how fortunate it was that a tragedy had been avoided.

Jack readily told us what happened. Also, he openly admitted, and apologized, that he and his friend had both had more that one drink when, with the help of a 22 rifle and knife, they killed the pig, put it in scalding-hot water and then hung it on a tripod in the backyard to finish draining the blood.

It was the smell of blood that triggered the attention of some of the cats in the neighbourhood. And it was the cats that Jack had in mind when he pulled the trigger.

The good news is: The cats survived; I survived; pork was shared; apologies were made; lessons were learned and the neighbourhood was kept in tact.



Edited by Revlgking (12/19/12 01:39 AM)
Edit Reason: Always helpful
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#46895 - 12/19/12 02:17 AM Re: ABOUT Our Response to School Shootings ...... [Re: Revlgking]
Tutor Turtle Offline
Megastar

Registered: 06/19/08
Posts: 1249
Loc: Everywhere and nowhere
So in essence you started this thread to talk about personal memories.... 'Cause the killing of children inspires you to talk about yourself?
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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