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#45997 - 11/09/12 03:30 PM John Carter of Mars
Bill Offline
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Registered: 12/31/10
Posts: 1858
Loc: Oklahoma, USA
Ok, I was just watching John Carter of Mars on the SYFY channel. I didn't watch the whole thing I didn't care for it that much. But one thing that really got my attention was right at the start. John Carter has been seriously wounded and is dying. But a man shows up and tells him that he is being sent to Mars. But the way it works is that they have a complete description of John that will be transmitted to Mars to recreate him when he gets there. The big kicker for me is that they have the description in 16 Gigabytes of memory. I'm afraid somebody got that wrong. I doubt if they could get a complete description of a body into 16 Terabytes of memory. The amount of information required to describe a human body is going to be enormous. It would have to include a complete description of the location of every cell in relation to all of its neighbors and all of the nerve connections in the brain. There are around 100 billion neurons in the brain. The number of interconnections between them is much larger.

Of course there were a lot of other problems with the transmission, but that was the one that jumped up and grabbed me.

Bill Gill
_________________________
C is not the speed of light in a vacuum.
C is the universal speed limit.

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#45998 - 11/09/12 06:55 PM Re: John Carter of Mars [Re: Bill]
Bill S. Offline
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Registered: 08/20/10
Posts: 3570
Loc: Essex, UK
Damn!!! I wish I had watched it before you said that, Bill.

It's OK though; I'll watch it with my wife. She will be able to explain how it works without any of this scientific rubbish getting in the way. laugh

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#46001 - 11/09/12 08:23 PM Re: John Carter of Mars [Re: Bill S.]
Bill Offline
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Registered: 12/31/10
Posts: 1858
Loc: Oklahoma, USA
Sorry to have ruined it for you Bill. To help out I didn't talk about any of the other things that didn't look quite right. But then the book didn't look quite right either, so that isn't too unusual. It doesn't look too much different from what I remember from reading it. Of course it has been a long time since I read it so I can't give any details. I recognized some names though.

Bill Gill
_________________________
C is not the speed of light in a vacuum.
C is the universal speed limit.

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#46010 - 11/10/12 05:20 AM Re: John Carter of Mars [Re: Bill]
paul Offline
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Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4135
Quote:
SYFY channel.


science fiction
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3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#46454 - 12/04/12 02:18 AM Re: John Carter of Mars [Re: paul]
Orac Offline
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Registered: 05/20/11
Posts: 2819
Loc: Currently Illinois, USA
The human genome is 3G base pair long (ref: http://www.ornl.gov/sci/techresources/Human_Genome/home.shtml)

Thats 4 base pairs needing 2 bits to encode so you can transcribe a full human DNA in 6GB of data.

Bit of data for describing your age etc to grow the DNA synthesis too and any other key phyiscal descriptions you need like scars, diseases and the like.

Perfectly doable so long as you didnt want your memories or your current personality ... for some on this forum that would be preferrable :-)

The human brain contains 100 trillion synapses so if you wanted to transmit whats in your brain you need to transmit each and every one and that is a little bit out of your range even with compression!!!!!!


Edited by Orac (12/04/12 02:21 AM)
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I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.

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#46461 - 12/04/12 03:00 PM Re: John Carter of Mars [Re: Orac]
paul Offline
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Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4135


humans have 24 chromosomes !!!!! 1 through 22 plus X and Y

your post means nothing.

you cannot record a humans DNA on (6 GB of DATA)

Quote:
Thats 4 base pairs needing 2 bits to encode so you can transcribe a full human DNA in 6GB of data.


the human body has apx 100 trillion cells each of which
contain 46 chromosomes.

the human body also has ten times as many micro organisms
in the intestines ... etc

6 GB of data could not store the amount of information needed
to use to rebuild a single human cell and have all the parts
in the right place and place that cell in the right place.

you are an idiot , thankfully you are just a K12 teacher
who cannot harm us with your poser intellect.

you must get internet privilege's every 7 days or so.

sounds like a lot of speculation is involved.





_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#46462 - 12/04/12 03:30 PM Re: John Carter of Mars [Re: paul]
Orac Offline
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Registered: 05/20/11
Posts: 2819
Loc: Currently Illinois, USA
Oh I forgot your stupid GOD blows us up like blow up dolls DNA plays no roll in our lives ;-)

Still can't say anything without an insult ... team hug ... I really really want to be your friend :-)

I feel sorry for you Paul you really do have some issues and compassion, tolerance and understanding are supposed to be virtues of religion and you fail at all of them.

Lets do some Kumbaya singing together and make it all better

Someone's crying, my Lord, kum bay ya;
Someone's crying, my Lord, kum bay ya;
Someone's crying, my Lord, kum bay ya,
O Lord, kum bay ya.


Edited by Orac (12/04/12 03:39 PM)
_________________________
I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.

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#46465 - 12/04/12 08:20 PM Re: John Carter of Mars [Re: paul]
Bill Offline
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Registered: 12/31/10
Posts: 1858
Loc: Oklahoma, USA
Originally Posted By: Paul
you cannot record a humans DNA on (6 GB of DATA)

Quote:
Thats 4 base pairs needing 2 bits to encode so you can transcribe a full human DNA in 6GB of data.



the human body has apx 100 trillion cells each of which
contain 46 chromosomes.

6 GB of data could not store the amount of information needed
to use to rebuild a single human cell and have all the parts
in the right place and place that cell in the right place.

Paul, it doesn't matter how many cells there are in the body. The DNA is the same in all the cells. The difference between cells depends on how the genes are expressed. This depends on the exact environment in which the cell finds itself when it is first created by division from its parent cell. A brain cell for example becomes a brain cell because it is surrounded by brain cells. The same for all the other tissues in the body. So you only need one copy of the DNA of an individual to recreate the body of that individual. However, when you had done that you would only have a sort of an empty body. There would be no individuality for the body and it would be totally uneducated. The individuality of the body is what would require huge amounts of memory, which is approximately what Orac said.

I make this reply just so that the gentle readers can keep up with the facts, rather than what Paul keeps saying are facts.

Bill Gill
_________________________
C is not the speed of light in a vacuum.
C is the universal speed limit.

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#46473 - 12/05/12 12:05 AM Re: John Carter of Mars [Re: Bill]
Orac Offline
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Registered: 05/20/11
Posts: 2819
Loc: Currently Illinois, USA
Paul would never accept that Bill that involves cells evolving so the DNA in every cell has to be different for him.

I am pretty sure for Paul we would be born with all the cells already formed and god uses the blow up doll mechanism to make us bigger which is what happens when you grow.

I am sure Paul can give you a full story of how science got it all wrong and the blow up doll human is the correct explanaination.

For those who don't believe the blow up doll god yes all cells have the same DNA and memory is a little tricky and still under debate a recent article on it will help as a reference

http://medicalxpress.com/news/2012-12-brain-cells.html


Edited by Orac (12/05/12 01:33 AM)
_________________________
I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.

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#46507 - 12/06/12 12:55 AM Re: John Carter of Mars [Re: Bill]
paul Offline
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Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4135
Quote:
Paul, it doesn't matter how many cells there are in the body. The DNA is the same in all the cells.


Quote:
A single unit of DNA is called a nucleotide.
A nucleotide is made up of a pentose sugar called deoxy ribose, a nitrogenous base and a phosphate group.

Each molecule of deoxyribose has 5 carbon atoms + 10 hydrogen atoms + 4 oxygen atoms
= 19 atoms


Quote:
There are four kinds of nitrogenous bases in DNA:
Adenine, thymine, guanine, cytosine
Adenine has 8 atoms in it
Guanine has 16 atoms
Thymine has 6 atoms
Cytosine has 7 atoms

Phosphate group has about 4 atoms.



Quote:
the average DNA strand in humans contains about 440 million of these nucleotides.



Quote:
So, the total number of atoms in the DNA strand would be
440 million x number of atoms in each nucleotide.


that leaves you with this problem.

Quote:
each nucleotide may have
19 + 8 + 4 = 31 atoms
OR
19+16+4 = 39 atoms
OR
19+6+4= 29 atoms
OR
19+7+4 = 30 atoms.


440 million x any of the above number of atoms = more than 6 billion atoms.
even if there were only 6 billion atoms in a single strand of DNA that only leaves you with 1 BYTE of data for each atom in
the strand , and that does not include the positioning of those 6 billion atoms , you could not place that strand in its correct position.

you could not build a single strand of DNA from 6 GB of data.

Quote:
This depends on the exact environment in which the cell finds itself when it is first created by division from its parent cell.


But Bill , were not discussing splitting cells , were discussing building a man from stored data.

Quote:
which is approximately what Orac said.


I don't consider what orac says as having any validity.






_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#46512 - 12/06/12 03:05 AM Re: John Carter of Mars [Re: paul]
Bill Offline
Megastar

Registered: 12/31/10
Posts: 1858
Loc: Oklahoma, USA
Originally Posted By: paul
Quote:
A single unit of DNA is called a nucleotide.
A nucleotide is made up of a pentose sugar called deoxy ribose, a nitrogenous base and a phosphate group.

Each molecule of deoxyribose has 5 carbon atoms + 10 hydrogen atoms + 4 oxygen atoms
= 19 atoms


Quote:
There are four kinds of nitrogenous bases in DNA:
Adenine, thymine, guanine, cytosine
Adenine has 8 atoms in it
Guanine has 16 atoms
Thymine has 6 atoms
Cytosine has 7 atoms

Phosphate group has about 4 atoms.



Quote:
the average DNA strand in humans contains about 440 million of these nucleotides.



Quote:
So, the total number of atoms in the DNA strand would be
440 million x number of atoms in each nucleotide.

you could not build a single strand of DNA from 6 GB of data.


But Paul, you don't need to code for each atom. You only need to code for the number of nucleotides, since there are only 4 nucleotides. Each nucleotide of a given type consists of the same atoms. So when you want to build a DNA molecule all you have to do is say put the nucleotides in order: G A T G ................. When you say G you automatically know what atoms go in it. So there is no need to program all those atoms individually. All you need is a stockpile of the nucleotides to put into the chain as called for.

So once again gentle readers you see that Paul pays no attention to reality. Including the reality that both Orac and I have said that the DNA is the least of the problems with duplication a human being. The actual configuration of all the various interconnections in the brain that constitute our personalities is humongously large.

Bill Gill
_________________________
C is not the speed of light in a vacuum.
C is the universal speed limit.

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#46514 - 12/06/12 03:16 AM Re: John Carter of Mars [Re: paul]
Orac Offline
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Registered: 05/20/11
Posts: 2819
Loc: Currently Illinois, USA
Originally Posted By: paul

I don't consider what orac says as having any validity.



Oh honey give me a big kiss I love you big sexy beast.

But for the record even for someone as slow as you you must realise you don't need to record the atoms

ready I will do it real slow so you can follow

4 nucleotides = Adenine, thymine, guanine, cytosine

Write them as a letter A, T, G, C

Now you can tramsit a DNA sequence as simply a series of letters

Here is the Phage Lambda virus DNA sequence

http://www.cf.ac.uk/biosi/staffinfo/ehrmann/tools/dna/PhageLambda.html

Thats all you need to synthesize it because you know what A, T, G and C mean in terms of atoms it science shorthand.


Complicated I know now lets take this to a computer and use 2 computer bits


00 = A
01 = T
10 = G
11 = C

Here is the first 12 base pairs GGGCGGCGACCT and in my computer code it would be

GGGCGGCGACCT = 10 10 10 11 10 10 11 10 00 11 11 01

or simply 101010111010111000111101


Edited by Orac (12/06/12 03:16 AM)
_________________________
I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.

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#46523 - 12/06/12 04:41 AM Re: John Carter of Mars [Re: Orac]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4135
Quote:
Thats 4 base pairs needing 2 bits to encode so you can transcribe a full human DNA in 6GB of data.


transcribe

a : to make a written copy of

by using the data stored on a computer you would not be
transcribing a full human DNA in 6 GB of data.

the data would first have to be stored on the computer.
you are talking about using 6 GB of instructions to a
computer program that interprets the 6 GB of data and
links that data to the stored data on the computer.

your (4) 2 digit numbers would take up 1 BYTE.

6 GB would allow you to have 24 billion instruction's (2) bits long.

Quote:
John Carter has been seriously wounded and is dying. But a man shows up and tells him that he is being sent to Mars. But the way it works is that they have a complete description of John that will be transmitted to Mars to recreate him when he gets there. The big kicker for me is that they have the description in 16 Gigabytes of memory.


what information would you store on the 6 GB data disk?

ie...

given that all the needed reconstruction data is already stored on a computer on mars.

all you really need to do is to send the instructions to
re build john carter on mars so he wont die.

there are apx 100 trillion cells in the human body.

how would you use 6 GB of data to instruct the computer on mars to re build john carter?



_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#46525 - 12/06/12 04:56 AM Re: John Carter of Mars [Re: paul]
Orac Offline
Megastar

Registered: 05/20/11
Posts: 2819
Loc: Currently Illinois, USA
Surely you are just trolling ... ready real slow again for you

8 bits of data fit in a BYTE of data thats what it is by definition.

Or if you want 4 of our shorthand letters would fit into a computer BYTE.

So you can check the answer 2 ways

FIRST WAY:

So if you want storage in BYTES my 6G BITS would become 0.75G BYTES of data.

So its not a x4 expansion to 24G its a x8 compaction to 0.75G BYTE of computer storage.


SECOND CHECK:

We need 3G of letter shorthand we fit 4 letters per 8 bit BYTE

3G/4 = 0.75GB


FAILING ALL THAT DO A GOOGLE CHECK

6 gigabits in bytes enter it

A file size of 6,000,000,000 bits can also be expressed as
6,000,000,000 .......... bits
750,000,000 .......... bytes
732,421.875 ...... kilobytes
715.2557373046 megabytes
0.6984919309 gigabytes
0.000682121 terabytes
0.0000006661 petabytes
0.0000000006 exabytes

I am assuming that since it was going to Mars it was transmitted as a BIT stream I don't know I havent seen the movie ask Bill.

If it was stored 0.75G BYTE easily fits DVD you might squeeze it on a CD just. I guess and you can take it with you on a rocket.


Edited by Orac (12/06/12 05:41 AM)
_________________________
I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.

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#46532 - 12/06/12 02:09 PM Re: John Carter of Mars [Re: Orac]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4135
olac intelligence

Quote:
So if you want storage in BYTES my 6G BITS would become 0.75G BYTES of data.

So its not a x4 expansion to 24G its a x8 compaction to 0.75G BYTE of computer storage.



you used a capital B

Originally Posted By: sagg's resident bad boy idiot
Thats 4 base pairs needing 2 bits to encode so you can transcribe a full human DNA in 6GB of data.


6GB

a small b is used to represent bits.
a capitol B is used to represent BYTES

6 GB = 48 billion bits

therefore the remainder of your post is invalid.

here you are after you were transcribed and re-built using your
technique.

I put the eyes in just for kicks







_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#46533 - 12/06/12 03:34 PM Re: John Carter of Mars [Re: paul]
Orac Offline
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Registered: 05/20/11
Posts: 2819
Loc: Currently Illinois, USA
Ah honey pie you do make me laugh at times.

Sorry your Gb or Gbit does appear to be correct in the memory storage standand sorry not being from that industry I do not naturally adhere to that standard I shall attempt to improve in this area.

So while I conceed if the number was given in isolation it may have lead to confusion it was obvious how to do the calculation and what was meant and how it is done.

I note you even got it wrong in your post putting it up as 24Gb so what did you fail at multiplying or make an error yourself?

So basically yes you are correct I wrote 6GB incorrectly but then as I stated the rest of your argument was nothing but a troll which is the story of all your posts.

You really need to grow up and get a life sweatie ... love and kisses.


Edited by Orac (12/06/12 03:37 PM)
_________________________
I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.

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#46534 - 12/06/12 04:28 PM Re: John Carter of Mars [Re: Orac]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4135
owrong

Originally Posted By: sagg's always wrong resident bad boy clown
I note you even got it wrong in your post putting it up as 24Gb so what did you fail at multiplying or make an error yourself?]


Quote:
6 GB would allow you to have 24 billion instruction's (2) bits long.


48 billion bits / 2 bits = 24 billion bits.

Quote:
Complicated I know now lets take this to a computer and use 2 computer bits


00 = A
01 = T
10 = G
11 = C


you are lacking in your data transcribing program design anyway , a computer program would not need to use 2 bits of data to describe a single word or letter or DNA string.

a computer program could interpret a single bit of data
as being anything you choose and could link that bit of data
to a enormous amount of data.

so being the helpful person that I am , you could get 8 instructions to fit into 1 BYTE of data.

6 billion bits x 8 bits = 48 billion bits to use to store instructions.

the usual way of placing something in a box uses 3 co-ordinates x,y,z

your rebuilding of john carter would require a coordinate system that is stored in the 6 GB of data.

how would you put the first cell into position in the box
without knowing where to put it?

you would be rebuilding john carter on an atomic scale I presume , so your 6 GB of data would not account for a single cubic millimeter of space within that box.












_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#46535 - 12/06/12 04:37 PM Re: John Carter of Mars [Re: paul]
Orac Offline
Megastar

Registered: 05/20/11
Posts: 2819
Loc: Currently Illinois, USA
Originally Posted By: paul


48 billion bits / 2 bits = 24 billion bits.


That is wrong if you are going to be anal and adhere to computer memory storage standards

48 billion bits / 2 bits = 24 billion HALF NIBBLES or 24 billion SEMI-NIBBLES

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nibble)

=> The term "semi-nibble" is used to refer to a 2-bit collection, or half a nibble

48 billion bits is 48 million bits if you section in 2 bits which are HALF NIBBLES then you have 24 billion HALF NIBBLES or 24 billion SEMI-NIBBLES

But see that would be trolling anal when I really did get what you meant although what you wrote was wrong according to the industry standard we are anally adhering to.

I do however get how you derived the figure now.

Trolling on analness is so easy my snookie wookie but all the analness is getting me hot and bothered.


Edited by Orac (12/06/12 04:53 PM)
_________________________
I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.

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#46537 - 12/06/12 04:57 PM Re: John Carter of Mars [Re: paul]
Orac Offline
Megastar

Registered: 05/20/11
Posts: 2819
Loc: Currently Illinois, USA
Originally Posted By: paul


the usual way of placing something in a box uses 3 co-ordinates x,y,z

your rebuilding of john carter would require a coordinate system that is stored in the 6 GB of data.

how would you put the first cell into position in the box
without knowing where to put it?

you would be rebuilding john carter on an atomic scale I presume , so your 6 GB of data would not account for a single cubic millimeter of space within that box.



Paul you really don't get DNA do you its is self aligning that is why it forms a DNA helix




No alignment needed chemistry does it all for you all you need to know is the base pairs AGTC

So forget all the 3D positioning stuff the DNA will auto position the atoms and it will all magically jump into the right position.

If you want a detailed background try (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_genetic_sequence#Digital_format) and then the artificial generation of DNA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_gene_synthesis)

But basically this sentence says it all

Quote:

While the ability to make increasingly long stretches of DNA efficiently and at lower prices is a technological driver of this field, increasingly attention is being focused on improving the design of genes for specific purposes. Early in the genome sequencing era, gene synthesis was used as an (expensive) source of cDNA's that were predicted by genomic or partial cDNA information but were difficult to clone. As higher quality sources of sequence verified cloned cDNA have become available, this practice has become less urgent.


Edited by Orac (12/06/12 05:04 PM)
_________________________
I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.

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#46538 - 12/06/12 05:01 PM Re: John Carter of Mars [Re: Orac]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4135
oderangedone

from your link !!!
you should have read it , and comprehended it as well.

Quote:
As a nibble contains 4 bits


BTW : because you obviously didn't know a BYTE contains 8 bits.

Originally Posted By: LOL@olacintelligence
48 billion bits / 2 bits = 24 billion HALF NIBBLES or 24 billion SEMI-NIBBLES


no , it would be 24 billion nibbles.

not half , not semi

because a nibble contain's 4 bits.


_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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