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#46509 - 12/06/12 01:44 AM Re: Why do some people resist science? [Re: Revlgking]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Originally Posted By: Revlgking
Agape is a neutral.
It is neither positive, negative or neutral. It can be all three, or none of them at all.
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#46510 - 12/06/12 02:19 AM Re: Why do some people resist science? [Re: Revlgking]
Orac Offline
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Originally Posted By: Revlgking

Orac, how do you feel about revealing the roots of your family? Are you of Russian ancestry?


Definitely not Russian you would be insulting me if you said that.

If you go right back my roots are Transoxiania which is an area which is basically parts of Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Kyrgystan and Kazakhstan.

Around the time of christ you would say my family was from Sogdiana.

In modern western countries we were often called persian but that is a very broad term incorporating hundreds of races over what was the Achaemenid Persian Empire which includes countries like Iran, Greece, Libya, Macedonia right up to Pakistan.

The home I grew up in is in Uzbekistan but my grand parents live in Tajikistan and I have family in almost all the neighboring countries.

Under Russian control we were forbidden from speaking in our native tongue it was punished brutally. The situation still presists in Uzbekistan today you will find this even noted in wikipedia with relation to Tajik people but it is true of any ethnic minority.

At the breakup of the soviet union I like millions of others from throughout the USSR had to flee. I had ethnic minority problems but I was also under forced repatriation to Russia orders as they had invested to much time in my education.

I initially fled with a group of jewish friends to Israel from there I was given political asylum in Australia and now on to USA. Australia was suggested to me by USA officials it wasn't my first choice. I suspect because USA were trying to patch up relations with Russia they did not want to directly give me political asylum.


Originally Posted By: Revlgking

BTW, how much have you read of the Hebrew and/or English Bible?


Not that much I have alot of religious ground to cover and not much spare time. I go on break in a week so I will get a chance to perhaps make a dent.

I am however really interested the religion of my ancestory first which is Zoroastrianism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism). I have a friend of friend (7 degrees of seperation type thing) who practices the faith coming from Sydney Australia of all places over the New Year.

I am hoping they aren't holding out too much hope of converting me but no doubt I will be doing some feverish background so I might not get a chance this break.


I am going to have to get back to you on the love subject I will need to do some reading your context is a bit weird to me in English and I need to work through it ... sorry that language thing.

Perhaps it would be faster if I ask is it any of these 2 which are islamic in nature

Ishq-e Haq'qi which literally means "the real love" but metaphorically it means "the love of God". It refers to the belief that only God is worth loving and He is the only one who can return His creature's love for Him.

Ishq-e Maj'zi which literally means "metaphorical love". It refers to the love for God's creation i.e. love of a man for a woman or another man and vice versa. It is said to be generated by beloved person's external beauty.


In my cultural roots it gets harder we don't have love as a generic term we have very specific terms.

If you look at the wikipedia definition of love even they have it wrong in respect to persians and they have piles of citations needed requests. It is an extremely complex translation to try and bring into english.

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love)

This bit is true

"In the Persian culture, everything is encompassed by love and all is for love, starting from loving friends and family, husbands and wives, and eventually reaching the divine love that is the ultimate goal in life"

Now try and differentiate what you are calling love from that and I will probably understand your meaning.



Edited by Orac (12/06/12 02:21 AM)
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#46513 - 12/06/12 03:10 AM Re: Why do some people resist science? [Re: Bill]
Revlgking Offline
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Orac: Here is Paul's POEM on AGAPE-LOVE
Quote:
1 Corinthians 13

AGAPE-LOVE IS: The Power to WILL Good
==============================

1 What if I could speak
all languages
of humans
and of angels?
If I did not love others,
I would be nothing more
than a noisy gong
or a clanging cymbal.
====
2 What if I could prophesy
and understand all secrets
and all knowledge?
And what if I had faith
that moved mountains?
I would be nothing,
unless I loved others.
====
3 What if I gave away all
that I owned
and let myself
be burned alive?
I would gain nothing,
unless I loved others.
====
4 Love is kind and patient,
never jealous, boastful,
proud, or
====
5 rude.
Love isn’t selfish
or quick tempered.
It doesn’t keep a record
of wrongs that others do.
====
6 Love rejoices in the truth,
but not in evil.
====
7 Love is always supportive,
loyal, hopeful,
and trusting.
====
8 Love never fails!
Everyone who prophesies
will stop,
and unknown languages
will no longer
be spoken.
All that we know
will be forgotten.
====
9 We don’t know everything,
and our prophecies
are not complete.
====
10 But what is perfect
will someday appear,
and what isn’t perfect
will then disappear.
====
11 When we were children,
we thought and reasoned
as children do.
But when we grew up,
we quit our childish ways.
====
12 Now all we can see of God
is like a cloudy picture
in a mirror.
Later we will see him
face to face.
We don’t know everything,
but then we will,
just as God completely
understands us.
====
13 For now there are faith,
hope, and love.
But of these three,
the greatest is love.

===================
Agape-Love is the greatest power because:
It focuses on the physical, mental and spiritual good that we believe in and desire.

IT IS GOOD WILLPOWER CREATIVELY APPLIED, WITHOUT CONDITIONS, TO EVERYONE WE MEET AND TO ALL CIRCUMSTANCES.



Edited by Revlgking (12/06/12 04:14 AM)
Edit Reason: Always helpful
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#46515 - 12/06/12 03:24 AM Re: Why do some people resist science? [Re: Revlgking]
Orac Offline
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Ok got it but that doesn't really work for me at a cultural level because you are joining up different things.

It probably works in english because of the width of the word love but as sort of an explanation if I told you I am giving some width to the word car and infact I now make it so wide all planes are cars.

See a plane transports people a car transports people they are henceforth the same now a car.

I am guessing that causes you a problem because you have a much more concise meaning and a plane isn't a car.

Thats what you are doing to me I now understand what you mean but I can't really answer the question because your width of the word love causes me problems.

I tried to translate the poem but it becomes mindless gibberish I am sorry have you got any islamic people in your church perhaps they can translate it and I can probably work it from there.


Edited by Orac (12/06/12 03:54 AM)
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#46516 - 12/06/12 03:59 AM Re: Why do some people resist science? [Re: Orac]
Orac Offline
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Ok forget it Rev K that won't translate it's not just me

http://islamicamagazine.com/?p=810

That explains the problem and although I am not islamic as you know my cultural roots are similar and I have the same issues.

=> The Arabic word for agape’is mahubba

Sorry but I have no translation of that sufi word and infact I have never heard it used.


Edited by Orac (12/06/12 04:04 AM)
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#46517 - 12/06/12 04:03 AM Re: Why do some people resist science? [Re: Orac]
Revlgking Offline
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Originally Posted By: Orac
... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love)

This bit is true

"In the Persian culture, everything is encompassed by love and all is for love, starting from loving friends and family, husbands and wives, and eventually reaching the divine love that is the ultimate goal in life"

Now try and differentiate what you are calling love from that and I will probably understand your meaning.

Orac, interestingly, you say "In the Persian culture, everything is encompassed by love ..."

Farah, the wife (since 1987) of our only son--they met at York University, here in Toronto--and the mother of our three wonderful grandchildren (two girls and a boy)--is from the Persian culture. We share a lot of love-based cultural values.


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#46518 - 12/06/12 04:10 AM Re: Why do some people resist science? [Re: Revlgking]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Originally Posted By: Revlgking

Agape-Love is the greatest power because:
It focuses on the physical, mental and spiritual good that we believe in and desire and applies willpower.

No. It gives no special support or focus to what we believe is greater than another's idea of good or reality. It's like water which floats a boat regardless of whether it is filled with good or bad intentions.
Or slips around a rock as it flows as a river without bashing itself against the rock.
It supports all choices without investing itself in the outcome, giving freedom to choice, and the experiences following choice.
This allows for growth and experience in contrast of beliefs in relative applications of the ego and its identification with one scenario or another as being either good in varying degrees or bad in varying degrees.

A misplaced step can be seen as bad if it creates a fall. However it can be seen as good if the fall creates an impression to pay attention to where footing is placed. So unconditional love of the universe allows for something and everything without giving focus or special attention to anything.

Only man determines in his own mind a value of God and the reflection of God.

What God sees is simply God.

Man without the experience of God sees his own interpretations of what is God and not God.
Originally Posted By: Revlgking
WILLPOWER APPLIED, WITHOUT CONDITIONS, TO EVERYONE WE MEET AND TO ALL CIRCUMSTANCES WILL CREATE MIRACLES.
Ridiculous. Will without any direction or intent has no power at all.

Intent to create something when asleep or awake is going to have a different outcome. Same as the intent directed from where you are (emotional state, Intellectual state, State of Consciousness, State of health and perception) has different outcomes based on the box you live in and what you can project.

Your definitions of Good also have a different parameters based on beliefs.
Mother Theresa and Charles Manson had a bit of a difference in their interpretations of Good.

What you think is good for another may not be what God has in mind for that person.(The reason why Jesus didn't Heal Lazarus before he died and subsequently waited until he had finished his own program to meet death)
God does not intervene or meddle in the will of the spirit of man.

Man however assumes what is best for others, and often without knowing what is best for himself.
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#46519 - 12/06/12 04:13 AM Re: Why do some people resist science? [Re: Revlgking]
Orac Offline
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Loc: Currently Illinois, USA
Yes love and caring are very deep rooted in our culture because we have no social security system and this is what binds society together.

Hence you have to be careful calling it love in the classic romantic sense because there is also an element of insurance and respect ideals in it.

As I said english concept of love is very broad and actually crosses many terms for me.

When you bring it into religion in islamic regions there is another issue that crops up under your broad definition of love "the fear of god" will translate to love.

The Love of God, and the Fear of God, are two of the foundations of Islam and so are not seperable under your broad definition of love.

To give you some idea at a crass level here is number 8 rewritten with the above as insight.

8 "The fear of god" never fails!
Everyone who prophesies will stop, and unknown languages will no longer be spoken.
All that we know will be forgotten.


Hopefully you can begin to see what happens when I try and translate that.


Edited by Orac (12/06/12 04:32 AM)
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#46521 - 12/06/12 04:32 AM Re: Why do some people resist science? [Re: Orac]
Revlgking Offline
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Originally Posted By: Orac
Yes love and caring are very deep rooted in our culture ...

Hence you have to be careful calling it love in the classic romantic sense ...
Agreed. Agape-love, love without conditions, is not to be confused with eros (romantic love), from which we get our word "erotic", which comes with a lot of conditions. The word philos (friendship love) also has conditions.
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#46522 - 12/06/12 04:36 AM Re: Why do some people resist science? [Re: Revlgking]
Orac Offline
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Yes you have two seperations there culturally I have many more such as people to non human or things and even human to human breaks man-man, man-woman, woman-woman have different expressions.

Culturally homosexuality had no definition so we have imported western words for that.

By the way you just answered as I edited above what do you think of the translation of item 8 of your poem above I am not sure you would like it

8 "The fear of god" never fails!
Everyone who prophesies will stop, and unknown languages will no longer be spoken.
All that we know will be forgotten.


Edited by Orac (12/06/12 04:37 AM)
_________________________
I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.

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#46524 - 12/06/12 04:46 AM Re: Why do some people resist science? [Re: Orac]
Revlgking Offline
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Quote:
8 "The fear of god" never fails!
Everyone who prophesies will stop, and unknown languages will no longer be spoken.
All that we know will be forgotten.
The Old English word "fear" can be translated in modern English as "loving respect".
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#46526 - 12/06/12 05:07 AM Re: Why do some people resist science? [Re: Revlgking]
Orac Offline
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Originally Posted By: Revlgking

The Old English word "fear" can be translated in modern English as "loving respect".


That may make sense to you but I would never make that connection.

Ask you daughter in law Farah to translate "Fear no evil" and tell you what it means :-)
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#46531 - 12/06/12 01:09 PM Re: Why do some people resist science? [Re: Orac]
Orac Offline
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Can I ask is your Daughter in law muslim as that might be problematic with your faith and position and I assume you know why.
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I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.

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#46550 - 12/06/12 08:01 PM Re: Why do some people resist science? [Re: Bill]
Bill S. Offline
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A small digression that might add another facet to the ideas of love:

“To love” is normally translated into Latin as “amare”. However, in some texts, especially in the RC Church, when it refers to loving God, “diligere” (to choose) is often used instead.
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#46569 - 12/07/12 12:24 AM Re: Why do some people resist science? [Re: Orac]
Revlgking Offline
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Originally Posted By: Orac
[quote=Revlgking]
The Old English word "fear" can be translated in modern English as "loving respect".
Orac, you say: "That may make sense to you, but I would never make that connection."
Quote:
Orac: Thanks for this opportunity to have a meaningful dialogue with you--someone who was born and raised in a culture totally different from that of Canada and the USA.
======================
Speaking of cultural differences: The Newfoundland (NL) in which I grew up--from 1930-1947--was culturally different from mainland Canada at that time. Because many of us thought of England as the motherland, we thought of ourselves as British.

Despite this, following WW 2 a strong movement--motivated by the belief that the political and economic future of NL was with North America--organized and started a successful campaign for confederation with Canada. In 1949--by a slim majority--NL agreed to confederate with Canada.

Looking back, I later came to realize that what helped bring about this historic event was the NL university students--that is, students past and present--who did their studies in Canadian universities. At the time there was no university in Newfoundland. Today it has one of the best in Canada.

In the Spring of 1949, at 19 and a junior, I was one of the NL students studying at Mount Allison University, Sackville, Newbrunswick, Canada www.mta.ca . No wonder those of us who supported him were among the first to meet and greet the newest father of confederation, Premier Joseph R. Smallwood, and the first premier, who came to thank all who supported his cause.
================================
Now for some questions:
QUESTIONS THAT COME TO MIND
In what language were you raised?
Just one?
Your first contact with English was?
What about your first contacts with Islam, Judaism, Christianity, etc.?
=========================================
With the above in mind
LET US TALK ABOUT THE SOCIAL SCIENCES. Or do we resist them, like we do the natural ones, like maths, physics and chemistry? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_science

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_social_sciences
The main social sciences include:

Anthropology
Communication
Criminology
Cultural studies
Economics
Education
History
Human geography
Linguistics
Law (but see below)
Political science
Psychology (but see below)
Social psychology
Sociology
Social work
=====================
let us have a talk about the above. Or, if you want we can have a debate, or a dialogue about the best way to govern ourselves individually or collectively, as the family, the tribe, the clan, the town, city, the province, the nation whatever. Agreed?

REGARDING POLITICAL SCIENCE: As a theologian, I of course think that the best form of government could be
A THEOCRACYBut hear me out, and don't jump to conclusions yet.

Note: At this point I am not advocating that any system is better than the other, I am simply describing each. So let us begin with Theocracy.

FIRST CAME DAD--the patriarch. Then came the chief who wanted to be head of the kin--that is, king--or monarch.

Then came Theocracy ...

Monarchy has been around since the first witchdoctor convinced the first king, or chief of the tribe that, without the clergy, monarchy would not last. He was right.

In many parts of the world, the monarchy did not last. However, it has lasted in nations with leaders who were wise enough to create a "constitutional monarchy". For example, the kind we have in Canada, via mother England.

Meanwhile, if you are asking me: "Are you THEOCRATIC now?" Here is my answer:

I could become a practical theocrat when, and if, I find a god who is willing to become one of us--like Jesus agreed to be--one willing to step out of the supernatural, out of the Bible, the Koran and all the so-called sacred literature.

Perhaps such a god will agree to join us on the internet and, thereby, agree to have a dialogue with us--one on one.
This could be a lot of fun, eh? smile It could even lead to a secular kind of religion that is not attached to any one organized and dogmatic religion. Check out the book by Alain de Botton, of Switzerland

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2012/03/26/f-vp-handler-botton-atheists.html
=======================================
So much could be added to the above, but, not wanting to be too verbose, here I will stop. Read the following, at your leisure, OK?
============================

There are those who suggest:
WHAT IS WRONG WITH DEMOCRACY as it is?
WHAT'S WRONG WITH HAVING SOCIAL LEADERS DEBATING THE ISSUES AND THEN PROPOSING SOLUTIONS?Let both wings

--the conservative, right-wing, market-based social capitalists

and the left-wing socialists--tell us what they think are the issues of the day and what are the options for solutions needed.

Then let them duke it out on the hustings as to who is the best candidate to deal with them.

Then the voters can decide which candidates are the brightest, the most honest, the most civil and the best statesmen who should be elected to run our government.

Nothing is basically wrong with the idea, but the problem is the system: finding enough of the kind mentioned above. What's wrong is the system

MOST DEBATES ARE ZERO-SUM GAMES--and usually end with arrogant winners and bitter losersAnd look at the number of rebellions and civil wars are.

Who among us can sincerely say that we are truly proud of the way the governments of the world, including the United Nations and the government of Canada and the USA, debate the issues and then decide how best to serve the public good?

A DIALOGUE IS NOT ABOUT WINNING/LOSING, IT IS ABOUT CREATING AND SHARING VALUES FOR ALL TO ENJOY

IMO, having the kind of dialogue--one that is transparent enough for all to understand--is the best way to bring out the values we hope to create and to share so as to openly deal with the serious issues of life. people to sow the seeds of peace and, because the goal is reap a harvest that feeds all with joy.
================
Then you ask me to
Quote:
Ask you daughter in law, Farah, to translate "Fear no evil" and tell you what it means smile
I will. She speaks English very well. Of course, she also speaks Farsi and teaches Farsi speakers to speak good English.


Edited by Revlgking (12/07/12 04:56 AM)
Edit Reason: Always helpful
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#46571 - 12/07/12 01:03 AM Re: Why do some people resist science? [Re: Revlgking]
Orac Offline
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Originally Posted By: Revlgking

I will. She speaks English very well. Of course, she also speaks Farsi and teaches Farsi speakers to speak good English.


I will need time to digest the larger text sections above.

Farsi is a modern dialect it may translate better and I am not fluent in it to try.

If she knows older dialects she will probably get close to the translation I come up with

I get something like Cautious of disaster where disaster is personal.

I don't think thats what it really means in the bible context is it.
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#46598 - 12/08/12 04:03 AM Re: Why do some people resist science? [Re: Orac]
Revlgking Offline
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Originally Posted By: Orac
Originally Posted By: Revlgking

The Old English word "fear" can be translated in modern English as "loving respect and awe".
That may make sense to you but I would never make that connection.
Ask you daughter in law Farah to translate "Fear no evil" and tell you what it means smile

I asked Farah about the meaning of "fear" in farsi;. She told me that there are several meanings--positive and negative. Negatively used, it can mean terror and fright.

However, when used positively, it usually means to take care because, take warning of and be cautious about--things, like fire, that can cause harm.

One of the Hebrew proverbs, 1:07, in Old English is "The fear of the Lord (keeper of bread) is the beginning of wisdom." In modern English it is: "The respect for the Lord ..."

We get 'Lord' by combining two words: loaf (of bread) and 'ward' (a warden is a keeper). Therefore a Lord is the one who stores and keep the bread safe.


Edited by Revlgking (12/08/12 04:37 AM)
Edit Reason: Always helpful
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#46610 - 12/08/12 09:50 PM Re: Why do some people resist science? [Re: Revlgking]
Revlgking Offline
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Orac: Here is a good tool for understanding English. Be sure and check out the thesaurus section. A 'thesaurus' is a treasury, or storehouse of information.

http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/fear
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#46621 - 12/09/12 11:07 AM Re: Why do some people resist science? [Re: Revlgking]
Orac Offline
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Originally Posted By: Revlgking
I asked Farah about the meaning of "fear" in farsi;. She told me that there are several meanings--positive and negative. Negatively used, it can mean terror and fright.

However, when used positively, it usually means to take care because, take warning of and be cautious about--things, like fire, that can cause harm.


Ok so the newer persians languages translate fear exactly as tajik and the older ones do.

I suspect farsi will translate no evil as something like allah or god it's relatively obvious why. The older languages translate as no personal disaster.


So I am guessing the farsi transkation would be something cautious god.


Originally Posted By: Revlgking

One of the Hebrew proverbs, 1:07, in Old English is "The fear of the Lord (keeper of bread) is the beginning of wisdom." In modern English it is: "The respect for the Lord ..."

We get 'Lord' by combining two words: loaf (of bread) and 'ward' (a warden is a keeper). Therefore a Lord is the one who stores and keep the bread safe.


I can't find an easy translation of "fear no evil" I sort of get what it means but would need to form a large expression to translate it's meaning.

Initially I was trying to negate fitnah but ethat really not what it means I worked out
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitna_(word)
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#46623 - 12/09/12 03:13 PM Re: Why do some people resist science? [Re: Orac]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Originally Posted By: Orac
... I suspect farsi will translate no evil as something like allah or god it's relatively obvious why. The older languages translate as no personal disaster.

Initially I was trying to negate fitnah but ethat really not what it means I worked out
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitna_(word)
I suspect that for good people--that is, ones who are connected to Allah (the highest power) and/or to God (the highest good, as love is)--there is no need to be afraid, fear evil. Does that make sense?

Then we can add the Greek idea, as expressed in Theos (the highest idea, all knowledge and wisdom). I try to put all three idea together.

It seems to me that all the good atheists that I have met agree that it is good to believe in good power, like the kind that science seeks, friendship and good will, and good truth and knowledge (again science).
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