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paul #47718 01/20/13 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted By: paul

ok, thats where I leave this discussion , because the reason
I was in the discussion was to try and understand QM.

I find no possible reason to want to learn anything that claims
that everything is virtual ( not real ) so you guys enjoy the
discussion on fantasy.


No problem Paul ... I did warn you that the truth was going to shock you that your world has never been solid even under classic science. That was one of the problems with the Bohr Atomic model it ended with no way to stop people pushing atoms inside each other with then needed to invoke QM anyhow smile

Last edited by Orac; 01/20/13 09:08 AM.

I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.
.
Orac #47721 01/20/13 06:46 PM
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Quote:
No problem Paul ... I did warn you that the truth was going to shock you that your world has never been solid even under classic science.


I'm not shocked at all orac.
in fact I was thinking that you would say something like that
because in order for QM to work it must spout lies and harbor
fantasy.

it is now my opinion that when someone claim's that QM predict's
anything it is because QM can claim thing's like that because it
is a liar , so it just makes up another lie.

QM takes a naturally occurring event or process then creates
a fantasy explanation of the event because QM can do that
because it is such a liar and those who promote it are liars.

further more.

If I do study QM further , I already know that QM is a rube , therefore it must also use the same type of fantasy math that
GR SR etc uses ( the math that the einstonedians use ) so I
will be on the lookout for that type of mathematical trickery.

you can say its not trickery , but if you invent math to prove
a event or process , that math is trickery.

and that is what the quantummians and einstonedians do.

but don't let me put a scuffell in your skirt after all
everything is virtual in your world , so the word virtual
in your world must represent the real things.

so I must be a virtual person.

and if I put a scuffell in your skirt then it would be a virtual scuffell to you.

right?


I truly believe that we are in real trouble because the
people who believe this stuff actually think it has value.


3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.
paul #47723 01/21/13 01:00 AM
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Originally Posted By: paul

so I must be a virtual person.


You are indeed a virtual person ... the question you refuse to face is can something real be built out of some virtual ... a rainbow gives you the answer.

The bit that isn't lost in all this is you as a religious person is troubled by this stuff ... your god said he made the universe out of nothing science actually agrees, it's usually the non believers who struggle with this stuff smile


Originally Posted By: paul

I truly believe that we are in real trouble because the
people who believe this stuff actually think it has value.


The people who believe in this stuff made your computer and almost everything that you use in your life and it's not our values that are causing problems it's societies values, where children get killed going to school and we have a society that feels dislocated and alienated ... I believe that is religions sphere called morals and social justice.

Do a pole of pedafiles, murderers and the most hardened criminals and I doubt there are many that even know anything about QM. Probably even going wider to science backgrounds the numbers won't increase that much. Try asking how many are religious and its scary the prisons are full of them smile

So perhaps before you religious types start worrying about what science believes you might want to put your own believers in order ... I believe it was put to you of faith this way "Am I my brother's keeper".

I am ambivalent about your views on science you understand so little of it that you are in no position to make any judgement and as I do not wish to turn this into a troll slanging match I will stop there.

Last edited by Orac; 01/21/13 01:30 AM.

I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.
Orac #47726 01/21/13 01:56 AM
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Lubos has a timely article that fits in at this point in the discussion called "Mapping all possible physical theories"

http://motls.blogspot.com.au/2013/01/mapping-all-possible-physical-theories.html

Quote:

But there are many more dead ends in the world. And many beautiful and important oases that may remain unexploited by tourists if most tourists spend most of their time in deserts and cesspools.

Last edited by Orac; 01/21/13 06:03 AM.

I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.
Orac #47729 01/21/13 03:37 AM
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3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.
paul #47730 01/21/13 05:01 AM
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Haha thats funny since thats on an electronic media.

THE SWEET IRONIC HUMOUR ... LOL


So all you religious nutters need to go and turn off all your electronic devices built on QM and become like the amish.

Now off you go Paul you can't use a computer anymore because QM is wrong.


YOU DO SEE THE PROBLEM IN TRYING TO DENY QM .... YOU ARE USING IT .... ROFL.


Maybe the Amish are right and this is all the work of the devil and man he has a wicked sense of humor because you are just a poor sinner doomed to hell like the rest of us Paul laugh

Last edited by Orac; 01/21/13 05:16 AM.

I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.
Orac #47735 01/21/13 05:38 PM
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Quote:
The phrase "quantum mechanics" was first used in Max Born's 1924 paper "Zur Quantenmechanik". In the years to follow, this theoretical basis slowly began to be applied to chemical structure, reactivity, and bonding.


Quote:
solid-state electronics goes back
to the invention by Ferdinand Braun of the solid-state rectifier
in 1874. That was a full 73 years before the discovery of the
transistor. His work centered around the solid-state rectifier
using a point contact based on lead sulfide


nobody at bell labs used quantum mechanics to DISCOVER the
transistor , in fact the transistor was not even being researched
the transistor was a discovery that was found while they were researching something else.
http://classes.soe.ucsc.edu/ee171/Winter06/notes/transistor.pdf

Quote:
When one reads about the invention of the transistor
one cannot help but note that the work of Bardeen and Brattain
was truly a discovery not an invention. When they discovered
transistor action, they were investigating the nature of surface
states and ways to reduce their presence


but later on the Quantummians laid claim to the invention of the
transitor them being such LIARS and STORY TELLERS.

What a horde of RUBES!!!

you Orac will believe anything except reality

so Orac, should I stop using this computer because
QM had absolutely nothing to do with its invention, furthemore hitherto and thus since you now know the rest of the story ( real truth (not virtual truth))
should you continue to use REAL things made by REAL people?

given that you know that REAL THINGS DO NOT EXIST...

I'd rather be a Real Amish than a Rube Quantummyish.


from what I can tell about the early days of electronics
it was mostly hit or miss , trial and error , there was no QM book telling the scientist how to find a way to accomplish their goals but there was a brief history of past discoveries and accomplishments that helped them to meet their goals.

they didn't use quantum mechanics , quantum mechanics used them.

I found a interesting discussion on scientific american.
excerpts...

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=everyday-quantum-physics

Quote:
Nobody in Bell's Lab (which invented the transistor) knew a thing about Quantum Mechanics! After the invention was done theoretical physicists created "Solid State" curriculum to "adapt" the very adaptable Quantum Theory to the new facts. As for the "laser" Quantum theorists
predicted the "maser" and wasted a lot of taxpayers money. Meanwhile technologists developed the laser into what is today's products.


Quote:
My vague recollection was that Texas Instruments invented the transistor, so I consulted wikipedia. It states that Physicist Julius Edgar Lilienfeld filed the first patent for a transistor in Canada in 1925. Bell Labs patented the the transistor in the U.S. in 1947. The first silicon transistor was produced by Texas Instruments in 1954. It's worth a read.

I think though that you are essentially correct in asserting that quantum theory has had little if anything to do with technological developments - most often just the opposite.



Quote:
If I remember correctly, the guy that invented the transistor died pennyless, of a disease that he could not afford the treatment for. Isn't capitalism wonderful?


we may find that QM is the only thing that truly is virtual.







3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.
Bill S. #47738 01/21/13 10:46 PM
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As the OP of this thread I had hoped to maintain a reasonable degree of scientific discussion. It grieves me to see it circling the drain once again.

(Can anyone recommend a good scientific discussion forum.)

Perhaps it's up to us - the posters - to avoid being drawn towards the drain!

What happens if we all decline to post personal attacks, and just ignore anyone who can't manage to maintain a basic level of courtesy?


There never was nothing.
Bill S. #47742 01/21/13 11:40 PM
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Originally Posted By: Bill S.

Perhaps it's up to us - the posters - to avoid being drawn towards the drain!

What happens if we all decline to post personal attacks, and just ignore anyone who can't manage to maintain a basic level of courtesy?

That is a good idea. There is an old internet piece of wisdom.

Don't feed the trolls.

Orac - that means you too. You aren't helping any.

If we would all do that we might be able to have a decent discussion of actual science.

Bill Gill


C is not the speed of light in a vacuum.
C is the universal speed limit.
Bill S. #47743 01/21/13 11:48 PM
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Quote:
As the OP of this thread I had hoped to maintain a reasonable degree of scientific discussion. It grieves me to see it circling the drain once again.


I don't see it that way Bill s , If I were merely an observer of
the thread I would be interested in the facts not just the jargon.

I think me and orac are covering some important ground here in
the thread that some of the readers may consider useful information.

but they never really do comment on much , so we just have
to wade through it without their opinion.

we'll always have Bill Gill here to remind us that they are real and not some QM virtuality when he Gentle Readers them , so that's something at least, I suppose.

I must admit that I look forward to reading orac's next post
as he rants about religion as if that will somehow sway opinion in his favor.

laugh








3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.
Bill #47744 01/21/13 11:54 PM
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Quote:
If we would all do that we might be able to have a decent discussion of actual science.


how would you accomplish that?

Quote:
actual science


what does that mean these days?


3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.
Bill #47745 01/22/13 12:06 AM
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Originally Posted By: Bill


Orac - that means you too. You aren't helping any.

If we would all do that we might be able to have a decent discussion of actual science.

Bill Gill


Oh I do enjoy a good flame war you take a boys fun away smile

We actually had a reasonable discussion going there for a while even interesting what the troll had to say so perhaps the moderators may see if they controlled things a little better we could all enoy better discussions.


I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.
Orac #47747 01/22/13 12:15 AM
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what happened to your transistor orac?

and all the modern marvels that are the result of QM.

where are they now?

Quote:
Oh I do enjoy a good flame war you take a boys fun away


I agree , orac.

if you could somehow carry on a discussion without your
boasting about QM and how great it is ( not really )
and stop your religious flaming tactics , we might be able
to have a discussion , if you weren't so bigheaded about things that are obvious frauds.




3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.
paul #47748 01/22/13 12:28 AM
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As this is Bill.S thread I will respect his wishes smile


I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.
Orac #47749 01/22/13 02:30 AM
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OK


3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.
paul #47751 01/22/13 02:55 AM
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Quote:
I think me and orac are covering some important ground here in the thread that some of the readers may consider useful information.


Judging by the relatively small number of regular posters I would say that the majority of those who are looking for some serious discussion are not easily convinced that referring to one another as liars, rubes, hosers and religious nuts constitutes useful information.

OK, the moderation is lenient, but but trying to blame the mods for the stuff we post is a cop-out. Surely we are all adults and are responsible for what we post.


There never was nothing.
Bill S. #47753 01/22/13 11:09 AM
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The forum is dead I agree unfortunately the reason for that is almost solely moderation and behaviour such as Paul and mine shouldn't be tolerated I totally agree.

Anyone who is seriously interested in science comes into this garbage takes one look and walks away ... that might give you a clue why I behave the way I do (think about it) smile

Look at the left panel for top posters .... says it all.

You can't fix the problem by behaving well because you can't even get a reasonable discussion running, I tried that in the beginning and it failed dismally. So in the end if posters want a "flame war" I am more than happy to engage because thats about all you can discuss on this forum.

Whats funny is you often see the same posters for example Preearth he has been banned on many of the sites I participate on. Socratus is banned from all the same ones from memory.

They bleat and carry on about the bans but the forum rules are quite specific and there so dicussions can actually take place.
If you don't like the rules make your own site.

Preearth tried that tactic and it barely has 40 posts in two years, and half of that is preearth himself laugh

http://www.preearth.net/phpBB3/index.php?sid=4c4e0c3673de56363e235570f1872483

The reason is people interested in science don't want to wade thru piles of garbage and will avoid it like the plague.

That in a nutshell is why the forum is almost dead.

My holiday is coming to an end and I have booked the optical lab for next week and start work the following week so I will be less active on the site .... there is a bonus for you smile

Last edited by Orac; 01/22/13 11:13 AM.

I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.
Orac #47757 01/22/13 05:03 PM
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Quote:
behaviour such as Paul and mine


I don't think my behavior is quite as bad as your behavior, oracnid.

just go back and re-read the post where you engaged in flaming
of religion because you became stuck in science and flaming tactics was your only means of rebuttal.

which really is a childish thing to do.

if you cant provide a scientific rebuttal to a post you
shouldn't begin flaming anything else due to your lack of
ability, after all that lack of ability is not the fault of
religion or anything else.

maybe in the future you will not be so quick to claim that
QM is why we have all the technological advances that we now
have.



3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.
Bill S. #47758 01/22/13 05:34 PM
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Orac, much of what you say is absolutely right, but I still think that we, the posters, can set the tone for our discussions simply by ignoring any trolling.

I accept my own part in encouraging some of the unhelpful posting. My only excuse being that I have entertained hopes of eliciting something of value from the mire, and that I genuinely believe that those who hold views that are non-standard, may be worth hearing.

Both on and off SAGG I was strongly advised to give up on the Mansfield discussions. There were two reasons why I persisted longer than perhaps I should have done. One was the re-kindling of my long dormant interest in geology, and the other was my admiration for Warren Carey.

I believe that Carey's memory deserves better than to be immured by the rag-bag of parasitic crackpots who pick over the carrion of his life's work seeking their own aggrandisement.

There was a time when I enjoyed argument for its own sake; I think I was reasonably good at it, but I have grown out of that.

I have never had any interest in exchanging insults; either indulging in it myself or watching the unedifying spectacle of others doing it.

Perhaps it really is time for pastures new.


There never was nothing.
Bill S. #47759 01/22/13 05:40 PM
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Quote:
but I have grown out of that.


Donette says she doesn't agree with that. smile


There never was nothing.
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