Science a GoGo's Home Page Forums General Discussion Not-Quite-Science Forum Reply to Paul re Neat Experiment

I am not even into religion and I have a much more basic problem the Torah is not the bible a FACT that Paul must know.

Remember I have had alot of Jewish and Muslim interaction over my life and if you start calling the Bible the Torah you will start a war and for once not from me :-)

Hi Neo. Pleased to meet you and welcome aboard.

I can't help being very curious about any alternatives to the Big Bang. Could you "expand" on that a little bit?

Perhaps you could start a new science based thread if you think it's appropriate.

Thanks,

We were just discussing Genesis and who wrote Genesis.

however the Tora consist of the first 5 Books of the Bible
written by Moses.

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm

Again you would start a war stating that.

The bible contains 5 chapters of a heavily translated version of what the Torah in the Tanakh says (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanakh).

Ask someone of Jewish faith to tell you the story of Noah.

Ask someone of the Islamic faith to tell you the story of Noah.

Perhaps do some reading on its background
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah


To illustrate the problem in your link http://www.beingjewish.com/mesorah/ageoftorah.html



I know you are not Jewish so I suspect you are going to have some problems with your own link ... so who wrote Genesis and who's word is it?

See the problem to Jewish, genesis is NOT the literal WORD OF GOD and it is a interpretive work where you fundementalists turn genesis into a literal word of god translation. How the Torah chapters sudenly becomes the literal WORD OF GOD is lost on me I have found no christian ever able to explain that one.

To a Jew you christians take part of there religous books change the author and history and claim it as the basis of your faith and god and thus wars start :-)

As an aside as a non religious person it amazes me that 3 religions that have origins around the same stories in Jewish, Christians and Muslims can have such trouble with each other.

I suppose your refering to the 5 BOOKS that Moses wrote.
the Tora and the Tanakh are not the same.
the Tora is the first five Books of Moses.




Orac , the word Hashem is used on the page I linked to
because the Word God is considered too holy to use in text.

so God gave the instruction's to Moses.

Moses wrote Genesis.

God instructed Moses what he should write.



I know , its strange.

also , I think your making too big of a deal out of it saying
that this discussion would start a war.

[quote=paul
so God gave the instruction's to Moses.

Moses wrote Genesis.
[/quote]

Only if you are Christian that is total garbage if you are jewish.

The link you gave was Jewish thats why it is worded the way it is and it means exactly what it says hence the www.beingjewish.com :-)

It is one of the problems I am having in my studying of Christianity the origins of the bible is well shall we say problematic with no distinct link.

Jewish can trace there beliefs directly back to the Torah.
Islam can trace there beliefs directly back to the Quran.

The Quran and Torah cross reference each other the Christian bible has no direct history that I can find would you care to explain it to me? I am not picking on religions here I believe I am stating facts as per my stidying that Rev K has been encouraging me to do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah

But it is a translation in oral and teaching form it is not intended to be taken literally.

If you doubt me ask anyone of the jewish faith.

It is why the jewish don't struggle with science in this matter they don't take it literally.

I guess what I am struggling with is you are literally interpretting writings of the jews in a way the jewish don't even take them

Google "Do the Jews believe the story of creation in Genesis is the literal truth"

Teaching = don't take it seriously , were just kidding , really don't bother remembering this stuff its not to be taken literally.

your a teacher , is that the way you think of the things you teach?

I am taking it in the manner those who directly descend from the Torah say the item is to be translated nothing more nothing less.

When I write something to teach someone and tell them I mean "this" I mean "this" unless I am being sarcastic or telling a fable or proverb .... context is everything.

What I am struggling with is some Christians (I realize its not all) putting a slant on a jewish document and history and I am not trying to offend here but thats what you are doing to me.

Have you ever asked a jewish faith person to explain their meaning of genesis, Paul?

You believe everything you read in history books?

Anyway, the question I raised was how you could say with such certainty that Moses wrote the first five books of the OT.

in other words translated correctly , not adding to it , or subtracting from it.



Moses did not state that he was telling a fable.
and you used the word proverb , I would use the word summary.
but not as if His summary was a fable.



here is a translated version of the Hebrew Bible.

there are differences between the version on the vatican web site.

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0101.htm

Genesis
Chapter 1

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 Now the earth was unformed and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the spirit of God hovered over the face of the waters. 3 And God said: 'Let there be light.' And there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day. {P}

6 And God said: 'Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.' 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day. {P}

9 And God said: 'Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear.' And it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of the waters called He Seas; and God saw that it was good. 11 And God said: 'Let the earth put forth grass, herb yielding seed, and fruit-tree bearing fruit after its kind, wherein is the seed thereof, upon the earth.' And it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, herb yielding seed after its kind, and tree bearing fruit, wherein is the seed thereof, after its kind; and God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening and there was morning, a third day. {P}

14 And God said: 'Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years; 15 and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth.' And it was so. 16 And God made the two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night; and the stars. 17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, 18 and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness; and God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening and there was morning, a fourth day. {P}

20 And God said: 'Let the waters swarm with swarms of living creatures, and let fowl fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.' 21 And God created the great sea-monsters, and every living creature that creepeth, wherewith the waters swarmed, after its kind, and every winged fowl after its kind; and God saw that it was good. 22 And God blessed them, saying: 'Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.' 23 And there was evening and there was morning, a fifth day. {P}

24 And God said: 'Let the earth bring forth the living creature after its kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after its kind.' And it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth after its kind, and the cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the ground after its kind; and God saw that it was good. 26 And God said: 'Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.' 27 And God created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him; male and female created He them. 28 And God blessed them; and God said unto them: 'Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that creepeth upon the earth.' 29 And God said: 'Behold, I have given you every herb yielding seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed--to you it shall be for food; 30 and to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is a living soul, [I have given] every green herb for food.' And it was so. 31 And God saw every thing that He had made, and, behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day. {P}


so we have two slightly different version's that for the most
part have the same meanings.

example
Hebrew , the Spirit of God hovered
Catholic , a wind from God blew
for emphasis
KJV , the Spirit of God moved



I'm not sure why someone such as yourself would be offended.
as you clearly have shown no respect nor regard for any of the religion's that we are discussing.

and I think I have shown that , unless you consider what I
have shown to be incorrect.

history shows that Moses wrote the first 5 Book's of the OT.

The jewish whose history and legacy this is do .. and thats the point ... fables don't start out saying this is a fable they start out "once upon a time" or "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth"

Lets take this to a modern American situation to show you the issue. How do you think the Native Indians would feel if I started telling them how they should read and interpret their history and folklore.

Thats the issue for me what you are doing is almost offensive and I can see why the jewish have issues with some christians.

I realise there are different versions of the text etc but you keep ignoring the issue that these are the jewish scriptures and the Torah was passed down in the jewish community.

You keep avoiding giving me a straight answer from you on how in your belief they became part of the Christian bible. It's a simple question and should not be that hard to answer, I can't see how it happens from my reading so far and there are so many versions of Christianity I can't get a standard answer.



How do you know if I have any respect or regard? I am simply asking you questions and explaining my problems and misgivings, it is you who is creating motive.

My motive in this excercise is dead simple I am trying to work out how fundementalist Christians believe the Old Testament is a literal work because the logic escapes me at the moment how anyone could construct that belief. If you told me the Jews stole the work or something it might sort of make sense but without some explaination I can't get from a jewish book to christianity.

The Latter Day Saints for example have there sacred book which bridges gaps and I can see how the basics work. The more liberal Christian groups note they inherit the old testament from the jewish etc and they concentrate more on the new testament.

Since there has been considerable discussion here about who wrote Genesis I went off and did a little (a very little) research. I jumped straight into "Asimov's Guide to the Bible: The Old Testament" by Isaac Asimov. Asimov is careful to say that this is not original research on his part, it comes from his study of a great many sources. And for full disclosure Asimov is a scientist and an atheist, in addition to being a science fiction author.

Here is what he has to say about the matter.



Bill Gill

Belief has nothing to do with the calendar. AD and BC were added half a millennium later, because of people like you. The desire, nay, the NEED to substantiate a belief regardless of the facts.
"I know! Let's say Christ was born at year zero! If any of the unwashed masses disagree, burn them as heathens! God will love it!"
How is it that Jesus wasn't written about for that long, but they somehow KNOW what happened? Especially when these are times when most of the population can't read, let alone record events that are not yet considered of any importance?
Maybe, perhaps... stories, and songs? That may, just maybe, have been embellished by some bards looking to get a warm bed and hot food in exchange for an entertaining story?

And you say Moses wrote the books in 1500 BC? That's great, except, it was not dictated by god. It was a compilation of oral history. Songs, poems, et cetera. And those are totally reliable. Kinda like how some crazy 'mericans leave out 'gay', and 'pipe' in some Christmas songs now. Does that mean we take the current versions of these songs as gospel? Well, no, but that's because we are logical, intelligent people... Well... Some.

So what happened to the writings before 1500BC? Greek, Babylonian?

For the record, the new testament took 300 years to write, plenty of room for 'interpretation'. The old testament was a compilation of well loved folk lore spanning 1000 years.

Also, you spelled the name of your lord and saviour wrong, he's gonna be pissed.

And so you know... Today is the first day of the 3 day death of the sun god. He will be resurrected, indicating the coming of spring. Funny how the birth of C'h'rist, coincides with the solstice, and the sun remaining level for 3 days, then 'rising' again? But that's all coincidence... not a rehashing of old tales at all.

But I say all this, only because I have not limited my life to studying only one book or religion, but many. As you should too.I don't know it all, but hot damn, I do love learning as much as I can.

According to you though, history started 6000ish years ago, and that is easily proven false with... wait for it...

SCIENCE!

But you don't believe in that either so... Yeah. Troll post again I guess. Jeebus Cripes Paul, I do say, you seem to bring out the worst in me. I like you, you give me a desire to learn so I don't end up like... Bah! I won't do it. I won't bite, again... maybe.

Thanks Bill



or thanks Isaac Asimov since that is who you have trusted
to give you the answer to Bill S's question.

as for Orac and NoeHippy , I have said many times that I
didn't want to discuss religion on a science discussion forum ,
it is the non believers that seem to want to discuss religion.

so if you would like to discuss between yourselves have at it
I'm not wasting any more time on it because its a non issue
here on a science forum.

needless to say , if you and orac were in front of me right now
I would find out just how bad that would really be.

right?

And all I was trying to do is understand your religion and beliefs?

I understand the history of islamic beliefs, I understand the history of jewish beliefs, I understand the history of Latter Day Saints, I understand some history of some Christian groups beliefs and I was simply trying to add understanding of history of your beliefs.

I am not sure why I cause you issues but if you don't want to discuss your beliefs it's not a problem, don't.

I should add you started the discussion and brought religion into the discussion so stop blaming us




If you don't want to discuss religion don't bring it into the discussion and we won't either, I am happy to respect each other.